USAir Deal - WTFO?

[~~~^~~~]

Re: Contract scabs?

lets review

Lets, this will be fun

) 1. Contract USAir pilots DO NOT DETERMINE THEIR ROUTES! Management does. The same management that has been giving it to ya for years.

Yes, management determines the routes. Your MEC unfairly used ALPA's exclusive bargaining agent status to compel management by threat of bankruptcy to give these routes to you. This would be fair, if the WO's could have used the same ALPA resources, but as usual, ALPA locked them out.

)2) There is no secret that USAir management treats their WO's like crap, you should have researched you career employer a bit closer, I have, so have many others, this stuff should not have been a suprise.

Aren't the mainline pilots now going to work for another US Air WO'd? What does that say about your decision?

Originally posted by ChinaClipper 3) Management geeks love this kind of animosity between pilots, you are doing more to help them than help yourselves. Pat yourslf on the back for being managements banner carrier.

And what has ALPA done to bring the pilots who fly US Air passengers together? Sounds like ALPA has encouraged divisions that will destroy all of you over time...

 

[hmflyer]

People who throw around the word "scab" and use it wrongly only serve to diminish it's true meaning and shows a great deal of immaturity.

 

[FlyingSig]

You left out the small point that the small jets will be operated by mainline pilots at Capt. rates. As the Dash 8's and DO328's are replaced, those pilots are the ones going out on the street.

Honestly, I may be off base here as I'm not totally familair with the LOA....however from what I've read, while mainline pilots will be paid Capt. rates (something I don't agree with btw), they will be placed on the bottom of the actual seniority lists of the wholy owneds they go to....

Therefore, if PSA or anyone else that signs onto this deal furloughs... then it'll be furloughing the mainline pilots being paid the Capt. rates.... convienient huh? Not to mention the new costs associated with training as new capts have to be upgraded to replace furloughees.... but that's right on par with Flock of Seigal's managment abilities.

Of course then there's always the flying that gets shifted to Mid Atlantic/Potomic/whatever the name of the day is. So the mainline furloughees get rehired there at the bottom of that list? I suppose they could keep on cutting until all the flying is at Mid Atlantic but a.) do you honestly think that will happen, and b.) assuming the feds grant the loans and are big time shareholders, do you think the flying will be shifted to the wholy owned division with higher labor costs?

Anyway...just random babbling on a subject I don't know much about....

 

[skeezer]

Therefore, if PSA or anyone else that signs onto this deal furloughs... then it'll be furloughing the mainline pilots being paid the Capt. rates.... convienient huh?

Unfortunatley that is not the case. You are missing the part of LOA 81 where it says that half the vacancies created by the Jets will be filled by mainline pilots. Therefore if we replace aircraft 1 for 1, half our current seniority list will be out on the street even though their seniority number will be greater than that of the mainline pilots. Sucks arse.

The mainline pilots will be on reserve FOREVER with this LOA 81 but at least they will be flying. Unlike myself if we don't expand.

Skeezer

 

[d328pilot]

additional vacancy

If i remember correctly, mainline pilots will receive half of the additional vacancies was what was stated in the LOA 81. Now it has been a while since I saw the LOA but the part we need to be worried about is the term "additional vacancy".. If it is considered a jet seat, then you and I might be screwed. If I remember correctly, it is any new seats created...for example, we have 30 dorniers. If we get 30 jets, no new seats are added, hence, no mainline guys. if we get 100 jets...(yeah right), then mainline would get half of the seats in 70 of the airplanes.. I dont know if I made any sence or not but i tried. Either way, the dorniers will not go away over night. If you want my guess on everything, we will have to do hiring to fill the seats in the dornier as people transition, not furlough. If you remember from the last time we switched a/c types, some people got 3 and 4 months paid vacation because they couldnt train fast enough. If you are on the list, most likely you will be fine, maybe even have quick upgrades.

also, lots of good rumors i herd from mtx. last week...they were actually positive.

 

[EAP]

WTFO

When I see posts throwing scab around like candy I sometimes have a hard time feeling pitty for certain WO pilots even though I know there have to be a few decent apples in the pile. What a joke. You will reap what you sow, bigshot.

There are PLENTY of pilots getting screwed right now, it's not just you. I know, it sounds wierd, saying "others", but there are others out there.

 

[FlyingSig]

You are missing the part of LOA 81 where it says that half the vacancies created by the Jets will be filled by mainline pilots. Therefore if we replace aircraft 1 for 1, half our current seniority list will be out on the street even though their seniority number will be greater than that of the mainline pilots.

I guess that just doesn't make much sence to my simple mind...

If a new airplane comes on property, the seats needed to staff this new airplane are vacancies...

If an airplane goes away, the seats needed to staff that airplane are now called surpluses.

