USAir Deal - WTFO?

[NCFlyer]

Don't know if this helps but here are some of the definitions:

"New Vacancy". A Small Jet (Captain or First Officer) position that is created at a Carrier as a result of a Carrier’s taking delivery of, or announcing firm delivery of, Small Jets after the effective date of this Letter of Agreement. The number of New Vacancies at a Carrier shall be determined according to the Small Jet staffing requirements established by the Carrier and shall be determined without regard to whether pilots employed by the Carrier are furloughed or remain on furlough. The term "New Vacancy" does not include a position on a Small Jet that is introduced as a replacement for a Small Jet that is operated under the authority of Section 1(B) 3.d (4) or Letter of Agreement 79.

"Backfill Vacancy". A Small Jet position (Captain or First Officer) at a Carrier that becomes open when a U Pilot vacates that position.

"Vacancy". A New Vacancy or a Backfill Vacancy.

"Affected Pilot". A pilot on the US Airways Pilot System Seniority List as of January, 2002, who:

(i) has been furloughed, and
(ii) has not been removed from the Affected Pilot List in accordance with Attachment B.

"U Pilot". A former Affected Pilot who:

(i) accepts a New Vacancy or a Backfill Vacancy with a Carrier and enters into employment with that Carrier, and
(ii) has not left the employ of a Carrier or has not been awarded a position at a Carrier as a result of a voluntary bid not covered by this Letter of Agreement.

Clear as mud now!

 

[canon]

help me please

As a prospective new hire with a possible class date of August 5, what should all of this mean to me.

Should I just jump and hope that the transition takes a while, or what.

 

[FlyingSig]

Who cares if Mainline pilots get half the seats if we expand and none if we don't. The reason we all fought this (until our wussy MEC caved in) was that the mainilne pilots would get half the jet seats period. That sucks.

That is what all the fighting is about. To have someone junior to you kick you out a seat is BS.

If that's true, then I would agree, but from what the other folks have posted on the board....

I agree that mainline pilots get half of the "new vacancy" jet seats. No dispute there. But there's still nothing that's been posted to say how they would be treated in the case of a furlough. Do they or don't they have furlough protection provided by LOA81?

I think you're assuming that if the jets are a 1-1 replacement, then the day you take delivery of a jet, they park a prop and furlough xx pilots. I really can't envision that at any airline, even one managed by Seigal (my former employer, thus the reason I hold him so high-TIC).

Typing this however, I just think I figured out how it could theoretically happen. Park all the props. Furlough the pilots. Then buy the jets and then, after the furlough, half the new seats go to the mainline folks, the other half goes to recalls ..... That's the only way I can think of that a furlough could happen out of seniority order. Think it'll go that route? Personally, I doubt it.

Again, I want to reiterate that I'm no way supporting this LOA (which again, I think is a raw deal because it circumvents the pay/bidding aspects of an ALPA contract)..... however in all the venom towards mainline pilots on this BB, I was just looking for some facts to back up the claim that these folks will cause people senior to them to loose their jobs.

 

[NCFlyer]

Maybe this will help.

Under Jet for Jobs/LOA 81 if USAirways Group allows or permits any regional carrier to operate any more regional jets under the USAirways banner then 50% of the pilots (both captain and first officers) that fly that aircraft must be a furloughed mainline pilot. All mainline pilots will be paid captain’s pay regardless of seat position. At the new MidAtlantic Air 100% of the pilots must be mainline furloughed pilots and all will be paid captain's pay. Those mainline pilots have to be given the seats regardless if the carrier has any other pilots already on furlough or regardless of the fact that current pilots on the carrier’s seniority list will need to be furloughed to make room for the mainline pilot. Under the worst case scenario if a carrier participating in the J4J/LOA 81 extortion replaces their entire fleet of turbo-props with RJ’s then that carrier would have to furlough half of their pilot group and half of their captains would be downgraded to F/O’s to allow mainline pilots to come in and fill 50% of the captain and 50% of the F/O positions on the RJ’s. LOA 81 includes protocols on how each aircraft added to the USAirways code share fleet has to be documented to be certain that each additional aircraft has the correct ratio of mainline pilots. It includes furlough protection for the mainline pilots to the extent as long as the carrier operates each aircraft added under LOA 81 half the pilots must be mainline pilots. So if the carrier parks other aircraft in their fleet other pilots with more seniority will have to be furloughed while the mainline pilots keeps his job in the RJ.

