USAir's MDA just made us obsolete

[InclusiveScope]

Once again surplus, well said!

Here is a link to ALPA's testimony:
http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/ccairdecl.pdf

While not industry leading, the CCAir TA would have been better than this MAA agreement. I guess it is easy to sacrifice a small pilot group that doesn't pay much in dues.

 

[Ligeirinho]

Ok I am working at mesa making 1400 a month net 1600 gross make your math...
How that can be better than 35K/y?? does someone can explain me also my friends on crashpad 3 years almost 4 at MESA as F/O and dont' make even 33K/y on their w/2's...
still asking who can explain me how 35k is samleer and wrost than 33K and that is after 3 years.
so I really don't where are your minds

 

[typhoonpilot]

I finally agree with Surplus1 on something. These rates are a joke and will have severe repurcussions on the industry. The EMB-170 and EMB-190 are nothing less than narrow body replacement jets. This is a bad precedent.

Bud, I can't believe you would support an MEC that gave away your pension. You guys are pathetic. Grow a backbone and stand up for something for once.


Typhoonpilot

 

[General Lee]

You guys need to lay off "Alpa" in general. Do you think they are trying to hold the wages up at Delta? Yes they are. Even if we do give some back, we will still be higher paid than most, and that is because of Alpa. The USAir MEC has let you down, not the whole union. USAir is floundering, and that MEC probably didn't have much choice, but normally ALPA would not agree with that.

As far as the USAir MDA pay rates---I think they $uck. I am dissapointed too. This will result in major pressure on all future 70 seat rates, and some contracts currently up for renewal. (ASA) That agreement really did lower the bar AGAIN.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

Ok I am working at mesa making 1400 a month net 1600 gross make your math...

You don't tell us what aircraft you are flying at Mesa. Are you flying a 76-seat jet or a Beech 1900? We need to compare apples to apples.

As a first year F/O at Mesa, the chart I am looking at puts your pay at $20.47/hr. Yes, that is less than the $35/hr at U. However, that is only because the U pilots will be paid at the "highest FO rate" in the Eagle contract. In other words, the equivalent of and 8-yr FO at Mesa. I doubt Mesas has any 8-yr FO's. Do you?

On the Captain side of the fence this 76-seat rate of $58/hr is more than $2/hr less than CMR's 1st yr. CA rate in the 50-seat RJ and the U FO rate is also more than $2/hr less than the rate for an FO entering his 2nd yr, again in the 50 seat jet.

The CA rate at U is more than $8/hr below the CMR 70-seat rate for a 1st yr. captain.

That doesn't even take into consideration the fact that there are no 1st yr captains at most airlines, including Comair. That makes the difference more than $12/hr below the Comair 70-seat rate for a 3-yr captain, and more than $6/hr below the 50-seat rate of our most junior captains. It is actually $55/hr below our senior captains (18-yr) in a 70-seat jet.

If you bother to look at the longevity of the pilots actually flying this type aircraft at Comair (and most other regionals), the disparity is glaringly higher. This action by ALPA & the USAMEC will literally destroy our contract.

The U pilots moving into these aircraft are not "new" pilots at U, they are furloughed pilots with, in most cases, quite a bit of longevity for which they will recieve no credit in the left seat, but 8 years credit in the right seat.

I know that the airline (U) is in bankruptcy. Nevertheless, I see this agreement as a "sacrifice" of U's junior pilots in and effort to protect its senior pilots. I also see it as the undermining of every existing ALPA contract at a regional airline (including Mesa).

If Mesa still holds the title of "bottom of the barrel" that your post implies, that's too bad. That doesn't change the fact that this agreement will force all regionals to consider concessionary bargaining. That includes Mesa.

Why does it include Mesa? Because there are no 1st yr Captains flying 76-seat jets at Mesa. I do not know, but I have to wonder how many pilots with 4 yrs seniority can hold a 76-seat jet [even]at Mesa? If some can, then the rates match Mesa. If none can, then these rates undercut Mesa as well.

What pi$$es me off is that there was obviously no consideration given to the impact that this would have on nearly a dozen alpa carriers. It typical fashion it was negotiated by a bunch of people who don't give a dam* about anyone but themselves, and supported by a labor union that doesn't give a dam* about its regional members that will suffer the ill effects.

Maybe instead of worrying about your U rates being so low, we should pray that you go Chapter 7 and get out of the business so that we can have a chance of preserving what little we have. Is that what you would like? We could just say "well, they don't care about us, so we don't care about them. Let's hope they fail".

