USAir's MDA just made us obsolete

[Catbird]

Lear 70-
"And there you have it folks, U mainline is not the ONLY group of people crying ME ME ME!!! Frankly, it's business 101 - they're trying to save their ship and you'll just have to stand that much stronger because of it. Sucks, but that's the reality of the world we live in."

The world we live in is what you make it. The U pilots have demonstrated a attitude of "screw you, I demand it all. Full pay to the last day." In Vietnam sometimes the Sargent wasn't shot by the bad guys he happened to be in the wrong place. Thats reality also in the real world. Frankly pilots are sick and tired of U pilots ethics and justifications. If it looks like crap and smells like crap, it is crap. I and many others will be the first to pee on the U tombstone. The sooner the better. With there attitude if they and there family's starve , so be it, more for everyone else.

 

[vc10]

The profession is **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed whatever it does. Deregulation was always designed to put pilot (and other airline employee) wages under pressure---read the literature at the time, it's very explicit that this was one of the goals. It's always done that to some extent, but now that it's reasonably well understood how to launch a low-cost carrier (like JetBlue) this pressure is greater than ever.

Alternative (1) (extinction): keep wages high at the remaining majors by letting weak sisters like US Airways collapse rather than take pay cuts. In which case the costs of the remaining majors remain higher than otherwise, plus there are a bunch of unused facilities and aircraft available, leaving more room for the creation of JetRed, JetYellow, JetChartreuse, JetMauve, etc (all with much lower wages) which then proceed to nibble the remaining majors to death.

Alternative (2) (evolution): take wage concessions. In which case wages also go down, but at least existing jobs aren't lost. In this alternative, the majors gradually (and painfully) achieve lower and lower cost structures, to some degree eliminating the need for more startups.

Given these two alternatives, it's unsurprising that pilots at US Airways would rather switch than fight. Why should they be martyrs for a lost cause?

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Hey Catbird,

Pretty easy to sit behind your computer and condemn 47,000 people to the unemployment line.

Too bad you don't have the stones to sign your name at the end of the post.

 

[PCL_128]

Alternative (2) (evolution): take wage concessions. In which case wages also go down, but at least existing jobs aren't lost. In this alternative, the majors gradually (and painfully) achieve lower and lower cost structures, to some degree eliminating the need for more startups.

This would make perfect since if it would actually work. The problem is that wage concessions by employees have never saved an airline and never will. If the U pilots worked for FREE, they would still be in a losing battle.

The problem is not the employee wages. The problem is a failed business model. Until the management can fix the real problems with the business model, the airline cannot be saved no matter what concessions the employees take.

 

[vc10]

This would make perfect since if it would actually work. The problem is that wage concessions by employees have never saved an airline and never will. If the U pilots worked for FREE, they would still be in a losing battle.

Not true. AMR would currently be bankrupt if not for wage concessions. It's a long way from being saved, but it has a decent chance. In bankruptcy, wage concessions would have been worse.

And, if US Airways labor costs were the same proportion of revenues as those of JetBlue in the 4th quarter, they would have shown a small operating profit.

Besides, since choice 1 is go out of business (losing all jobs), even if choice 2 (give up wages) is an iffy proposition, it's still better than shutting down the carrier. The old college try is better than giving up.

 

[nimtz]

And, if US Airways labor costs were the same proportion of revenues as those of JetBlue in the 4th quarter, they would have shown a small operating profit.

I'll call BS on this claim. I think you need to back this up with quantifiable evidence before spotting out this line of typical anti-labor BS. US Air's cost problems go FAR beyond labor, but guess where the easy scape goat exists. Mr. Wolf's and Mr. Gangwahl's golden parachutes sure don't seem to get too much analysis from Wall Street. Let's see the evidence that proves your point!

 

[Dizel8]

Not sure about U, but did read an analysis that said, if CAL had the same pay as jetBlue, they would have turned a tidy profit fourth quarter.

Of course, the difference in pay between Neeleman and Siegel is about 1.3 Million. That should pay for a few employees.

Secondly, the problem is, that I think it is unfair for U mgnt. to continuosly hammer the employees, when no real plan seem to exist. That is other than taking more from the employees. The buck gotta stop someplace. If we all work for nothing, the companies we work for could make great profits, but needless to say, we too gotta eat.

Of course, the great employees at U would probably have done all they could, were it not for the exceedingly long line of b.s. and lies that has been spawned by mgnt. Look at CAL and the tremendous turnaround they have accomplished, in recent times it has been at AWA. They rallied around their leaders, something which I think is becoming increasingly hard for the U employees to do. Perhaps Siegel needs to start thinking in those terms.

 

[Catbird]

F-----edAgain

"Pretty easy to sit behind your computer and condemn 47,000 people to the unemployment line."

Not my idea, Alpa along with your ex MECC Beebe along with Bryant and his predecessor have been teaching the corruption of the profession and the tactics to place group members on the unemployment line for years. Remember carrot and stick,carrot and stick.plus 1.95% for the pleasure. Party at my house when the U band of egomaniacs hit the soup line. Here's a link to digest while postulating the loss of the 43k jobs while Beebe dines upon the Rack of Lamb at the Club House in DC, (with full retirement).


http://kimmershow.com/fileTamer/anorexia.jpg

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Beebe was a figurehead. The MEC chair has no power to effect change at ANY company. It was the individual LECs who were using roll-call votes to force the direction of the pilot group.

