USAir's MDA just made us obsolete

[surplus1]

Bud,

I can appreciate your years of service, your love for your airline, the loss of your retirement, and the possibility that USAir may vanish off the scope.

You are also correct when you say that your union/MEC is in part responsiblie for the carriers demise, though not nearly as much so as your assorted management has been.

In spite of all of that, if the ship is sinking it must be abandoned. Better that than running the entire navy on the rocks.

In the effort to save your ship, your group has placed most of the crews of other ships in jeopardy. Since I am a member of the crew on one of those ships, which for the moment happens to be seaworthy, I don't want to find myself in water over my head because your ship is in trouble. Especially when you are in trouble of your own making.

Perhaps I would not feel that way if I thought this would save your airline, but I don't think that. To be willing to drag everyone else to the bottom by following a procedure that is highly unlikely to save your ship, is not worthy of the pride you profess.

I don't wish to see your company fail, but this action is wrong. Nothing that I say will change anything, but you do need to be told.

 

[surplus1]

There's quite a few people who will disagree with you on this, so I wouldn't necessarily say "that's the way it is", more like "That's my opinion".

Fair enough, it is my opinion. I have some more opinions about what you said as well.

In fact, there WERE many first year Captains at PCL as well as other regionals and there will be again. By this year's end we will have about 1,200 pilots on property, not necessarily CMR size, but one of the mid-size regionals. Our 1st year CA pay is only $52 and it never gets CLOSE to where those guys are at U if you consistently compare year-by-year compensation.

If you in fact have 1st year captains, and I believe you since you said so, that is an aberration. It's not normal. Your 1st yr captain pay of $52 is nothing to be proud of, but you will now be lucky if you can keep it. That's for what size airplane? Do you have different rates for 44-seats and 50 seats? Regardless, this rate at U is for a 78-86 seat airplane. If NWA has to lower its DC9-10 rates to compete with this new rate at U, what do you think they will be willing to pay your company to fly those RJs?

Do you have any captains with more than 1 yr. of service? How about we lower your rates so that you highest paid captain makes less that USAir's/MDA highest paid captain? What do you think that will do to your present 1st year rate? You don't think that can happen? Just watch.

I think your focusing on the trees and missing the entire forest.

The next question is whether they have trip and duty rigs? Minimum day? Maximum flight/duty times? If they have a good combination of those, it actually becomes a fairly decent and livable job, and they can actually expect a 10% increase in their base pay because of those rigs, but with your experience, I know you already know that.

What my experience tells me is that you are not familiar with the Eagle contract. The USA pilots have agreed to work under the EGL contract. That happens to be one of the worst regional contracts, it contains no rigs, has lousy work rules, poor benefits, and can only be amended by arbitration. I recommend that you read it.

If we could match those pay rates U just signed (a nearly 15% pay raise for CA's, 40% for F/O's) AND get a minimum daily value around 5 hours, look-back trip and duty rigs, and strengthen our reserve rules, we'd be done negotiating this round of contract talks we start in November. And again, we're middle of the pack as far as compensation goes right now - that would put us one step below CMR and above everyone else in the industry.

I really hate to say this but I think you have a very limited understanding of collective bargaining. Now that this has been signed at U, the best thing you could do in November is try to extend your current contract without change. If you really believe you're going to "raise" your rates and introduce rigs in the face of this, you are a true dreamer.

You don't have to worry about being one step below Comair. Thanks to this BS it will take a literally miracle for us to avoid concessions now. What we will have left when its over is anybody's guess. I wish I could dream like you do but the "experience" you mentioned earlier makes me a realist.

I'm not saying what they did was right, but I AM saying that it's not the end of the world, nor lowering the bar dramatically. My dad is less than 3 years from mandatory at mainline and I'm NOT happy that those rates encompass much larger equipment and I DO fear that U will sign scope concessions that allow them to replace MUCH more mainline flying with those larger jets, but given the spot that U is in, I fear that is the next announcement we'll see.

Maybe it's not the end of the word, but when you tell me that another airline has agreed to fly equipment with as many as 16 more seats than my airplane can carry for pay rates as much as $55/ hr less is not "lowering the bar dramatically" about all I can say is you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

As for what "mainline flying" will be replaced the answer is most of the narrow body flying.