I'll bet you wouldn't like that and I can't even write (here) the things you would call us commuter pukes if we made such a statement. I also have to wonder how you would react, if we told our company that we would fly your 737's for 1/2 what they pay you to fly them? Would you like that?

The U pilots and ALPA are literally forcing a lowering of the bar by this action. I know it, you know it, and every regional pilot should pull his head out of the sand and recognize it for what it is: a total and deliberate failure of the union to represent the interests of thousands of regional members for the benefit of USAirways pilots. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

 

[AAPilot]

"Won't last long anyway, U will flop over by summer barring a miricle.

What a tragedy."



It needs to happen if pay scales like these become reality. No airline has survived long term with a culture of employee give backs. I would rather go down swinging.

What about CAL?

 

[reepicheep]

CAL is a rare example of an airline on death's door that came back to their employees again and again and has actually prospered. In fact the CAL pilots have recovered quite well with a good contract - pay & benefits compare favorably with US Airways.

The big difference is Bethune established credibility and had a viable plan that was succesfully implemented. US Airways current management team seems to devote 90% of their time & resources to attacking labor with no strategic plan as such except probably survive long enough for the United merger or fragmentation scenario to play out.

 

[surplus1]

You guys need to lay off "Alpa" in general. Do you think they are trying to hold the wages up at Delta? Yes they are. Even if we do give some back, we will still be higher paid than most, and that is because of Alpa. The USAir MEC has let you down, not the whole union. USAir is floundering, and that MEC probably didn't have much choice, but normally ALPA would not agree with that.

"Normally alpa would not agree with that". Then why are they agreeing with it now? When CCAir had a very similar situation in their concessionary contract, Woerth overruled them, refused to sign their agreement, and went to court against the CCAir pilots to enforce his refusal. It resulted in the shutdown of CCAir. WHY didn't he do the same thing to this mess? Was he right in doing that? Yes, he was. Why is ALPA's action different in this case? I'll tell you why, because this time he is protecting mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. The double standard is loud and clear.

General, you say that ALPA is "trying to hold the wages up at Delta". Well you need to get your head out of alpa's sandbox too. If you don't think this will affect Delta you are WRONG.

You have been talking a lot about how much you want to your company, Delta, to buy a 100-seat jet. Well, buddy how many seats to you think there are in an EMB-190? That airplane can replace your 737's in a heartbeat. If your company buys it now, then you will have to match the rates and the contract at U, if you want to compete. That means you can fly it for $63/hr, with no pension, no work rules, no duty righs, no nothing. Or if you don't want to do that, then guess who will fly it? I'll answer that -- Comair, ASA, SKYW, CHQ, etc., etc. Then we will tell you, that "we didn't have much choice", just like you are telling us now about the USAMEC.

They had a choice all right and they made it. The seniors have sold out the juniors at U, and adding insult to injury, they have sold out everyone else in the business. And who is there to support and help them and aprrove of this? ALPA National.

As far as the USAir MDA pay rates---I think they $uck. I am dissapointed too. This will result in major pressure on all future 70 seat rates, and some contracts currently up for renewal. (ASA) That agreement really did lower the bar AGAIN.

Bye Bye--General Lee

If you've ever made an understatment, General, that's it. It will not result in "major pressure", it will ruin every regional contract out there. In the process it will end your ambitions for a 100-seater as well. So you might as well sign away your Scope and give the 100 seaters and the 737's to us peasants, unless of course you want to join us working in the cotton fields.

 

[Smoking Man]

surplus1

after 1161 of your posts you are starting to clear up the Kool-Aid, I'm starting to see things a little different.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

This is one time that I agree with Surplus, for the most part. Delta pilots will not have to fly those types of airplanes for them to be competitive. The costs of USAir art still higher than those at Delta including the pay cuts, work rule cuts, etc, of the USAir pilots. IOW Delta pilots make a ton more now than the USAir pilots and the company's costs overall are still lower. There is no reason to think that a new 70-100 seater would be any different. As for Duane signing off on a worse agreement than CCAIr, definitely the double standard. No question. Totally different situation than the Delta/CMR/ASA thing though.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

This is one time that I agree with Surplus, for the most part.

I regret that you (and all the rest of us) had to be slapped in the face by something like this before recognizing that the light you see at the end of the alpa tunnel is a train, and its coming your way.

