USAir/TA10 Award

[m80drvr]

You're right. He left out the government owning a 1/3 of AWA.

I believe those loans were paid back by then

 

[m80drvr]

Funny that the guys discounting the truth Denny writes were in Indoc and on probation when the investor funded merger was announced.

Just like a pompous, junior little westie to spout off like that to a fellow aviator with 21 years at his outfit.

Funny 21 years at usair got him bottom reserve at the most junior base....Exactly the same position as the infamous Dave O

PS. f you. You have no idea what my background is. I'll "spout off" when incorrect self serving information is bein spread. Again f off!

 

[TWA Dude]

He also stated time and again that without the merger AWA would have had to file bankruptcy.

He didn't start saying that until months after the merger closed. Different audience then.

As a CEO you don't just stand up and say things like that without truth behind the words.

Learn the difference between fact and spin. There are several online dictionaries to choose from.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

AWA was accepting new aircraft financed by Airbus at almost 100%. They were replacing older aircraft but some were growth not because AWA wanted or needed to grow but because the financing was so cheap for everyone involved that it was better to give them away rather than not make them.

It doesn't matter where the financing for new planes comes from. I got financing for my house and guess what? It's my house. Just because I had to get a loan doesn't mean I'm in bad shape financially.

Who's gonna sink money into a failing business? The planes were cheap because Airbus was struggling...not us.

The hiring was primarily for attrition and retirements and a small percentage was for "growth." To say that AWA was making money to cover it's expenses and debt obligations is blatantly false. Doug Parker has stood before the pilots many, many times and said AWA could not keep operating based on income levels. He also stated time and again that without the merger AWA would have had to file bankruptcy.

Nope. The AWA retirements wouldn't have been increasing until 2012-2020. The hiring was because of growth.

As a CEO you don't just stand up and say things like that without truth behind the words.

Yeah...I'm sure CEOs never lie, mislead, or exaggerate.

Look, nobody is saying that AWA was the most successful airline. We weren't. But these arguments that say that we were losing money, failing and that we needed US Airways to survive are just plain false. I don't care if you've been there 21 years or 21 days. The truth is the truth.

If you have the finacial evidence that backs up your claims then feel free to share. Otherwise I'm calling BS.

 

[miaboeingcapt]

How about staying on topic? It does not matter what the status of either airline was back then anymore!

 

[johnnyb]

He didn't start saying that until months after the merger closed. Different audience then.Learn the difference between fact and spin. There are several online dictionaries to choose from.

I am amazed that average AWA line pilots continue to insist they know more about the merger than the CEO or the BOD .

Hope they made sure to consult with you prior to pulling the plug on United.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

You're right, we let the Federal Arbitrator, a Federal Judge and the 9th Circuit look at it for us. I think they agree with TWA Dude as well; well 2 out of 3 so far....

 

[TWA Dude]

I am amazed that average AWA line pilots continue to insist they know more about the merger than the CEO or the BOD

What did I write that was untrue?

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

TWA Dude, it's not that what you wrote is untrue, its just that it didn't match his view of what is true. You see, facts are always open to interpretation.

 

[denny]

.....

 

[BeCareful!]

hahahahaha....you guys are such morons.

I'll post later when I f'ing feel like wasting time on this cesspool. Drvr, you just spout away here on FlightMisInfo all you want. Take GREAT pride in it, young man. Cut/paste and save it for your grandchildren. They'll be so proud of how you sat there, armed only with your keyboard, and fought mightly for that A330 seat that was so obvoiusly not part of your pre-merger expectations.

 

[get2flyin]

hahahahaha....you guys are such morons.

I'll post later when I f'ing feel like wasting time on this cesspool. Drvr, you just spout away here on FlightMisInfo all you want. Take GREAT pride in it, young man. Cut/paste and save it for your grandchildren. They'll be so proud of how you sat there, armed only with your keyboard, and fought mightly for that A330 seat that was so obvoiusly not part of your pre-merger expectations.

I don't think anyone really cares if you think it's worth wasting your time or not. If you have something to post, do so. If you don't, then go look at porn or whatever else you do when you're not spreading drivel.

Drvr, the only reason to save these posts for your grand kids is so they can see how BeCareful refuses to use spell check.

Truthfully, why are we arguing this same crap over and over again? Nobody is going to change anyone's mind and the TA-10 this is West specific, so why do you East guys even care?

 

[PuffDriver]

I believe those loans were paid back by then

Nope. Paid back post merger. It doesn't really matter anyway. The point was that although USAirways was in BK, they were perfectly viable. Although AWA was "perfectly viable", they weren't stellar.