The UMEC has already voted to enter into further scope relief negotiations. I don't know what leverage it is you think they have left to prevent the company from doing what it wants to do, but we shall see. Truth is that considering the pay they have agreed to at MDA, they would be better off to give all those airplanes to subcontractors and follow the J4J route. That way the "regionals" they go to might be able to negotiate higher pay for them, since they can't do it themselves. Instead, they have decided to drag everybody to the bottom of the barrel.

I don't know which "mainline" your dad is at but if it is USAir then read what I wrote to Bud330. You'll probably figure out that I have no interest in protecting his last three years at the expense of my family. Since they obviously don't care what their actions will do to us, why should we care what happens to them?

 

[crj579]

It looks like this is going to be a race to the top of the sh#t pile and don't ask the regional pilots to play nice. We still have our families to feed too. Thanks a bunch ALPA.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Capt. Bud,

I can fully appreciate the sentimental feelings toward Usair. I am second generation U. My father started there on the DC-3 many mergers ago (a few years senior to you, but not much)and I can remember as far back as the Convair 580's. (albiet, as a little tyke traveling with the family) I have no wish to see the airline that raised me gone.

The sad fact is, as I am sure you know deep down, that this airline is 99% gone. This management has no plan, or at least none that involves anything to increase revenue. They have completly alienated all labor groups, the city of Pittsburgh, the passengers, and are now starting a fight with the city of Charlotte among other things. Even if a world class group of management walked in the door today I do not see any way to salvage this mess. U is being assaulted on all sides by the LCC's as well as the legacy carriers, and all are licking their chops over the carcus.

Make no mistake, I fully expect to never be recalled to mainline. As far as my fall back career, it is the same as it has always been..Flying. I just wear a corporate suit now instead of a uniform. The pay is not as good as mainline was but it is better than the regionals......for now.

What the MEC is doing by reopening the contract...again, is trickeling down the aviation sewer pipe and will effect the entire industry from the majors to the flight instructor. And probably you as well. I do know your plight with the retirement decimation. And this probably means that you will have to find some kind of post airline flying job. If not, then great. I bet there are many 55+ guys that will have to.

If a guy flying left seat in a 100 seat jet 1000 hours a year is making $58000, how much do you suppose that Lear or Hawker job flying 400 hours a year is going to pay? Or how about when managment decides to put those 100 seaters on the 320 and 757 routes? It is only a matter of time as long as the mec's continue to allow it.

I got into flying because I love to do it, I stayed in flying as a profession because it meant a good living for my family doing what I love. But that is quickly changing.

As was said before, There are times when it is best to abandon the wounded ship to save the rest of the convoy. If we drag the rest of the fleet down with us that just makes all the ships juicy targets for the wolfpack..........And I see periscopes all over the place watching to see what kind of deal our MEC bends over for.

 

[Lear70]

If you in fact have 1st year captains, and I believe you since you said so, that is an aberration. It's not normal. Your 1st yr captain pay of $52 is nothing to be proud of, but you will now be lucky if you can keep it. That's for what size airplane? Do you have different rates for 44-seats and 50 seats? Regardless, this rate at U is for a 78-86 seat airplane. If NWA has to lower its DC9-10 rates to compete with this new rate at U, what do you think they will be willing to pay your company to fly those RJs?

We have one rate for 44 and 50 seat RJ's. We don't have a rate for anything above 70 seats because NW mainline scope doesn't allow anyone to operate anything above 70 seats and they're holding strong on that stance - we fullly expect it to be a strike issue for them as they have 700+ pilots on the street while we're taking new deliveries and they're very RIGHTFULLY pissed off about it.

Do you have any captains with more than 1 yr. of service? How about we lower your rates so that you highest paid captain makes less that USAir's/MDA highest paid captain? What do you think that will do to your present 1st year rate? You don't think that can happen? Just watch.

Yes, there were 20 or so 1-year Captains and probably will be again by the end of this year or beginning of next. Us take a paycut? Won't happen, Mesaba tried the same thing with their pilots and they went right up to their strike deadline before giving them a raise, but they got it, and that was with the threat of losing ALL their jets. Don't sell all the regionals short on staying power, most of us are pretty pissed off at this point and would rather go do something else than take ANY kind of pay cut.

