USAir Deal - WTFO?

flydog

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Pilots get a 26% pay cut, no furlough protection, and allow more jet flying at the regionals

How is this good for the pilots and why would they vote for it?

Is this the whole story?

Sounds like the first thing mgmt will do after this deal is done is toss half the pilots on the street and give all the flying to the regionals
 

reepicheep

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That's pretty much the whole story; the guys are pretty up in arms right now but we'll see. 500-700 furloughs will go back to late 1987 hires and push junior captain to sometime in 1985. As a June 1987 hire my relative seniority will be roughly what it was on my first-year anniversary - junior 737 lineholder f/0 or even reserve f/o.
 

~~~^~~~

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You left out the small point that the small jets will be operated by mainline pilots at Capt. rates. As the Dash 8's and DO328's are replaced, those pilots are the ones going out on the street.

Of course, those pilots were locked out of the negotiations and ALPA plans to cost them their jobs, without their representation, participation, or ratification of the contract which affects their pay and working conditions.

For the US Air pilots the deal is a no brainer. They are on a sinking ship and now have the opportunity to excercise super seniority at another airline. The current regional pilots will be pushed out of the life raft by their own union while the mainline guys get first dibs on the flying that they had been performing...
 

LearLove

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You mainline guys need to pay chris bebe a little visit. What the hell is that crap. I mean I expect you guys to screw the WO but your own guys. It proves what the we've been saying all along while trying to work w/ the mainline mec. Just when you think it can't get any worse... bebe or management strike again... if it were not true it would be funny.

BTW i'm (and many other dwngrades) missing about 1000 bucks from my july 15th pay check (just got the statement today 13th) all because of his LOA 81 crap... and where has it gotten you, correct NOWHERE, it just furloughed our pilots and put me back in the right seat hence the missing $$ from my pay check.

You want to know the real sad thing here is the pay cut I took going from capt to fo on a dash (about 1500-1700 month before taxes and 401k) is more than the fo's and chit, mesa, tsa and the other contractor scabs make in a month. My dash fo pay matches my friend at mesaup as a capt on the erj. And we are still making $$$ for U group no matter how they "cook the books" that they won't show us because it will just prove how much a value alg, pdt and psa is to group. Another thing, they wont open the books because it will also show that even more $$$ if we owned and operated rj's not the contractors, but hey davie has to support his pal johnny o.


I'm done now
 

LearLove

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I pulled this off the Allegheny Pilots' web/email loop. It was not written by me but another Allegheny pilot. It basically sums up our point/feelings on the issue. Dont get me/us wrong we are all willing to give something up/back to the company but not this way.

here it is:


"I would like to thank the ALG MEC for their good work and I want to encourage them to remain true to their positions in these next few dangerous days. I have over 10 years seniority here and have alot to lose if this company folds---but I feel that I and everyone else will lose more if we cave in to the unjust demands made by the USAirways management and the USAirways pilots.

Seniority at an airline, as we all know, is the only valuable asset
we have. To agree to LOA81/JfJ would be a mistake that would very quickly make this job worthless. I can't believe that a court of law would not hand us a victory if we sued the Mainline pilots and management if they destroy our company over this issue. Granted, it may be several years before we get our financial settlement if we go to court, but I feel that we must fight this fight. We are competent people who can earn a living in other ways and we may have to do that. But if we give in to these unjust demands I think it would be the equivilent of selling our soul to the devil. To the MEC: Please don't give in to these people!

If our company won't agree to a minimum number of RJ's that means we will not get them. If they do not agree to furlough protect our pilots that means they will furlough them. If we agree to pay and benefit concessions without these assurances then we are fools.

I'd rather be unemployed than be proven a fool by Chris Beebe and the USAirways management!"


AND THATS THAT
 

Dieterly

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mesa, tsa and the other contractor scabs
Wow, hopefully you will loose your job. I used to work for Mesa (Florida Gulf) until 5 years ago and I see nothing has changed.

Back in -94 we moved into the northeast, shortly there after and it was very common having our transmissions to ATC blocked, and finding "SCABS" carved into the instrument panel, when we arrived in the morning for our trip, getting the "bird" as we taxied by certain Dash 8's (we also got the "bird" by the friendly Piedmont pilots at CLT). By who? Well, take a wild guess!!!
 

Tim47SIP

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US Air Deal?

Could someone fill me in on the subject. Is this just ALG, or is it all of the WO's. Is this actually the Mainline proposal, company LOA81 or ???? When did it come out? Thanks. Tim.:rolleyes:
 

tintube

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LearLove wrote: mesa, tsa and the other contractor scabs

Let's see....CHA voted down J4J and your way to thank them is by calling them scabs........

Many more pilots like you out there with the WO?
Mabe I should make up my mind about my vote for J4J before I have seen the proposal from U-mec........
 

surplus1

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What are the details of the "deal" that you're talking about? Where can we find them?

It is hard to comment intelligently without the details or even a summary.

Thanks
 

ChinaClipper

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Contract scabs?

LearLove, I didn't hear the WO's call themselves scabs when they got a HUGE boost in size, Capatncy's etc. when USAir downsized and YOU got the flying...because you were cheaper. It's a small world pal and if I here you or anyone else call me a scab, you $hit is done for. I have TWO generations of battle stars in my family and you are just a dim bulb or new to the business. For the slow learners out there, lets review 1) Contract USAir pilots DO NOT DETERMINE THEIR ROUTES! Management does. The same management that has been giving it to ya for years. 2) There is no secret that USAir management treats their WO's like crap, you should have researched you career employer a bit closer, I have, so have many others, this stuff should not have been a suprise. When it comes from mine, we fight THEM, not each other! 3) Management geeks love this kind of animosity between pilots, you are doing more to help them than help yourselves. Pat yourslf on the back for being managements banner carrier. 4) Unfortunately, the service that contract carriers provide keeps the whole dysfunctional family operating. This in turn, subsidizes YOUR career. BTW You MEC has not played their cards that well. 5) We had all better hang togeather, otherwise we shall all hang separately!
 

