USAir's MDA just made us obsolete

[eaglefly]

Geez.................

I made 110K last year at Eagle flying 37-50 seaters.

They're flying 70-seaters for 50% less than that.

Won't last long anyway, U will flop over by summer barring a miricle.

What a tragedy.

 

[dashtrash]

"Won't last long anyway, U will flop over by summer barring a miricle.

What a tragedy."



It needs to happen if pay scales like these become reality. No airline has survived long term with a culture of employee give backs. I would rather go down swinging.

 

[reepicheep]

CaptBud330,

I see the Charlotte phone tree got to you.

"I got mine", right?

 

[N813CA]

Well I must say, us as pilots should give Mesa less Crap. US Airways just lowered the bar way past that. I can't wait to see how many "MAINLINE" Guys quit once they realize they are flying 8 legs a day making 58K.

 

[surplus1]

Well I must say, us as pilots should give Mesa less Crap. US Airways just lowered the bar way past that. I can't wait to see how many "MAINLINE" Guys quit once they realize they are flying 8 legs a day making 58K.

My friend don't hold your breath waiting for them to quit. They have 1870 pilots on furlough, with not jobs. They are going to fly those 76-seat airplanes for 58K in the left seat and for 35K in the right seat.

What's more, they are going to fly the EMB-190 with 100-seats (if they last long enough to get any) for $5/hr more, which will result in their company replacing the 737's with EMB-190's.

The union's president will NOT do what he did at CCAir, he will sign the agreement (already has). ALPA isn't trying to stop the race to the bottom, ALPA is leading the race to the bottom.

This action, taken with the full support and assistance of ALPA, will result in the destruction of the CMR contract, the ASA negotiations, the XJT negotiations, and will increase the pressure for further concessions on every "regional" contract in the country, including MESA.

It will also force JetBlue to pay lower wages for the EMB-190 they have ordered in order to match them and will make AirTran take a second look at their DC9 (717) wages. It undercuts the new Independence Air 319 wages and RJ wages. It will either prevent DAL from ordering a 100-seat airplane or force the Delta pilots to match those wages.

Smell the coffee my friend, you have just been screwed by ALPA again.

When the CCAir pilots tried to "save" their airline by low balling the wages, Woerth refused to sign the contract and went to court to prevent it from happening. He said it was because he wanted to "protect" Mesa. Now that the same thing is being done by a mainline carrier, Woerth does nothing to protect any regional carrier. That's the "representation" that you get.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Once again surplus, well said!

Here is a link to ALPA's testimony:
http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/ccairdecl.pdf

While not industry leading, the CCAir TA would have been better than this MAA agreement. I guess it is easy to sacrifice a small pilot group that doesn't pay much in dues.

 

[Ligeirinho]

Ok I am working at mesa making 1400 a month net 1600 gross make your math...
How that can be better than 35K/y?? does someone can explain me also my friends on crashpad 3 years almost 4 at MESA as F/O and dont' make even 33K/y on their w/2's...
still asking who can explain me how 35k is samleer and wrost than 33K and that is after 3 years.
so I really don't where are your minds

 

[typhoonpilot]

I finally agree with Surplus1 on something. These rates are a joke and will have severe repurcussions on the industry. The EMB-170 and EMB-190 are nothing less than narrow body replacement jets. This is a bad precedent.

Bud, I can't believe you would support an MEC that gave away your pension. You guys are pathetic. Grow a backbone and stand up for something for once.


Typhoonpilot

 

[General Lee]

You guys need to lay off "Alpa" in general. Do you think they are trying to hold the wages up at Delta? Yes they are. Even if we do give some back, we will still be higher paid than most, and that is because of Alpa. The USAir MEC has let you down, not the whole union. USAir is floundering, and that MEC probably didn't have much choice, but normally ALPA would not agree with that.

As far as the USAir MDA pay rates---I think they $uck. I am dissapointed too. This will result in major pressure on all future 70 seat rates, and some contracts currently up for renewal. (ASA) That agreement really did lower the bar AGAIN.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Ok I am working at mesa making 1400 a month net 1600 gross make your math...

You don't tell us what aircraft you are flying at Mesa. Are you flying a 76-seat jet or a Beech 1900? We need to compare apples to apples.

As a first year F/O at Mesa, the chart I am looking at puts your pay at $20.47/hr. Yes, that is less than the $35/hr at U. However, that is only because the U pilots will be paid at the "highest FO rate" in the Eagle contract. In other words, the equivalent of and 8-yr FO at Mesa. I doubt Mesas has any 8-yr FO's. Do you?

On the Captain side of the fence this 76-seat rate of $58/hr is more than $2/hr less than CMR's 1st yr. CA rate in the 50-seat RJ and the U FO rate is also more than $2/hr less than the rate for an FO entering his 2nd yr, again in the 50 seat jet.

The CA rate at U is more than $8/hr below the CMR 70-seat rate for a 1st yr. captain.

That doesn't even take into consideration the fact that there are no 1st yr captains at most airlines, including Comair. That makes the difference more than $12/hr below the Comair 70-seat rate for a 3-yr captain, and more than $6/hr below the 50-seat rate of our most junior captains. It is actually $55/hr below our senior captains (18-yr) in a 70-seat jet.

If you bother to look at the longevity of the pilots actually flying this type aircraft at Comair (and most other regionals), the disparity is glaringly higher. This action by ALPA & the USAMEC will literally destroy our contract.