What my experience tells me is that you are not familiar with the Eagle contract. The USA pilots have agreed to work under the EGL contract. That happens to be one of the worst regional contracts, it contains no rigs, has lousy work rules, poor benefits, and can only be amended by arbitration. I recommend that you read it.[/quote[

You're right, I didn't know that about EGL's contract, that makes it even worse...

I really hate to say this but I think you have a very limited understanding of collective bargaining. Now that this has been signed at U, the best thing you could do in November is try to extend your current contract without change. If you really believe you're going to "raise" your rates and introduce rigs in the face of this, you are a true dreamer.

I have to disagree with you sir, I have done quite a bit of research on collective bargaining, and there are enough regional carriers out there who are above us in all respects (pay, rigs, etc) AND our parent carrier is in good enough financial health for us to go into negotiations from a strong standpoint.

The VAST majority of pilots on property by the time we get close to a strike deadline will be junior enough to not give a sh*t if we go T.U. We'd rather shut the f*cker down and find other jobs, even if I have to go back to hauling checks in a Lear - it'd pay about the same as my left seat CRJ job and I'd be home every day. Dreaming? I think not, just ask the Mesaba guys. They didn't get a GREAT contract, but they still made advances in nearly all aspects of their contract when faced with liquidation.

Maybe it's not the end of the word, but when you tell me that another airline has agreed to fly equipment with as many as 16 more seats than my airplane can carry for pay rates as much as $55/ hr less is not "lowering the bar dramatically" about all I can say is you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about.

You have your OPINIONS sir, and I never said it was raising the bar. Now that I know there were no rigs involved, it definitely takes it down a step, but this "THE END OF THE WORLD IS HERE" ranting at the U mainline guys is childish, pointless, and more than a little alarmist. It simply points out that it will be more difficult for the regionals to continue to improve their QOL.

I don't know which "mainline" your dad is at but if it is USAir then read what I wrote to Bud330. You'll probably figure out that I have no interest in protecting his last three years at the expense of my family. Since they obviously don't care what their actions will do to us, why should we care what happens to them?

And there you have it folks, U mainline is not the ONLY group of people crying ME ME ME!!! Frankly, it's business 101 - they're trying to save their ship and you'll just have to stand that much stronger because of it. Sucks, but that's the reality of the world we live in.

 

[Catbird]

Lear 70-
"And there you have it folks, U mainline is not the ONLY group of people crying ME ME ME!!! Frankly, it's business 101 - they're trying to save their ship and you'll just have to stand that much stronger because of it. Sucks, but that's the reality of the world we live in."

The world we live in is what you make it. The U pilots have demonstrated a attitude of "screw you, I demand it all. Full pay to the last day." In Vietnam sometimes the Sargent wasn't shot by the bad guys he happened to be in the wrong place. Thats reality also in the real world. Frankly pilots are sick and tired of U pilots ethics and justifications. If it looks like crap and smells like crap, it is crap. I and many others will be the first to pee on the U tombstone. The sooner the better. With there attitude if they and there family's starve , so be it, more for everyone else.

 

[vc10]

The profession is **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed whatever it does. Deregulation was always designed to put pilot (and other airline employee) wages under pressure---read the literature at the time, it's very explicit that this was one of the goals. It's always done that to some extent, but now that it's reasonably well understood how to launch a low-cost carrier (like JetBlue) this pressure is greater than ever.

Alternative (1) (extinction): keep wages high at the remaining majors by letting weak sisters like US Airways collapse rather than take pay cuts. In which case the costs of the remaining majors remain higher than otherwise, plus there are a bunch of unused facilities and aircraft available, leaving more room for the creation of JetRed, JetYellow, JetChartreuse, JetMauve, etc (all with much lower wages) which then proceed to nibble the remaining majors to death.

Alternative (2) (evolution): take wage concessions. In which case wages also go down, but at least existing jobs aren't lost. In this alternative, the majors gradually (and painfully) achieve lower and lower cost structures, to some degree eliminating the need for more startups.

Given these two alternatives, it's unsurprising that pilots at US Airways would rather switch than fight. Why should they be martyrs for a lost cause?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Hey Catbird,

Pretty easy to sit behind your computer and condemn 47,000 people to the unemployment line.

Too bad you don't have the stones to sign your name at the end of the post.