~~~^~~~

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Re: Contract scabs?

ChinaClipper said:
lets review
Lets, this will be fun :)
ChinaClipper said:
) 1. Contract USAir pilots DO NOT DETERMINE THEIR ROUTES! Management does. The same management that has been giving it to ya for years.
Yes, management determines the routes. Your MEC unfairly used ALPA's exclusive bargaining agent status to compel management by threat of bankruptcy to give these routes to you. This would be fair, if the WO's could have used the same ALPA resources, but as usual, ALPA locked them out.
ChinaClipper said:
)2) There is no secret that USAir management treats their WO's like crap, you should have researched you career employer a bit closer, I have, so have many others, this stuff should not have been a suprise.
Aren't the mainline pilots now going to work for another US Air WO'd? What does that say about your decision?
Originally posted by ChinaClipper 3) Management geeks love this kind of animosity between pilots, you are doing more to help them than help yourselves. Pat yourslf on the back for being managements banner carrier.
And what has ALPA done to bring the pilots who fly US Air passengers together? Sounds like ALPA has encouraged divisions that will destroy all of you over time...
 

hmflyer

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People who throw around the word "scab" and use it wrongly only serve to diminish it's true meaning and shows a great deal of immaturity.
 

FlyingSig

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~~~^~~~ said:
You left out the small point that the small jets will be operated by mainline pilots at Capt. rates. As the Dash 8's and DO328's are replaced, those pilots are the ones going out on the street.
Honestly, I may be off base here as I'm not totally familair with the LOA....however from what I've read, while mainline pilots will be paid Capt. rates (something I don't agree with btw), they will be placed on the bottom of the actual seniority lists of the wholy owneds they go to....