The U pilots moving into these aircraft are not "new" pilots at U, they are furloughed pilots with, in most cases, quite a bit of longevity for which they will recieve no credit in the left seat, but 8 years credit in the right seat.

I know that the airline (U) is in bankruptcy. Nevertheless, I see this agreement as a "sacrifice" of U's junior pilots in and effort to protect its senior pilots. I also see it as the undermining of every existing ALPA contract at a regional airline (including Mesa).

If Mesa still holds the title of "bottom of the barrel" that your post implies, that's too bad. That doesn't change the fact that this agreement will force all regionals to consider concessionary bargaining. That includes Mesa.

Why does it include Mesa? Because there are no 1st yr Captains flying 76-seat jets at Mesa. I do not know, but I have to wonder how many pilots with 4 yrs seniority can hold a 76-seat jet [even]at Mesa? If some can, then the rates match Mesa. If none can, then these rates undercut Mesa as well.

What pi$$es me off is that there was obviously no consideration given to the impact that this would have on nearly a dozen alpa carriers. It typical fashion it was negotiated by a bunch of people who don't give a dam* about anyone but themselves, and supported by a labor union that doesn't give a dam* about its regional members that will suffer the ill effects.

Maybe instead of worrying about your U rates being so low, we should pray that you go Chapter 7 and get out of the business so that we can have a chance of preserving what little we have. Is that what you would like? We could just say "well, they don't care about us, so we don't care about them. Let's hope they fail".

I'll bet you wouldn't like that and I can't even write (here) the things you would call us commuter pukes if we made such a statement. I also have to wonder how you would react, if we told our company that we would fly your 737's for 1/2 what they pay you to fly them? Would you like that?

The U pilots and ALPA are literally forcing a lowering of the bar by this action. I know it, you know it, and every regional pilot should pull his head out of the sand and recognize it for what it is: a total and deliberate failure of the union to represent the interests of thousands of regional members for the benefit of USAirways pilots. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

 

[AAPilot]

"Won't last long anyway, U will flop over by summer barring a miricle.

What a tragedy."



It needs to happen if pay scales like these become reality. No airline has survived long term with a culture of employee give backs. I would rather go down swinging.

What about CAL?

 

[reepicheep]

CAL is a rare example of an airline on death's door that came back to their employees again and again and has actually prospered. In fact the CAL pilots have recovered quite well with a good contract - pay & benefits compare favorably with US Airways.

The big difference is Bethune established credibility and had a viable plan that was succesfully implemented. US Airways current management team seems to devote 90% of their time & resources to attacking labor with no strategic plan as such except probably survive long enough for the United merger or fragmentation scenario to play out.

 

[surplus1]

You guys need to lay off "Alpa" in general. Do you think they are trying to hold the wages up at Delta? Yes they are. Even if we do give some back, we will still be higher paid than most, and that is because of Alpa. The USAir MEC has let you down, not the whole union. USAir is floundering, and that MEC probably didn't have much choice, but normally ALPA would not agree with that.

"Normally alpa would not agree with that". Then why are they agreeing with it now? When CCAir had a very similar situation in their concessionary contract, Woerth overruled them, refused to sign their agreement, and went to court against the CCAir pilots to enforce his refusal. It resulted in the shutdown of CCAir. WHY didn't he do the same thing to this mess? Was he right in doing that? Yes, he was. Why is ALPA's action different in this case? I'll tell you why, because this time he is protecting mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. The double standard is loud and clear.

General, you say that ALPA is "trying to hold the wages up at Delta". Well you need to get your head out of alpa's sandbox too. If you don't think this will affect Delta you are WRONG.

You have been talking a lot about how much you want to your company, Delta, to buy a 100-seat jet. Well, buddy how many seats to you think there are in an EMB-190? That airplane can replace your 737's in a heartbeat. If your company buys it now, then you will have to match the rates and the contract at U, if you want to compete. That means you can fly it for $63/hr, with no pension, no work rules, no duty righs, no nothing. Or if you don't want to do that, then guess who will fly it? I'll answer that -- Comair, ASA, SKYW, CHQ, etc., etc. Then we will tell you, that "we didn't have much choice", just like you are telling us now about the USAMEC.

They had a choice all right and they made it. The seniors have sold out the juniors at U, and adding insult to injury, they have sold out everyone else in the business. And who is there to support and help them and aprrove of this? ALPA National.

As far as the USAir MDA pay rates---I think they $uck. I am dissapointed too. This will result in major pressure on all future 70 seat rates, and some contracts currently up for renewal. (ASA) That agreement really did lower the bar AGAIN.

Bye Bye--General Lee

If you've ever made an understatment, General, that's it. It will not result in "major pressure", it will ruin every regional contract out there. In the process it will end your ambitions for a 100-seater as well. So you might as well sign away your Scope and give the 100 seaters and the 737's to us peasants, unless of course you want to join us working in the cotton fields.

 

[Smoking Man]

surplus1

after 1161 of your posts you are starting to clear up the Kool-Aid, I'm starting to see things a little different.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

This is one time that I agree with Surplus, for the most part. Delta pilots will not have to fly those types of airplanes for them to be competitive. The costs of USAir art still higher than those at Delta including the pay cuts, work rule cuts, etc, of the USAir pilots. IOW Delta pilots make a ton more now than the USAir pilots and the company's costs overall are still lower. There is no reason to think that a new 70-100 seater would be any different. As for Duane signing off on a worse agreement than CCAIr, definitely the double standard. No question. Totally different situation than the Delta/CMR/ASA thing though.

--a concerned regional pilot