 

[PCL_128]

Alternative (2) (evolution): take wage concessions. In which case wages also go down, but at least existing jobs aren't lost. In this alternative, the majors gradually (and painfully) achieve lower and lower cost structures, to some degree eliminating the need for more startups.

This would make perfect since if it would actually work. The problem is that wage concessions by employees have never saved an airline and never will. If the U pilots worked for FREE, they would still be in a losing battle.

The problem is not the employee wages. The problem is a failed business model. Until the management can fix the real problems with the business model, the airline cannot be saved no matter what concessions the employees take.

 

[vc10]

This would make perfect since if it would actually work. The problem is that wage concessions by employees have never saved an airline and never will. If the U pilots worked for FREE, they would still be in a losing battle.

Not true. AMR would currently be bankrupt if not for wage concessions. It's a long way from being saved, but it has a decent chance. In bankruptcy, wage concessions would have been worse.

And, if US Airways labor costs were the same proportion of revenues as those of JetBlue in the 4th quarter, they would have shown a small operating profit.

Besides, since choice 1 is go out of business (losing all jobs), even if choice 2 (give up wages) is an iffy proposition, it's still better than shutting down the carrier. The old college try is better than giving up.

 

[nimtz]

And, if US Airways labor costs were the same proportion of revenues as those of JetBlue in the 4th quarter, they would have shown a small operating profit.

I'll call BS on this claim. I think you need to back this up with quantifiable evidence before spotting out this line of typical anti-labor BS. US Air's cost problems go FAR beyond labor, but guess where the easy scape goat exists. Mr. Wolf's and Mr. Gangwahl's golden parachutes sure don't seem to get too much analysis from Wall Street. Let's see the evidence that proves your point!

 

[Dizel8]

Not sure about U, but did read an analysis that said, if CAL had the same pay as jetBlue, they would have turned a tidy profit fourth quarter.

Of course, the difference in pay between Neeleman and Siegel is about 1.3 Million. That should pay for a few employees.

Secondly, the problem is, that I think it is unfair for U mgnt. to continuosly hammer the employees, when no real plan seem to exist. That is other than taking more from the employees. The buck gotta stop someplace. If we all work for nothing, the companies we work for could make great profits, but needless to say, we too gotta eat.

Of course, the great employees at U would probably have done all they could, were it not for the exceedingly long line of b.s. and lies that has been spawned by mgnt. Look at CAL and the tremendous turnaround they have accomplished, in recent times it has been at AWA. They rallied around their leaders, something which I think is becoming increasingly hard for the U employees to do. Perhaps Siegel needs to start thinking in those terms.

 

[Catbird]

F-----edAgain

"Pretty easy to sit behind your computer and condemn 47,000 people to the unemployment line."

Not my idea, Alpa along with your ex MECC Beebe along with Bryant and his predecessor have been teaching the corruption of the profession and the tactics to place group members on the unemployment line for years. Remember carrot and stick,carrot and stick.plus 1.95% for the pleasure. Party at my house when the U band of egomaniacs hit the soup line. Here's a link to digest while postulating the loss of the 43k jobs while Beebe dines upon the Rack of Lamb at the Club House in DC, (with full retirement).


http://kimmershow.com/fileTamer/anorexia.jpg

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Beebe was a figurehead. The MEC chair has no power to effect change at ANY company. It was the individual LECs who were using roll-call votes to force the direction of the pilot group.

If you want to condemn specific LECs for foolishly undermining the best interests of the pilot groups (ALL US Airways pilot groups including yours) I could give you a list of names -- but it wouldn't do us any good.

The US Airways MEC had the negotiating capital in 1998-2000 (pre UAL merger attempt) to provide job security for all of their own pilots, upgrade the fleets at the wholly-owneds, and even (depending on what kind of mood Gangwal was in) eliminate the contract carriers and make a single seniority list at the mainline.

They blew it by wasting negotiating capital.

I'm not disagreeing with your belief that the US Airways MEC is the reason that so many people are on the street. In fact I strongly agree.

But any pilot who anonymously posts angry drivel about how he cant wait for the remaining 4000 US Airways pilots to end up on food-stamps needs to be taken out to the parking lot and have his head kicked in.

Look pal, you want to wish someone ill start with John Davis and work your way downward to the current PIT Captain Rep. Those are the guys who have no interest in working with the company and whose continuous use of stall-tactics and global-lists do nothing but hamstring the company's recovery. I'll be right behind you.