Therefore, if PSA or anyone else that signs onto this deal furloughs... then it'll be furloughing the mainline pilots being paid the Capt. rates.... convienient huh? Not to mention the new costs associated with training as new capts have to be upgraded to replace furloughees.... but that's right on par with Flock of Seigal's managment abilities.

Of course then there's always the flying that gets shifted to Mid Atlantic/Potomic/whatever the name of the day is. So the mainline furloughees get rehired there at the bottom of that list? I suppose they could keep on cutting until all the flying is at Mid Atlantic but a.) do you honestly think that will happen, and b.) assuming the feds grant the loans and are big time shareholders, do you think the flying will be shifted to the wholy owned division with higher labor costs?

Anyway...just random babbling on a subject I don't know much about....
 

skeezer

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FlyingSig said:

Therefore, if PSA or anyone else that signs onto this deal furloughs... then it'll be furloughing the mainline pilots being paid the Capt. rates.... convienient huh?
Unfortunatley that is not the case. You are missing the part of LOA 81 where it says that half the vacancies created by the Jets will be filled by mainline pilots. Therefore if we replace aircraft 1 for 1, half our current seniority list will be out on the street even though their seniority number will be greater than that of the mainline pilots. Sucks arse.

The mainline pilots will be on reserve FOREVER with this LOA 81 but at least they will be flying. Unlike myself if we don't expand. :(

Skeezer
 

d328pilot

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additional vacancy

If i remember correctly, mainline pilots will receive half of the additional vacancies was what was stated in the LOA 81. Now it has been a while since I saw the LOA but the part we need to be worried about is the term "additional vacancy".. If it is considered a jet seat, then you and I might be screwed. If I remember correctly, it is any new seats created...for example, we have 30 dorniers. If we get 30 jets, no new seats are added, hence, no mainline guys. if we get 100 jets...(yeah right), then mainline would get half of the seats in 70 of the airplanes.. I dont know if I made any sence or not but i tried. Either way, the dorniers will not go away over night. If you want my guess on everything, we will have to do hiring to fill the seats in the dornier as people transition, not furlough. If you remember from the last time we switched a/c types, some people got 3 and 4 months paid vacation because they couldnt train fast enough. If you are on the list, most likely you will be fine, maybe even have quick upgrades.

also, lots of good rumors i herd from mtx. last week...they were actually positive.
 

EAP

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WTFO

When I see posts throwing scab around like candy I sometimes have a hard time feeling pitty for certain WO pilots even though I know there have to be a few decent apples in the pile. What a joke. You will reap what you sow, bigshot.

There are PLENTY of pilots getting screwed right now, it's not just you. I know, it sounds wierd, saying "others", but there are others out there.
 
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FlyingSig

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skeezer said:


You are missing the part of LOA 81 where it says that half the vacancies created by the Jets will be filled by mainline pilots. Therefore if we replace aircraft 1 for 1, half our current seniority list will be out on the street even though their seniority number will be greater than that of the mainline pilots.
I guess that just doesn't make much sence to my simple mind...

If a new airplane comes on property, the seats needed to staff this new airplane are vacancies...

If an airplane goes away, the seats needed to staff that airplane are now called surpluses.

I haven't read it, but does LOA81 provide furlough protection to those awarded new vacancies? It may but I haven't read about it... and again, all I know is what I read here and on the ALPA board...

So it seems to me a mainline pilot could be awarded a new vacancy when the airline gets a new jet, then a few months later when that same airline parks airplanes fall victim to surpluses and be furloughed.

I guess I just don't get how you could be out of a job when you are senior to those you claim would keep their jobs.

I've read in LOA81 where mainline pilots get preferential bidding for these vacancies (I'm not disputing that this is a shady deal).

I've read in LOA81 where mainline pilots get paid capt rates regardless of seniority (Also not disputing that this too is circumventing a negotiated contract of said regional)

What I have not read in LOA81 is where these mainline pilots get superseniority or furlough protection in the event said airline downsizes to the point where surpluses outnumber vacancies. Again, I very well may be wrong, and if I am could you point out the part of LOA81 that provides this benifit?
 

skeezer

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FlyingSig,

When I first heard of LOA that is what I thought as well. If we expand, then half would go to mainilne pilots. If we didn't expand then no biggie.