I haven't read it, but does LOA81 provide furlough protection to those awarded new vacancies? It may but I haven't read about it... and again, all I know is what I read here and on the ALPA board...

So it seems to me a mainline pilot could be awarded a new vacancy when the airline gets a new jet, then a few months later when that same airline parks airplanes fall victim to surpluses and be furloughed.

I guess I just don't get how you could be out of a job when you are senior to those you claim would keep their jobs.

I've read in LOA81 where mainline pilots get preferential bidding for these vacancies (I'm not disputing that this is a shady deal).

I've read in LOA81 where mainline pilots get paid capt rates regardless of seniority (Also not disputing that this too is circumventing a negotiated contract of said regional)

What I have not read in LOA81 is where these mainline pilots get superseniority or furlough protection in the event said airline downsizes to the point where surpluses outnumber vacancies. Again, I very well may be wrong, and if I am could you point out the part of LOA81 that provides this benifit?

 

[skeezer]

FlyingSig,

When I first heard of LOA that is what I thought as well. If we expand, then half would go to mainilne pilots. If we didn't expand then no biggie.

If that were the case then none of the wholly owneds would have fought this LOA 81 crap. Who cares if Mainline pilots get half the seats if we expand and none if we don't. The reason we all fought this (until our wussy MEC caved in) was that the mainilne pilots would get half the jet seats period. That sucks.

That is what all the fighting is about. To have someone junior to you kick you out a seat is BS.

I can't find a copy of LOA 81 right now but that is how it is interpreted by all the party's involved.


Skeezer

 

[NCFlyer]

For those interested in LOA 81, here are a few of the questionable conditions. I didn't want to include the entire document since it is 9 pages long. Much of the 9 pages is administrative in nature. Attachment B is entirely the "Affected Pilot List" and how it is to be administered.


2. Conditions for Deployment of Additional Small Jets by Carriers

Letter of Agreement 81. This Letter of Agreement and Attachments A and B to this Letter of Agreement shall constitute Letter of Agreement 81.

All definitions used anywhere in this Letter of Agreement or in either Attachment A or B apply throughout this Letter of Agreement, unless otherwise specifically stated.

Carrier. A Domestic Air Carrier, other than the Company, that operates Small Jets under the Company’s designator code, name, logo or marketing identity.

New Vacancy. A Small Jet (Captain or First Officer) position that is created at a Carrier as a result of a Carrier’s taking delivery of, or announcing firm delivery of, Small Jets after the effective date of this Letter of Agreement. The number of New Vacancies at a Carrier shall be determined according to the Small Jet staffing requirements established by the Carrier and shall be determined without regard to whether pilots employed by the Carrier are furloughed or remain on furlough. The term "New Vacancy" does not include a position on a Small Jet that is introduced as a replacement for a Small Jet that is operated under the authority of Section 1(B) 3.d (4) or Letter of Agreement 79

INTERIM SMALL JET AGREEMENT.
Attachment A (The Protocol)
1. This Protocol applies to all Vacancies.

2. At Affiliate Carriers, at least 50% of New Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) and 100% of Backfill Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) will be made available to Affected Pilots and U pilots on a cumulative basis in accordance with this Protocol until the Affected Pilot List (“APL”) has been exhausted. A Vacancy will be eliminated, and not be included in the formula specified by the foregoing sentence, if no Affected Pilot has accepted employment to fill the Vacancy and no U Pilot has bid the Vacancy. Notwithstanding the foregoing ratios, 100% of the New Vacancies at Potomac Air shall be made available to Affected Pilots in accordance with this Protocol and Attachment B.

4.All pilots employed by a Carrier during their first year of service under this Letter of Agreement shall be paid, by the Carrier, first year Captain rates applicable to the jet equipment flown, regardless of seat occupied. In subsequent years of service, longevity pay increases, based upon Captain’s rates, shall apply.

 

[Tim47SIP]

What does this mean?

"2. At Affiliate Carriers, at least 50% of New Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) and 100% of Backfill Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) will be made available to Affected Pilots and U pilots on a cumulative basis in accordance with this Protocol until the Affected Pilot List (“APL”) has been exhausted. A Vacancy will be eliminated, and not be included in the formula specified by the foregoing sentence, if no Affected Pilot has accepted employment to fill the Vacancy and no U Pilot has bid the Vacancy. Notwithstanding the foregoing ratios, 100% of the New Vacancies at Potomac Air shall be made available to Affected Pilots in accordance with this Protocol and Attachment B. "

As you can see, I am not very bright. Can someone please tell me the difference between "Backfill Vacanies" and "New Vacancies"? What is the difference between a "U" pilot and an "Affected Pilot"?
Thanks, I'll reply to this once I figure out what it is trying to state. Can you believe that ALPA came up with this stuff?