But the other 46990 current and furloughed employees did nothing to you. They're just trying to make a living and remain employed at a company that has a history of hiring 3 - 10 year "temps" to staff their intermittent months of profitability.

-FurloughedAgain

 

[Catbird]

"The US Airways MEC had the negotiating capital in 1998-2000 (pre UAL merger attempt) to provide job security for all of their own pilots, upgrade the fleets at the wholly-owneds, and even (depending on what kind of mood Gangwal was in) eliminate the contract carriers and make a single seniority list at the mainline."

You forgot to mention the fact that U pilots elected these reps. A recall is a very simple process. You might be able to sell that synopsis down at the Country Club but it doesn't fly in the real world. You can state the excuses for U's MEC corruption until your Café' Latte' has evaporated, but in the end you are what you have representing you. Like it or not. I'm sure a small minority of individuals are decent individuals, I met a few during the 18 years I was there. Very,very,very few. When the traveling public shovels this stinky pile into the Chapter 7 heap, I'll be listening for the squealing from the throngs of Rustheads proclaiming. "You have the wrong employee's, we are the chosen one's. We have the right for all jobs." Unfortunately, the passengers don't agree or care.

By the way. If you desire to see someone with there head kicked in. I'll post a few before and after Chapter 7 photos of U pilots. I don't believe they can kick themselves in the head. But if they need some help, give me your address and I'll paypal for a few 12 Gage rounds for you and your buddies to escape those high mortgages and Mercedes payments. The U pilots reap exactly what they have sown. The sooner the better.

 

[vc10]

I'll call BS on this claim. I think you need to back this up with quantifiable evidence before spotting out this line of typical anti-labor BS.

You can just as easily disprove it, if it's wrong. Find the relevant press releases (on usairways.com and jetblue.com) and look at the nums yourself. All you need is a calculator.

 

[nimtz]

You can just as easily disprove it, if it's wrong. Find the relevant press releases (on usairways.com and jetblue.com) and look at the nums yourself. All you need is a calculator.

You are the one making the claim, so you are the one who has to produce that what you boast. I'm still waiting, so go defend yourself. Othewise I say based on Us Air's gigantic quarterly lose and the general loses of several major airlines (CAL only profitable due to one time sale of assests), that you are full of sh!t. The fourth quarter was a continued challenging revenue environment for just about everybody much less a crippled major. Prove me otherwise.

 

[texanpilot]

I dont think it was Catbird, it is the greed of U's management and pilots that is sending the 47000 folks to the unemployment line.

 

[N93]

Re: Not TRue

Reepicheep, you don't have a clue. True, the MEC is due for a change but unfortunately, the change will only hurt US Airways more. Our current problems were caused by hardliners. If we had worked with the company 10 years ago, we certainly would not be where we are today.
You seem to think that confrontation is better then cooperation. If the incomming hardliners do not work with the current management, US Airways will join the ranks of PanAm, Eastern, Braniff, etc.
I've been at US Airways over 36 years and have seen the worst. I can tell you the hardliners have brought this company down. One man in particular whose initials are JD.

Unfortunately it is people like you who are without a clue. It's weak sisters that have rolled over for the last 15 years and bred a pervasive enabling relatioship of incompetant management subsidized by labor concessions that have screwed up the airline. the first major giveback in 92 was given to "butch Schofield" a bag handler who violated Peters Principle 100 times on the way to the top job. This was a guy who was the laughing stock of the ATA and singlehandedly blew the PSA, and Piedmont mergers. If hardliners had been in control, his resignation at a minimum coupled with snapbacks should have been demanded for any contractual relief. Maybe US Airways would still have a West Coast presence and the #1 position in Florida if the giveback hadn't been squandered. Then comes more givebacks in 95 and p+1% and Metrojet in 97 to a salesman and not a manager and what do you get a fouled merger and UAIR being shrunk into near irrelevancy with 2.5 billion squandered in stock buybacks and no major effor to make UAIR a more productive efficient airline. But hey, keep giving maybe in 15 years they will just be down to a fleet of 9 A330's. Oh but wait, you will still have your job. Weak sisters coupled with incompetent management trashed your pension and sold your sons career down the river but keep your head stuck in the sand.