 

[Tim47SIP]

NC Flier

Question - Do the furloughed mainline guys get super seniority when they go to the RJ?

I guess one thing is starting to make sence in my mind is that with these deals (J4J), U management probably has no intent of bringing any of these furloughed guys back any time in the near or distant future. I think ALPA was told this and that is why they endorsed this abortion knowing it would affect the WO's pilots the way it does. I fully understand the need to get those guys back in the seat, but I think the methods are a devious at best.

 

[Vrefus]

Learlove,

I think you need to be educated as to what a SCAB actually is. According to the unions, a SCAB is anyone that either crosses a picket line to work struck work or works for a company that races in and flies struck work. IE when COMAIR was on strike last year, if Mesa or anyone else ran in and started flying COMAIR routes, they would theorhetically be considered SCABS. Not as you put it regarding the contract carriers.

Chill Out

 

[BoredToDeath]

To those of you that think our use of the word scab is wrong, lets look at this from a WO pilots perspective. There are three WO carriers that for years were not permitted to operate jets because the contract carriers "do it for less". In our eyes you are Advocating a lower wage to do the same job. Now they are flying mainline routes and "doing it for less". Where does it stop?

The WOs job was to feed mainline, you came in and did it for less, while our growth has been stunted. There is absolutley no need for contract carriers, of which there are aprox. 6 of you, to be here. So I think SCAB is a pretty good word to use. Not that you've crossed any pickett line but that you are Some Carrier Advocating B Scale. SCABS

Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Scab misuse and you are confused

A scab crosses picket lines, and you don't know what you're talking about , I DO know what strikes do to families (my own) and nothing is worse than seeing some one go to work while your family tries to exist on strike pay.....1)"Doing it for less" was a preexisting condition for Mesa Air group, WE GAVE UP NOTHING to fly jets a USAir, CCAir originally WOULD NOT do what the WO's are lining up to do now! SEKLLING OUT THE PROFESSION! You WO guys are now lowering the bar to get them, ain't that rich! Just when Mesa is gonna move things up in our contract negotiations, we get cut off at the knees by the Wholly Owneds who have decided to take the low road and become the ho's you always accused us of, classic selfish pilot BS. 2) The biggest growth spurt at the Wholly Owneds EVER HAD came from US Air mainline DOWNSIZING and YOU GUYS DOING IT FOR LESS! Remeber how big ROA was? DAY? and lots more? Are you by your own goofy scab definition a scab as well? Seems so if we use your logic! 3) Why don't the WO's stick it out to fight the next low bidder for flying? Good question, it appears YOU ARE THE NEXT LOWEST BIDDER!!! DOOOOHHHH!!! Look in the mirror for the selling out of the profession I have heard so often. Seems ironic that the people who "sold out and did it cheaper than mainline" are complaining now, it is a small world!T he facts, my son, look bad for you and yours.....the new industry ho's I believe you guys called it, up to Sep 10

 

[BoredToDeath]

**CCAir originally WOULD NOT do what the WO's are lining up to do now! SEKLLING OUT THE PROFESSION! **

Thats a good one! The WO are trying to keep all US Airways Group Flying within Group and thats called selling out the Proffession.

**You WO guys are now lowering the bar to get them**

I'll give you this, Our (PSA) MEC is out of control, The pilot group here has not been allowed to vote on our current contract or the J4J issues. PSAs MEC has stated that they did what they did to keep the company alive and they knew the pilots would vote no.

**Just when Mesa is gonna move things up in our contract negotiations, we get cut off at the knees by the Wholly Owneds **

Honestly nobody cares what happens at MESA, your not wanted here. I'm not being mean in anyway but just telling it like it is.