I also regret that you can now look forward to the mainline job you have wanted, with pay, and work rules, and benefits, all lower than the job you have now.

 

[Catbird]

President Duane with U's Alpa Chief negotiator at the latest LOA signing ceremony. The regionals will not have the luxury of the Lube supplied by National. They will be required to purchase at retail from Alpa Legal.

Fraternally- Catbird

http://kimmershow.com/fileTamer/red 29.jpg

 

[DoinTime]

"Normally alpa would not agree with that". Then why are they agreeing with it now? When CCAir had a very similar situation in their concessionary contract, Woerth overruled them, refused to sign their agreement, and went to court against the CCAir pilots to enforce his refusal. It resulted in the shutdown of CCAir. WHY didn't he do the same thing to this mess? Was he right in doing that? Yes, he was. Why is ALPA's action different in this case? I'll tell you why, because this time he is protecting mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. The double standard is loud and clear.

CCAir was not in financial ruin when they were having concessions forced down their throats. I don't believe that ALPA has as much trouble with givebacks if it will help the company recover, but they do look down on givebacks that pad the executives checkbooks.

What I really don't get is people lambasting these payrates when they are derived from the American Eagle rates. From what I understand the Eagle rates are kept at industry average so these rates shouldn't be drawing this much attention. It sucks that the captains have to start off on the first year of longevity but that's what was agreed to. You think any widebody captain is going to agree to above average wages for guys that will be working under a different company/certificate? Especially with prospects of future paycuts at his level.

I truly hope that nobody was expecting USAirways to raise the regional "bar."

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Re: An insult

Don't get me wrong. I think the pay rates are an insult. The reality of the situation is obvious. US Airways is on life support. If the MEC were to stonewall the company over pay rates, US Airways would probably loose financing for the aircraft. What would that accomplish. The furloughed pilots would then be totally without a job.
Yes, it's an insult but 58K is a whole lot better then nothing.
As far as selling out the junior guys, unfortunately, we as pilots at US Airways have little if any leverage. Times, they are a changin.
Bud

Hey Capt, do not justify what the MEC is doing by using the "better than nothing" crap. Most of us furloughed guys would much rather come back to a full size USAirways but the MEC's actions are making that impossible. Those 170's are direct replacements for the 73's, 9's, and F100's. And probably the 320's before long. Not just at USAir, but this will set the precident for ALL airlines to follow! Before long 76's and 330's will pay a max of 100k a year and cab driver wages for everybody else.

But that wont matter to you now will it? Lets see...36 years with U.....kinda close to 60 there ay? Gotta burn whoever it takes to make it to retirement do you?

I would rather see USAir completly fail then to accept the crap being pushed on the MDA pilots. Even if it does mean my senority number becoming useless. I can always find another job, but only if there are any decent jobs left.

DO NOT use us (The furloughed) to justify your self serving, save your own butt's till retirement mentality.

End of rant.

 

[MedFlyer]

I see these rates as a real threat to both the regional and any 100 seaters flown in the future by mainline.

For example, if US can successfully get MDA in the air, they will have a distinct advantage over the likes of Comair. MDA will have lower labor costs all around (pilots, FA's,etc), plus MDA will have a superior aircraft (EMB-170) when it comes to passenger comfort. Comair will have higher costs and a less passenger friendly aircraft (CRJ700).

ALPA does seem to be a bit two-faced in this argument. On one hand, they say they want to keep pay high and stand firm on keeping DL's rates where they are. Yet, with MDA they are giving the house away, thus undercutting DL and others. It just doesn't work.

 

[Heavy Set]

Way to go! It is now possible to look at MESA in a positive light... I didn't think it was possible. I shudder to think about what this will do for the regional business.

VERY BAD NEWS

 

[AAPilot]

CAL is a rare example of an airline on death's door that came back to their employees again and again and has actually prospered. In fact the CAL pilots have recovered quite well with a good contract - pay & benefits compare favorably with US Airways.

The big difference is Bethune established credibility and had a viable plan that was succesfully implemented. US Airways current management team seems to devote 90% of their time & resources to attacking labor with no strategic plan as such except probably survive long enough for the United merger or fragmentation scenario to play out.