The arbitrator blew it. No doubt, else the company would be completely merged. The old saying is that fairness is when both sides are pissed off. Well, one side was so pissed, they actually garnered the votes to vote out ALPA. Not an easy thing to do.

Both pilot groups can share blame, no doubt, but the majority rests with the arbitrator in an unfair award.

 

[NEDude]

Most of the whining Westies on here are 2005 probation pilots that got hired and then got placed ahead of roughly 800 East pilots. The lottery ticket they thought they had is getting really tough to cash and they are frustrated that they are still stuck out West and now furloughed. AWA is doing roughly 25% flying of former East routes. (PHL-SEA), all the while there flying has gone away. PHX-BDL, RDU are just a few of many many routes they have given up. LAS closed. With out the EAST flying AWA would be toast. The flying and jobs AWA brought to the merger are gone.


Other airlines back in 2005 that was hiring and had many airplanes on order were Skybus,United, ATA and AWA. Airlines like Delta, CAL, NWA and USAIR were downsizing and all had pilots on furlough. So, I guess if you are hiring and have airplanes on order and have a one time profit, that must mean you really are safe.

M

CAL opened their application window in April 2005 and was inviting people to interviews in August 2005.

 

[BoilerUP]

UPS was also hiring in late 2004 and all throughout 2005...over 300 newhires in 2005 alone, IIRC.

 

[TWA Dude]

The point was that although USAirways was in BK, they were perfectly viable.

I'm curious which dictionary you use to define "viable". From m-w.com:
3 a : capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately <viable alternatives> b : capable of existence and development as an independent unit <the colony is now a viable state> c (1) : having a reasonable chance of succeeding <a viable candidate> (2) : financially sustainable <a viable enterprise>

According to most analysts and Doug Parker US Airways was not a viable company in May, 2005. Sure, maybe some white knight could've come out of nowhere and saved it but how often does that happen?

The arbitrator blew it.

Of course by "blew it" you mean didn't rule the way you would've. Such an erudite opinion you have.

Both pilot groups can share blame, no doubt,...

Just for fun I'll go ahead and ask you exactly how the West is to blame for this mess.

... but the majority rests with the arbitrator in an unfair award.

Guess what? When you allow a third part to make a decision there's a risk you may not like the result. That's why you agree IN ADVANCE to make it binding arbitration. That way even if one side isn't happy they can't demand a do-over. Otherwise there's no point in going to arbitration. Do you disagree?

 

[PuffDriver]

I'm curious which dictionary you use to define "viable".

I am not using a dictionary. I am using the FACT that USAirways was not in CH 7. IOW NOT liquidating. You cannot seem to grasp that fact. Exit financing grew on trees in 2005. Everything else is just red herring in order to try and justify an unfair award.

Of course by "blew it" you mean didn't rule the way you would've.

No, you're not listening. He "blew it" not because I think so, but because so many other arbitrations have come out lopsided, unfair, B.S. to one pilot group or another. Yet they grumble, bitch, moan, and continue with their lives. This award actually drove a group to incite a movement, and vote ALPA off of a property.

Just for fun I'll go ahead and ask you exactly how the West is to blame for this mess.

Is the group cohesive? Is the single seniority list in effect? Nope. It takes two to tangle. The west is JUST as hard headed as the east.

Guess what? When you allow a third part to make a decision there's a risk you may not like the result.

Very true. However, there is a difference between not liking the decision, and being so incensed that you resort to the nuclear option.

Otherwise there's no point in going to arbitration. Do you disagree?

I don't disagree, unless there is enough egregiousness in the award that there is evidence of bias, rules not being followed, or some other core. Courts have appeals processes. This is the manner in which one side chose to appeal the process. Some find their actions deplorable. So be it. I happen to not be one of them. Deal with it. Either way, you are where you are. Somebody better figure out something.

 

[usav8r]

Dead horse

What was this thread about again?

 

[Instigator]

What was this thread about again?

CAL going to Auckland. Oh wait...