**The biggest growth spurt at the Wholly Owneds EVER HAD came from US Air mainline DOWNSIZING and YOU GUYS DOING IT FOR LESS! **

What growth are you talking about? PDT, and ALG both have people on the street. PSA is operating with just enough people to cover the work we do have. 8 yr+ captains are being junior manned on a daily basis. And there are a hell of alot more RJs operating in DAY then there everwas. There is no growth here.

**Are you by your own goofy scab definition a scab as well? Seems so if we use your logic! 3) Why don't the WO's stick it out to fight the next low bidder for flying? Good question, it appears YOU ARE THE NEXT LOWEST BIDDER!!! DOOOOHHHH!!! **

No and so what your saying is that if the WO MECs stick to their guns and not give in to mgnt. we'll still be around? NOT! ALGs ever decreasing sen. list is proof of that. Now if the Three WO pilot groups could have stayed together on this and the Mainline MEC would have backed us up, I belive there would not be any furloughed Mainline or WO pilots. In these bad times the first people to go should have been the contract carriers and if things were still bad then furlough the WO and if things were still worse then the mainline pilots. After all Sh$t roles downhill.

**Seems ironic that the people who "sold out and did it cheaper than mainline" are complaining now, **

The RJ operaters are the ones doing it cheeper than the Mainline. Remember the WO have no RJs. We've been doing the same routes for years trying to feed the mainline.

 

[Vrefus]

Bored,

I understand your sentiment completely. If you have a grudge against any of the contract carriers, well that's something you're going to have to deal with. As for labeling CCAir because it is a contract carrier a (paraphrasing now) "scab carrier because they advocate B scale wages", where did you get your info from? CCAir's wages had always been higher than PSAs ever were, plus CCAir was offered jets around two yrs ago but declined because of the trade off that was then being ramrodded down our throats. It was a carrot on a stick, "look at all these pretty jets to replace your junk Jetstreams and Dashs. If you want them though you're going to have to take a pay cut". The CCair guys stood up and said no way, we'll keep our Dashs and Jetstreams because we don't need to whore ourselves out to fly jets. It's not that important to us.

So, before you go shooting your mouth off, get the facts first.

Vrefus

 

[ChinaClipper]

Bored to stupidity...

God lord, How do you respond to this. 1) Comments about "doing it cheaper" are a reference to USAir MAINLINE downsizing in the late 80's and early 90's. The largest growth spurt that wholly owneds ever had came from WO's taking over US MAINLINE flying because WO"S could do it cheaper. Therefore, your goofy "scab" comment makes you a scab by your own definition. 2) I don't give a $hit if we are "wanted" or not, we and the others, are here. You, and the Contract carriers, exist at the behest of USAir management, sorry you feel offended about the real world intruding on your space, but you are a shrinking group that best not be burning bridges by unprofessional conduct toward contract pilots who have ZERO say about were we fly. If the shoe was on the other foot, I and many other Mesa employees would not ever stoop to name calling and the other BS that occasionally come our way from WO pilots. We just lost a HUGE chunk of America West Express flying at CMH to CQ, and I have not heard one derogatory comment directed toward a CQ pilot BECAUSE IT WOULD BE CHILDISH!. 3) Now you know how the mainline guys felt seeing all "their" flying going to the wholly owneds that brought you so much success when it happened. Times change and sticking with a WO's was probably NEVER a good long term career plan, the Management guys will sell you down the river asap and ya shoulda seen it coming. Bottom line is the WO's are selling out to the lowest bidder, the new PSA rates are supposedly LOWER than Mesa's current rate, SOOOOOO if we use you current logic, y'all are the newest little ho's on Concession St. BTW Your beloved USAir management just hired Midway to be the 4 thousanth USAir Express provider, better get those applications out, being a wholly owned just started $ucking even more....

