USAF Officer Takes FO's Place During Medical Emergency

[JAFI]

The question “Is the CFR’s a law?” may be a matter of semantics. Perhaps better left to a room full of lawyers or a discussion in a Law Review publication. Some info and links are below.



As to any enforcement action for the captain who lands his aircraft after the first officer becomes incapacitated, if this is a scholarly discussion – have fun, if you are talking real world – some of you are just too paranoid, IMHO no violation occurred nor would there be any action except for an award for doing a good job. The captain accessed the situation, obtained assistance, followed correct procedure, therefore end of any possible enforcement “story”. The captain did what he (or she) was supposed to do – conduct a safe flight and meet any emergency condition that arises.



As to the FAA wining all its cases, Maybe an independent report would be of interest:



http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/185371-1.html



For enforcement action, I’m not putting on any rose colored glasses and saying the world is a wonderful place, but if you want to tell scary stories i'll say “but Wally, your scaring the kids”…. If that’s what keeps you warm at night – continue…



JAFI



-----------------------



U.S. Code can be found under:



http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/



(to include): Title 49 Transportation



http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sup_01_49_10_VII_20_A.html



(Where you will find) : 44701 General Requirements



http://assembler.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00044701----000-.html



(more specifically):



(a) Promoting Safety.— The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall promote safe flight of civil aircraft in air commerce by prescribing—

(1) minimum standards required in the interest of safety for appliances and for the design, material, construction, quality of work, and performance of aircraft, aircraft engines, and propellers;

(2) regulations and minimum standards in the interest of safety for—

(A) inspecting, servicing, and overhauling aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers, and appliances;

(B) equipment and facilities for, and the timing and manner of, the inspecting, servicing, and overhauling; and

(C) a qualified private person, instead of an officer or employee of the Administration, to examine and report on the inspecting, servicing, and overhauling;

(3) regulations required in the interest of safety for the reserve supply of aircraft, aircraft engines, propellers, appliances, and aircraft fuel and oil, including the reserve supply of fuel and oil carried in flight;

(4) regulations in the interest of safety for the maximum hours or periods of service of airmen and other employees of air carriers; and

(5) regulations and minimum standards for other practices, methods, and procedure the Administrator finds necessary for safety in air commerce and national security.





For more info:



http://www.gpoaccess.gov/ecfr/index.html



Electronic Code of Federal Regulations (e-CFR)



Title 1: General Provisions
PART 2—GENERAL INFORMATION

Browse Next

§ 2.1 Scope and purpose.

(a) This chapter sets forth the policies, procedures, and delegations under which the Administrative Committee of the Federal Register carries out its general responsibilities under chapter 15 of title 44, United States Code.





In the Code of Federal Regulations: Title 14 Aeronautics and space



http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

 

[sf3boy]

Ty,
I admit to being very inexperienced in aviation/airlines. I have only been in the airlines for over 5 years and have 5000+ hours. Your profile states your are just as inexperienced as I. As far as security clearances and that who gives a s*#t? We have all passed the necessary FBI checks and what not. My only point is that if this would have happened at Mesaba Airlines in a little BAE-146, Mesaba would have called TSA themselves to have that captain put out. And bottom line, a captain should be able to land a plane by himself.

 

[IFlyGC]

bug,

I'm quite disappointed at how you decide you partially quote phrases in order to make the context suitable to your argument which is completely irrelavant to the initial intent of this post. Let me use smaller words to make it very clear for you.

1) Fly the plane in the manner in which you were trained but NEVER be afraid to go outside of the box if it will save lives.

2) Get the plane on the ground and worry about the paperwork later.

3) Use common sense. The chances of you getting a violation are in all reality quite small. Fill out the appropriate form to cover your backside just in case.

The difference between you and I 'bug is that I am referring SPECIFICALLY to the emergency which WAS the context of this thread prior to your twisting.

Quite frankly, I'm pleased I don't have the pleasure of flying with you because you seem way too concerned about the "big bad FAA" and about how they'll do all sorts of nasty things to you. Having had the pleasure of working with them over the years I can testify first hand they're not the license ripping a-holes you make them out to be! They make good drinking buddies too.

The intent of the NASA form has nothing to do with getting you out of trouble...it's NOT a get out of jail free card. The INTENT of the form is to help solve reoccouring problems in the aviation community. It just has a nice side effect that if the FAA does decide to violate you, you can show that you promptly filed a report and, as I stated above, if it's not criminal or intentional then they will not enforce any certificate action against you.

As for listing your other inaccuracies, while you may have all day I have better things to do but, you can start by replying to people using their quotes in context as opposed to how they suit you.

As for "accidentally flying under the influence," think again. Pilots have been poisoned, overcome by carbon monoxide, experience hypoxia, and a host of other conditions that have done exactly the same thing to their ability and performance as several good stiff drinks.

...where as I specifically stated under the influence of ALCOHOL.

Well, I've put my favourite Chubby Checker album on the radio.....twist away......

 

[avbug]

Yes, I can see how quoting you directly might be misleading, and then addressing each point of your commentary in turn might truly be twisted and devastating. If you don't want to be quoted, then shut up. Learn whence you speak first, then post. See how easy that is?