 

[TWA Dude]

I am not using a dictionary.  I am using the [B]FACT[/B] that USAirways was not in CH 7.  IOW NOT liquidating.[/QUOTE]You should use a dictionary because your definition of "viable" is incorrect.  Even a company not in bankruptcy could be considered nonviable.[quote]Exit financing grew on trees in 2005.[/quote]...yet somehow US Airways was unable to get any.  US Airways hadn't even filed an exit plan let alone lined up the financing.  Your revisionist view of history isn't convincing.[quote]Everything else is just red herring in order to try and justify an unfair award.[/quote]I don't have justify anything.  Unfairness is purely subjective.  Oh, and don't forget that even the East's pilot neutral agreed almost entirely with Nicolau.  Since you're such a good judge of unfairness perhaps United or Continental will choose you to be theirs.[quote]No, you're not listening.  He "blew it" not because I think so, but because so many other arbitrations have come out lopsided, unfair, B.S. to one pilot group or another.[/quote]That's circuitous logic.  You say it's not because you think so but because you think so.  Try again.[quote]  This award actually drove a group to incite a movement, and vote ALPA off of a property.[/quote]Nope, a skewed sense of entitlement drove ALPA off the property.  Most Easties (and you if you're not one) fail to recognize that their careers were ruined by management and bankruptcy courts.  Nicolau didn't make that ruin, he [I]sustained[/I] it.[quote]Is the group cohesive?  Is the single seniority list in effect?  Nope.  It takes two to tangle.  The west is JUST as hard headed as the east.[/quote]My question was how the West was to blame and that's your answer?  That's like Saddam Hussein blaming Kuwait for the 1990 invasion.  The East is the aggressor and the West is the victim.  Nice try blaming the victim.[quote]
Very true.  However, there is a difference between not liking the decision, and being so incensed that you resort to the nuclear option.  [/quote]I tried looking that up in ALPA Merger Policy, the NMB, and the NLRB, and gosh-darn it I just couldn't find it.  Now I know you must be an Eastie since you're making up rules as you go along.  Mr. Seham, is that you?[quote]I don't disagree, unless there is enough egregiousness in the award that there is evidence of bias, rules not being followed, or some other core.   Courts have appeals processes.  This is the manner in which one side chose to appeal the process.[/quote]What in the sam hill are you talking about?  There's no court case against the Nicolau Award and there never has been.[quote]Somebody better figure out something.[/quote]Hey, we're working on it.  Fighting against the tyranny of the majority isn't easy, you know.

 

[JAB31]

I am sorry I even posted the original question! I should have known it would bring up this tired argument. I firmly believe that these two pilot groups will NEVER-EVER mesh and due to that fact they will never be a viable entity.

 

[TWA Dude]

I firmly believe that these two pilot groups will NEVER-EVER mesh and due to that fact they will never be a viable entity.

I actually disagree. A few hotheaded malcontents aside when the time comes both sides will act like professional pilots and do our jobs. This ain't the first contentious merger you know.

 

[PuffDriver]

I actually disagree. A few hotheaded malcontents aside when the time comes both sides will act like professional pilots and do our jobs. This ain't the first contentious merger you know.

This merger has set a number of unique records. Yes, it is the first of its kind. It has hotheads on both sides, who don't know how to listen and work out their differences.

Reference your responses to my responses. You don't listen.

Sorry to be a participant in the thread creep guys. My original intent was to clarify some misinformation.

 

[TWA Dude]

Reference your responses to my responses. You don't listen.

I just don't listen to your brand of logic? Gosh, the makes me as bad as Nicolau. Somehow I'll just have to learn to live with myself.

 

[reepicheep]

This whole thread is emblematic of the situation @ Airways. 4 pages of who-saved-who; no commentary on the fact that your management is getting away with a blatant violation of your job protection provisions while a "neutral" arbitrator looks the other way.

 

[Bringupthebird]

USAirways has no leadership, only various levels and qualities of caretaker management. When someone comes along (Bonderman, etc.) who sees the potential of USAirways, Parker will be out and an Iron Fist (Franke,etc.) will be brought in to slam both sides together with extreme prejudice! Both sides do not realize thay are in calm water, but headed for Niagara Falls. LOA 93 will be high water mark in wages compared to what is to come.

US will be the first major to have a cost structure identical to RAH/Frontier.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Guys...stop...please...STOP !!!....until I get another beer....this stuff is sooooo doggone funny....

 

[Green]

Guys...stop...please...STOP !!!....until I get another beer....this stuff is sooooo doggone funny....

;
Funny??!! That's nice that you find humor in other people's misery.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Guys...stop...please...STOP !!!....until I get another beer....this stuff is sooooo doggone funny....

Oh, you're right, it's nothing but more blue skies and tailwinds for the mighty pilots of USAirways.

What was I thinking?

 

[eaglesview]

Two hard headed groups that will get no where until they each come down from their pedastals. I have always been a fan of USAir way back to when I flew for Allegheny Commuter. Both of these pilot groups have the ability to burn that place down. For the sake of the thousands of families that would have their way of life turned upside down, I hope that does not come to pass.

I sure hope the UAL/CO MEC's are paying attention on how not to do it.