If you want to condemn specific LECs for foolishly undermining the best interests of the pilot groups (ALL US Airways pilot groups including yours) I could give you a list of names -- but it wouldn't do us any good.

The US Airways MEC had the negotiating capital in 1998-2000 (pre UAL merger attempt) to provide job security for all of their own pilots, upgrade the fleets at the wholly-owneds, and even (depending on what kind of mood Gangwal was in) eliminate the contract carriers and make a single seniority list at the mainline.

They blew it by wasting negotiating capital.

I'm not disagreeing with your belief that the US Airways MEC is the reason that so many people are on the street. In fact I strongly agree.

But any pilot who anonymously posts angry drivel about how he cant wait for the remaining 4000 US Airways pilots to end up on food-stamps needs to be taken out to the parking lot and have his head kicked in.

Look pal, you want to wish someone ill start with John Davis and work your way downward to the current PIT Captain Rep. Those are the guys who have no interest in working with the company and whose continuous use of stall-tactics and global-lists do nothing but hamstring the company's recovery. I'll be right behind you.

But the other 46990 current and furloughed employees did nothing to you. They're just trying to make a living and remain employed at a company that has a history of hiring 3 - 10 year "temps" to staff their intermittent months of profitability.

-FurloughedAgain

 

[Catbird]

"The US Airways MEC had the negotiating capital in 1998-2000 (pre UAL merger attempt) to provide job security for all of their own pilots, upgrade the fleets at the wholly-owneds, and even (depending on what kind of mood Gangwal was in) eliminate the contract carriers and make a single seniority list at the mainline."

You forgot to mention the fact that U pilots elected these reps. A recall is a very simple process. You might be able to sell that synopsis down at the Country Club but it doesn't fly in the real world. You can state the excuses for U's MEC corruption until your Café' Latte' has evaporated, but in the end you are what you have representing you. Like it or not. I'm sure a small minority of individuals are decent individuals, I met a few during the 18 years I was there. Very,very,very few. When the traveling public shovels this stinky pile into the Chapter 7 heap, I'll be listening for the squealing from the throngs of Rustheads proclaiming. "You have the wrong employee's, we are the chosen one's. We have the right for all jobs." Unfortunately, the passengers don't agree or care.

By the way. If you desire to see someone with there head kicked in. I'll post a few before and after Chapter 7 photos of U pilots. I don't believe they can kick themselves in the head. But if they need some help, give me your address and I'll paypal for a few 12 Gage rounds for you and your buddies to escape those high mortgages and Mercedes payments. The U pilots reap exactly what they have sown. The sooner the better.

 

[vc10]

I'll call BS on this claim. I think you need to back this up with quantifiable evidence before spotting out this line of typical anti-labor BS.

You can just as easily disprove it, if it's wrong. Find the relevant press releases (on usairways.com and jetblue.com) and look at the nums yourself. All you need is a calculator.

 

[nimtz]

You can just as easily disprove it, if it's wrong. Find the relevant press releases (on usairways.com and jetblue.com) and look at the nums yourself. All you need is a calculator.

You are the one making the claim, so you are the one who has to produce that what you boast. I'm still waiting, so go defend yourself. Othewise I say based on Us Air's gigantic quarterly lose and the general loses of several major airlines (CAL only profitable due to one time sale of assests), that you are full of sh!t. The fourth quarter was a continued challenging revenue environment for just about everybody much less a crippled major. Prove me otherwise.

 

[texanpilot]

I dont think it was Catbird, it is the greed of U's management and pilots that is sending the 47000 folks to the unemployment line.

 

[N93]

Re: Not TRue

Reepicheep, you don't have a clue. True, the MEC is due for a change but unfortunately, the change will only hurt US Airways more. Our current problems were caused by hardliners. If we had worked with the company 10 years ago, we certainly would not be where we are today.
You seem to think that confrontation is better then cooperation. If the incomming hardliners do not work with the current management, US Airways will join the ranks of PanAm, Eastern, Braniff, etc.
I've been at US Airways over 36 years and have seen the worst. I can tell you the hardliners have brought this company down. One man in particular whose initials are JD.

Unfortunately it is people like you who are without a clue. It's weak sisters that have rolled over for the last 15 years and bred a pervasive enabling relatioship of incompetant management subsidized by labor concessions that have screwed up the airline. the first major giveback in 92 was given to "butch Schofield" a bag handler who violated Peters Principle 100 times on the way to the top job. This was a guy who was the laughing stock of the ATA and singlehandedly blew the PSA, and Piedmont mergers. If hardliners had been in control, his resignation at a minimum coupled with snapbacks should have been demanded for any contractual relief. Maybe US Airways would still have a West Coast presence and the #1 position in Florida if the giveback hadn't been squandered. Then comes more givebacks in 95 and p+1% and Metrojet in 97 to a salesman and not a manager and what do you get a fouled merger and UAIR being shrunk into near irrelevancy with 2.5 billion squandered in stock buybacks and no major effor to make UAIR a more productive efficient airline. But hey, keep giving maybe in 15 years they will just be down to a fleet of 9 A330's. Oh but wait, you will still have your job. Weak sisters coupled with incompetent management trashed your pension and sold your sons career down the river but keep your head stuck in the sand.