 

[BoredToDeath]

Vrefus,

You are right 100% that of the WO PSA is the lowest paid, no argument there, Toyota has been threating to repo my car every month. The point is in one form or another US Airways group mgmt. finds it cheaper to contract out Group flying than to give to the Mainline and WO carriers. This is the path that will lead this company to be the "Contract Carrier Of Choice" and that is not what anyone here at group wants.

The other two WO (PDT & ALG) had very good contracts that are now are being forced to tear apart just so they can keep their companys alive, with no promise of operating jet equipment that should have been there long ago. I do feel for you, what 10 or so guys that are left at CC, but you are involved with MESA and thats another story.

No one here at PSA (of the people I know) want to whore themselves out to get jets. But most would rather see them come to the WO then see them go to the contract carriers. Like I said before a few things are obviously out of the pilot groups hands at this time. What they do want is all the flying kept in house. No more contract flying!

WO Express pilots want to succesfully feed the Mainline and watch Mainline grow so that it can be more than the largest regional airline. Then there will be positions for us when the time comes. Not many want to fly express the rest of our carreers.

Maybe my use of the "word" is not what most like, but it is the sentiment among many in the WO. After all there are 1070 furloughed Mainline Pilots and a some 50 or so furloughed WO on the street. Getting rid of contract flying in my opinion would help get those people back.

For too long we have been taking it up the ***! NO MORE! Mainline Pilots need to be back at work and the WO need to be the onlyones doing the express flying. And until that day I will continue to SHOOT MY MOUTH OFF!!

 

[Vrefus]

Bored,

I don't care if you shoot your mouth off, in fact you can shoot it off until your butt falls off, but just get your facts straight before you do so, otherwise it looks like an idiot.

As for Mesa, I agree with you. I am not nor will I be a Mesa supporter because I've seen how they do business. I was one of the "dirty thirty" on the last vote of a T/A at CCA and I will continue to vote against any contract that Mesa tries to run by us.

As for U and its' wholly-owneds, sure I agree and I see where U treats them like red-headed step children. It's awful, and U has been blind to see that the WOs have been the ones that have kept them from going totally under. If you look at this realistically though, before this loan approval, there is no way that U could have gone out and bought 300 RJs along with support eqiupment. They needed the contract carriers because the infrastructure was already in place. So if you want to point a finger and shoot your mouth off, direct it to Crystal City in Arlington , VA

 

[Tim47SIP]

vrefus

"As for Mesa, I agree with you. I am not nor will I be a Mesa supporter because I've seen how they do business. I was one of the "dirty thirty" on the last vote of a T/A at CCA and I will continue to vote against any contract that Mesa tries to run by us. "

Why do you think CC Air is still in existance? With it's size now, what use is it to anyone? Why doesn't Mesa just close it up and transfer the assets to wherever they need them. Seems like there is a motive for keeping CC Air around, and why DW wont sign, but I just cant figure it out. Does the Mesa pres need an operating certificate for the J4J program because the Mesa pilots wont budge? Anyone can of course respond. Thanks. Tim.

 

[Vrefus]

Your guess is as good as mine Tim, I have a hard time figureing what the motive (s) are in this one. My only guess is that Mesa mgt wants CCA to remain so that now they have some leverage against the Mesa pilots and their negotiations. IE, sign this or the flying goes to CCAir, nice role reversal, huh??

Why Woerth won't sign, I only see two factors. In the latest T/A there was no furlough protection clause whereas in the previous one there was. Alos the 90 seat jet rates were out of whack. Other than that my info is quite limited.

 

[BoredToDeath]

China Man,

Its funny to listen to the garbage that spills out of your mouth. Its exactly what I would expect to hear from someone who works for a company whos web site states that you must pay AEPS to apply to work there.

I could go down histroy road with you but instead lets deal with the pressent. And I'll just post my final thought on the subject.

Contract Carriers have no business being here. All flying under U colors should be flown by U Group. Period. And if the US Airways Group never purchaced the 3 WO, we would'nt belong here either. It is evident the damage of having separate companys doing the same flying is having on the industry. The reason that Mainline employees are on the street is because they never had the forsight to set up a flowthrow when they had the chance. Mainline should have made Express flying Mainline flying as soon as the RJ came into play and in doing so would have raised the bar for the entire industry.