I have to agree. I'm grateful I'm not saddled with flying with you, either.

 

[Ty Webb]

So... they "have alot of nerve second guessing the Captain", but you are going to pontificate that you "have no problem whatsoever with the way this captain decided to handle this".

Isn't hypocritical self righteousness just grand.

Les Paul

Actually, Paul, what is really grand is your protracted absences from this board. What is really not grand is the fact that you are back again.

In all of your posts, I have yet to see one where you actually had something positive to say. It's pretty clear that you are just a very unhappy little man with a tiny crank, whose wife has left him, and doesn't even have a dog to kick.

Log off, grow up and get over it, you pathetic little pile of puke.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,
I admit to being very inexperienced in aviation/airlines. I have only been in the airlines for over 5 years and have 5000+ hours. Your profile states your are just as inexperienced as I.

Your profile lists no ATP, no type ratings, and therefore no command time. Your posts indicate a similar lack of experience. If you have some PIC time, maybe you should update your profile.

Regardless, I stand by my post. There is nothing wrong with the actions of the AAL Captain, and I'll bet the FAA, NTSB and the TSA all agree with him, too.

 

[Lead Sled]

As to any enforcement action for the captain who lands his aircraft after the first officer becomes incapacitated, if this is a scholarly discussion – have fun, if you are talking real world – some of you are just too paranoid, IMHO no violation occurred nor would there be any action except for an award for doing a good job. The captain accessed the situation, obtained assistance, followed correct procedure, therefore end of any possible enforcement “story”. The captain did what he (or she) was supposed to do – conduct a safe flight and meet any emergency condition that arises.

Personally, I believe that if the FAA, TSA, or the airline tried to take any disciplinary action against the captain or his "fill-in" copilot the public outcry would be long and loud. Sounds to me like the captain was just practicing a little 'ol fashioned CRM. You know - making the most of what you've got.

'Sled

 

[enigma]

First, a question. Not being prior military, I have no idea what a military pilots credentials would look like. What do they look like?

Next, considering that the probability of someone from the back actually being needed in the cockpit is somewhere less than slim to none. I wonder if all of the Walter Mitty private pilots (and us offline jumpseaters) are dissapointed that it didn't happen to us?

And, I have no problem with placing a pax in the right seat in such an event if I had some idea that he was legit. However, I'd be very concerned about verifying that legitimacy. Does anyone think that it might be a good way for Al Querda to get cockpit access? Maybe find some way to slip some nerve agent on the crew during boarding, and then make sure that the FA knew that the terrorist was a "pilot". If I can think of it, I'm sure that the bad guys have also thought of it. Crap, now I've scared myself. I think that I'll just sit in my seat and hide during boarding from now on.

enigma

 

[TonyC]

First, a question. Not being prior military, I have no idea what a military pilots credentials would look like. What do they look like?

Aside from a standard military ID, and perhaps a restricted area badge in some cases, there's no such thing as a "pilot credential." You might ask to see a coin, but that's another story.

Next, considering that the probability of someone from the back actually being needed in the cockpit is somewhere less than slim to none. I wonder if all of the Walter Mitty private pilots (and us offline jumpseaters) are dissapointed that it didn't happen to us?

And, I have no problem with placing a pax in the right seat in such an event if I had some idea that he was legit. However, I'd be very concerned about verifying that legitimacy. Does anyone think that it might be a good way for Al Querda to get cockpit access? Maybe find some way to slip some nerve agent on the crew during boarding, and then make sure that the FA knew that the terrorist was a "pilot". If I can think of it, I'm sure that the bad guys have also thought of it. Crap, now I've scared myself. I think that I'll just sit in my seat and hide during boarding from now on.

enigma

I wouldn't be too concerned - - just ask 'em for the secret password.

 

[enigma]

Aside from a standard military ID, and perhaps a restricted area badge in some cases, there's no such thing as a "pilot credential." You might ask to see a coin, but that's another story.

Let's hear it

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Not trying to be short or snappy, but if you need to hear it, you wouldn't understand. It's a military thing.

 

[TonyC]

Let's hear it

It's one of those geography things.

You had to have been there.




.

 

[Styles]

Anybody????

 

[SuperFLUF]

.................And bottom line, a captain should be able to land a plane by himself.

Exactly, he put that aircraft in much greater jeapordy by having an "unknown" in the cockpit.

He should not be faulted by the company or feds for what he did but I would not have done it that way in this post 9/11 world.

 

[Swede]

Exactly, he put that aircraft in much greater jeapordy by having an "unknown" in the cockpit.

He should not be faulted by the company or feds for what he did but I would not have done it that way in this post 9/11 world.

B.S. I'd happily have a rated Air Force O-6 next to me anytime if I felt the need. What a ridiculous scenario... Al Quaeda operative who happens to be an accent-free, mid 40's anglo-type, slips a seizure mickey to only the FO, jumps up and announces how he'll help land the plane.

He was recruited to help.

Stop trying to hang the Captain. Capt. authority is already eroded quite enough, thank you.