If that were the case then none of the wholly owneds would have fought this LOA 81 crap. Who cares if Mainline pilots get half the seats if we expand and none if we don't. The reason we all fought this (until our wussy MEC caved in) was that the mainilne pilots would get half the jet seats period. That sucks.

That is what all the fighting is about. To have someone junior to you kick you out a seat is BS.

I can't find a copy of LOA 81 right now but that is how it is interpreted by all the party's involved.


Skeezer
 

NCFlyer

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For those interested in LOA 81, here are a few of the questionable conditions. I didn't want to include the entire document since it is 9 pages long. Much of the 9 pages is administrative in nature. Attachment B is entirely the "Affected Pilot List" and how it is to be administered.


2. Conditions for Deployment of Additional Small Jets by Carriers

Letter of Agreement 81. This Letter of Agreement and Attachments A and B to this Letter of Agreement shall constitute Letter of Agreement 81.

All definitions used anywhere in this Letter of Agreement or in either Attachment A or B apply throughout this Letter of Agreement, unless otherwise specifically stated.

Carrier. A Domestic Air Carrier, other than the Company, that operates Small Jets under the Company’s designator code, name, logo or marketing identity.

New Vacancy. A Small Jet (Captain or First Officer) position that is created at a Carrier as a result of a Carrier’s taking delivery of, or announcing firm delivery of, Small Jets after the effective date of this Letter of Agreement. The number of New Vacancies at a Carrier shall be determined according to the Small Jet staffing requirements established by the Carrier and shall be determined without regard to whether pilots employed by the Carrier are furloughed or remain on furlough. The term "New Vacancy" does not include a position on a Small Jet that is introduced as a replacement for a Small Jet that is operated under the authority of Section 1(B) 3.d (4) or Letter of Agreement 79

INTERIM SMALL JET AGREEMENT.
Attachment A (The Protocol)
1. This Protocol applies to all Vacancies.

2. At Affiliate Carriers, at least 50% of New Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) and 100% of Backfill Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) will be made available to Affected Pilots and U pilots on a cumulative basis in accordance with this Protocol until the Affected Pilot List (“APL”) has been exhausted. A Vacancy will be eliminated, and not be included in the formula specified by the foregoing sentence, if no Affected Pilot has accepted employment to fill the Vacancy and no U Pilot has bid the Vacancy. Notwithstanding the foregoing ratios, 100% of the New Vacancies at Potomac Air shall be made available to Affected Pilots in accordance with this Protocol and Attachment B.

4.All pilots employed by a Carrier during their first year of service under this Letter of Agreement shall be paid, by the Carrier, first year Captain rates applicable to the jet equipment flown, regardless of seat occupied. In subsequent years of service, longevity pay increases, based upon Captain’s rates, shall apply.
 

Tim47SIP

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What does this mean?

"2. At Affiliate Carriers, at least 50% of New Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) and 100% of Backfill Vacancies (Captain and First Officer) will be made available to Affected Pilots and U pilots on a cumulative basis in accordance with this Protocol until the Affected Pilot List (“APL”) has been exhausted. A Vacancy will be eliminated, and not be included in the formula specified by the foregoing sentence, if no Affected Pilot has accepted employment to fill the Vacancy and no U Pilot has bid the Vacancy. Notwithstanding the foregoing ratios, 100% of the New Vacancies at Potomac Air shall be made available to Affected Pilots in accordance with this Protocol and Attachment B. "

As you can see, I am not very bright. Can someone please tell me the difference between "Backfill Vacanies" and "New Vacancies"? What is the difference between a "U" pilot and an "Affected Pilot"?
Thanks, I'll reply to this once I figure out what it is trying to state. Can you believe that ALPA came up with this stuff?:rolleyes:
 
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