By my own goofy definition, as you put it, I do not consider my self a scab. Once again the contract carriers are the ones that are flying RJs on routes that once were flown with mainline aircraft while Mainline Pilots are on the street. Now the WO are being forced to make riduculous conssesions just to keep companies like yours away from U Group flying.

To make matters worse is mgt has us all doing exactly what they want. Every pilot group hating the other. And while the furloughed Mainline pilots are pissed at the WO, I wonder if they know how many of their own are picking up open time.

Oh its looks like it will start to suck working for MESSUP as well here shortly........UH

 

[ChinaClipper]

Reality stinks

Look chief, some facts 1) Pilots at WO's are directing their anger at contract pilots, which is wrong and highly unprofessional at the VERY least. 2) Aviation is a small world, you may see some Mesa guys on hiring boards, I know of 2 at WN and we are everywhere, lighten up, whining is unbecoming as well. 3) Vent you hostility toward US Airmanagment, they screwed you not us. 4) I have yet to see facts refuting my statements, but you aren't required to acknowledge the sky is indeed blue. 5) You guys got a HUGE boost when USAir MAINLINE downsized in the recent past and you did it for less. You did it to Mainline and they still hold a grudge. You under cut them with glee and now it happened to you. The same thing is happening to us in CMH. Get over it. Sucks huh? 6) The wholly owned are UNDERCUTTING Mesa's current substandard wages to get jets. Mesa never took any pay cuts to get jets, it called ho'in out. We NEVER DID IT and you are now. You look great with those stains on your faces... 5) In a strange way you already work for Mesa, John Orenstein is the LARGEST shareholder of USAir Stock. He is also in control of UFLY LLC which controls almost ALL the remaining shares. He is soul mates with Dave Segal from WAY BACK. Are ya getting the picture here? The horse is out of the barn and you can stomp your feet and moan about how it ain't Sept. 10th anymore. In retrospect, wages will not go up becase you guys are undercutting the same people you called the ho's of the industry! That is irony and WE should be talking about what WE are gonna do to them, not what are they gonna do to us. Or what childish bs we are gonna do to each other. Managment loves it so stop promoting it. Stop selling out your lively hood and being mananagements poster child for abuse! Have some pride.....iut can't be taken, you can only give that away...

 

[InstructorPuke]

Unbelievable

You know as I have read this thread it makes me even happier that I am going to a Fractional next month rather than an airline. It would seem that whoever that you work for in the airline industry, there will always be somebody out there that considers you a scab. I dont, nor have I ever worked for any thing that flies U.S. Airways colors and at this point I'm pretty glad. You guys are like a bunch of High School girls that show up on prom night in the same dress.. You W.O. folks need to realize that you are doing the same thing to Mainline as the contract carriers are doing to you. You are flying and doing it cheaper than Mainline can do. Do you think they consider you guys scabs.. Who Knows? The fact is, contract carriers are a source of passengers and revenues.. Maybe instead of insulting the contract guys you should thank them for the tank of gas they provide your new jets... Good Luck with the debate and I wish all of you a long a safe flying career in aviation.. I hope all achieve what you want in life.

Peace yall,

IP

p.s. cant we all just get along.

 

[BoredToDeath]

China Boy,

I thought I made it pretty clear how I felt in my previous post, and like like instructor puke says we do sound like children so I'll try and put this to an end now.

**1) Pilots at WO's are directing their anger at contract pilots, which is wrong and highly unprofessional at the VERY least. **

Our anger is being directed in all directions not just your company. Mesa is just one part of the problem. When your back is against the wall this is the reaction you'll get.

**2) Aviation is a small world, you may see some Mesa guys on hiring boards, I know of 2 at WN and we are everywhere, lighten up, whining is unbecoming as well. **

What are you guys like God " we are everywhere ". Give me a break. I've re-read what I wrote and I don't see it as whining. I simply stated what I belive needs to happen to keep all flying within the US Airways Group. The Contract Carriers need to go.