Reep, I was just sighting an example ALL airlines should follow...I believe all their pilots are recalled or in the process..AA

 

[CaptBud330]

Reply to KereseneSnorter

Sir, your observation of my time left to retirement is very astute. As a matter of fact, at this writing , I am only 9,411 hours away from the event. I do take exception with some of your accusations. I have devoted the last 36 years to help my company succeed. Due to union leadership that failed to cooperate with management, we find ourselves in the current position. If in fact you are fortunate enough to have a fall back career, I envy you. There are some of us that are not that fortunate. Having spent the majority of my adult life at US Airways,I would hate to see the efforts of myself and others wasted. I do not want to see this company fail and I am certain there are many others that share that feeling. I am not saying the MDA situation is acceptable. It's not. But there are fellow pilots that would accept the MDA positions. Not because they want to. But, because they have to. to support their families. I can't pretend to know what a furlough is like at this time in our aviation history. I lived through 3 furloughs during my career and did almost anything to support my wife and children. If I had an opportunity to fly for anywhere near what it took to provide food, I would have done it. I will not sell out the junior pilot to save my retirement. My retirement has been decimated. But, the company I love must survive. It would be such a shame to see it gone forever.
Bud

 

[Lear70]

As a first year F/O at Mesa, the chart I am looking at puts your pay at $20.47/hr. Yes, that is less than the $35/hr at U. However, that is only because the U pilots will be paid at the "highest FO rate" in the Eagle contract. In other words, the equivalent of and 8-yr FO at Mesa. I doubt Mesas has any 8-yr FO's. Do you?

On the Captain side of the fence this 76-seat rate of $58/hr is more than $2/hr less than CMR's 1st yr. CA rate in the 50-seat RJ and the U FO rate is also more than $2/hr less than the rate for an FO entering his 2nd yr, again in the 50 seat jet.

The CA rate at U is more than $8/hr below the CMR 70-seat rate for a 1st yr. captain.

I'm sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

There's quite a few people who will disagree with you on this, so I wouldn't necessarily say "that's the way it is", more like "That's my opinion".

In fact, there WERE many first year Captains at PCL as well as other regionals and there will be again. By this year's end we will have about 1,200 pilots on property, not necessarily CMR size, but one of the mid-size regionals. Our 1st year CA pay is only $52 and it never gets CLOSE to where those guys are at U if you consistently compare year-by-year compensation.

Our 8 year F/O pay (yes we have a few) is well below what they're going to pay those guys over at U and you compared first year U pay to 2nd year CMR pay? How does THAT work? Compare apples to apples.

To make a 2nd point, we're NOT the lowest paid regional. Actually, we're smack dead in the middle of the pack. The rates U signed for are just slightly below CMR, which makes them the 2nd highest paid regional in the industry.

The next question is whether they have trip and duty rigs? Minimum day? Maximum flight/duty times? If they have a good combination of those, it actually becomes a fairly decent and livable job, and they can actually expect a 10% increase in their base pay because of those rigs, but with your experience, I know you already know that.

If we could match those pay rates U just signed (a nearly 15% pay raise for CA's, 40% for F/O's) AND get a minimum daily value around 5 hours, look-back trip and duty rigs, and strengthen our reserve rules, we'd be done negotiating this round of contract talks we start in November. And again, we're middle of the pack as far as compensation goes right now - that would put us one step below CMR and above everyone else in the industry.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but I AM saying that it's not the end of the world, nor lowering the bar dramatically. My dad is less than 3 years from mandatory at mainline and I'm NOT happy that those rates encompass much larger equipment and I DO fear that U will sign scope concessions that allow them to replace MUCH more mainline flying with those larger jets, but given the spot that U is in, I fear that is the next announcement we'll see.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1 and Medflyer,

I agree with you, this will affect 100 seater rates I am sure. But, I still feel we will fight for them and unfortunately dump them on the returning furloughs. That is what I see happening. That does $uck, and it happened during our 96' contract too---with the Delta Express seperate wages issue. We had second year guys upgrading to 737-200 Capt in MCO---it was nuts. But, Dalpa is holding the line or the bar---and even though I predict we will give up around 20%---we will still be paid more than most. It is hard to justify such a large gap in pay during rough times. And, you are right---those EMB-190's are fairly large and will affect pay rates for years......Hopefully we can hold on to as many mainline aircraft as possible, and as retirements continue and our furloughs return---the odds of newhires making $35 an hour flying a 100 seaters are growing (much to Lowecur's liking). Hey, I made $35 an hour when I started in 96', but then I made close to $100 per hour in my second year.....I wonder if we will ever see that again????

Bye Bye--General Lee