**3) Vent you hostility toward US Airmanagment, they screwed you not us. **

We're doing that too.

**4) I have yet to see facts refuting my statements, but you aren't required to acknowledge the sky is indeed blue. 5) You guys got a HUGE boost when USAir MAINLINE downsized in the recent past and you did it for less. You did it to Mainline and they still hold a grudge. You under cut them with glee and now it happened to you. The same thing is happening to us in CMH. Get over it. Sucks huh? **

I'm still trying to find the huge boost in growth PSA had during the 10 year period you stated. As far as the history I have seen(could be missing something) for almost the last 7 years we have had no more than 29 planes and roughly 260 or so pilots. Right now we have 297 pilots which from what I understand is the most this company has ever seen. And most of those are people who came back after getting furloughed from various majors. Are you sure it was'nt the Contract Carriers who did the undercutting of Mainline. The grudge that Mainline holds is because they think the WO actually have jets. Most of them don't even know what planes the WO fly, let alone how the WO have lost Group Flying to Contract Jet Operators.

**6) The wholly owned are UNDERCUTTING Mesa's current substandard wages to get jets. Mesa never took any pay cuts to get jets, it called ho'in out. We NEVER DID IT and you are now. **

Lets make this real clear for eveyone. The PSA MEC has done what they called acting in the best interrest of the pilot group by voting yes to J4Js and coming up with a less than satisfactory jet contract, all WITHOUT the approval of the pilot group. Again WITHOUT the approval of the pilot group. This course of action was taken because the MEC knew the Pilots would never agree to this crap. Now the pilots are just along for the ride in hopes that there will be jobs at the end of the tunnel. One thing for sure is there is not one HO in this group. So I'll ask this to you: Would you take the paycut or quit your job in this day and age? No need to answer.

To this day LOA 81 remains unsigned by ALPA National. So until then its a mute point. PDT is in a close 2nd to doing the same thing and ALG has been putting up a good fight to do what they think is right. I personnally wish the ALG MEC could represent all of us.

**5) In a strange way you already work for Mesa, John Orenstein is the LARGEST shareholder of USAir Stock. He is also in control of UFLY LLC which controls almost ALL the remaining shares. He is soul mates with Dave Segal from WAY BACK. Are ya getting the picture here? **

And your point is????? Do I get to look forward to flying with you someday. Oh JOY.

As for the rest of your rant I'm not gonna bother. I will say that my pride is fully intact, I fly with a fantastic group of people who are sick and tired of watching US Airways Group flying being contracted out. And though our current MEC is not acting in the majority interest of the PSA pilots, there is not one person on this property who is advocating lowering the standard! Those wheels were put in motion along time ago.

Have a nice life.

Instructor Puke,

Congrats on the new job. The fracs are the place to be. But for future ref. the WO are not doing the samething to Mainline. The only diff. between the Mainline and the WO is the size of the aircraft. US Airways Group is made up of Mainline, PDT, ALG, & PSA. This group is losing its flying to Contract Carriers.


But anyway have fun with your new job. I miss corporate flying everyday. I can't even belive I've gotten so worked up about all this crap.

Take Care Fly Safe

 

[InstructorPuke]

THANKS

I appreciate the well wishes. I definately can see both sides of the story. I know that people can get very "passionate" to say the least but lets just remember, it's a big sky and there is room up there for everybody. I agree that the W.O. are under the Airways umbrella but you guys are still the children they keep chained under the stairs. It was the same way at Eagle. We were all AMR but mainline still held a grudge against us "taking away there flying". That's not meant to be a blanket statement meant for all mainline pilots at either airline. It just sometimes can get kinda heated...i.e. jumpseat wars...etc. Anyway, all the w.o. are airgroup but the biggest thing the keeps you apart is the money. Even though regional pilots deserve much higher pay, being at a w.o. I really wonder if you guys will ever get what you deserve. Oh no, I probably started another war. You guys have fun, and just remember that little kids play with airplanes everyday. It's a really cool job. Be thankful for what you have.


Peace
IP