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USAF Officer Takes FO's Place During Medical Emergency

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If the Air Force copilot wears a rag on his head than the captain has no worries, on the other hand if the Air Force copilot is white than the captain is in deep **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** with the TSA. From my experience the TSA is only interested in harassing white people and letting all the middle east looking terrorists go right on to wherever they want to go on the airport.
 
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You dudes make me sick...no backbone. Here is a captain that makes the call to replace his copilot with another pilot and your main concern is the TSA and possible violations. I hope that I never get to fly in the back when one of you guys have to make a command desicion during an emergency....(perhaps your first thought will be of how you may not making it to a majors or lose your job due to a violation).
This reminds me of the captain that during a ground fire, he pops the hatch and runs as fast as he can while leaving the pax and the fo in the A/C... I'm pretty sure he was running to get the CFR boys.

Sad.
 
As stated before, nobody should be needed to help the captain get the plane on the ground. He made the decision to violate security directives put in place by the airlines and TSA. While I applaud the captain for making a command decision that resulted in a safe outcome, it was still a decision that did not need to be made. We are all spinless today, USMCAirwinger, because the of the airline/government/attorney's policies of do as your told. Do not disobey orders. Now me never being in the USMC, I am only guessing that when someone does not follow orders for legit reasons or not, there is still some explaining to do.
 
Since you bring up the military. I cannot speak for all the services, but in the Corps we truly believe in leadership by example, initiative, courage, and doing whatever it takes to get the mission accomplished. You want a great example, just pick up Time magazine and look at some of the Weapons the Marines are carrying...they sure look like AK's and last time I checked we didnt have too many of those in our inventory. The next question is, are they violating some kind of policy...may be. Does it matter?....Well they are the ones getting shot at by weapons of a higher caliber. Whenever you have 7.62 rounds flying over your head and all you have is 120 rounds of NATO 5.56 you want to even out the odds a bit, not only due to caliber size but also for the over abundance of the AK's and rounds. So my point is, Should we critique my fellow marine's decisions at the time of war even though they may be violating some reg somewhere. It's not like they are pillaging villages and raping the women and children and the same holds true for an airline crew during an emergency. Now I know you are going to argue that the 737-800 can be flown single pilot...blah..blah..blah.. but like I said, neither of us were in the cockpit when it happened so lets just be thankful that it turned out alright.


Peace.
 
sf3boy said:
Yes, this reaks of security problems. As someone said before, a 737 should be able to return to land safely with one guy at the controls, especially a guy typed in make and model. Dude should have stayed in his coach seat.

I find this nice since us 121 employed/trained pilots are not allowed in jumpseats of other airlines or our own airlines on an international flight, but yet this seems to be just fine. TSA should have fun with this one.
I disagree. Anyone who flags the Captain on security with this guy needs to have their head examined. If this AF Lt. Col. flew B-1's and B-2's, he has a top secret clearance meaning he's been through ten times the amount of background checks as any normal 121 pilot or for that matter any TSA bonehead that would investigate him. He was probably traveling in uniform and if the Captain checked his military ID, I'd say he absolutely did the right thing by putting him in the seat. I hope common sense will prevail but this is TSA we are talking about.
 
sf3boy said:
As stated before, nobody should be needed to help the captain get the plane on the ground. He made the decision to violate security directives put in place by the airlines and TSA.


Puh-leaze. You have a lot of friggin' crust second-guessing the actions of this Captain, especially with the vast amount of experience you indicate in your profile.

As a former EMT and current 737 pilot, I have no problem whatsoever with the way that this Captain decided to handle this extremely challenging situation. You have no idea what transpired in that cockpit, what the conditions were, yet here you sit in your chair, loudly expressing how wrong he was and how right you are. Give me a break:rolleyes: .

Single-pilot operation is possible, but was not necessary. This Captain made a command decision, and the outcome was the best that anyone could hope for- safe landing, medical assistance rendered promptly, etc.
 
That's the very LAST thing you want to do. What if you don't recieve the letter from the Fed's until the 31st day? Well guess what.....you now can't file a NASA form because the time limit has expired. (Not true for the airlines and the ASAP system)
You should learn to read. I advised that if one files the report, one should keep one's trap shut. File the report, say nothing. Get it? I did not advise failing to file a report, but did provide cautions that most pilots don't seem to understand; filing the report can be used against you if it involved a wilfull violation (intentional or knowing violation), or a criminal act.

In this case, any criminality will be decided after the fact. I'm crystal clear on 91.3, trust me. However, many pilots foolishly believe that experiencing an emergency is carte blanche authority to sidestep any regulation, and therefore feel immune from enforcement action. Not so. A pilot is only permitted to deviate to the extent necessary to meet the demands of that emergency; that the extent necessary may be determined by the FAA retroactively. In other words, merely because a pilot feels he must do something at the time, doesn't mean he's safe, nor that he made the right decision. You can always be second-guessed, and enforcement action pressed.

As a glaring example, a pilot experiences a warning light. He makes an emergency descent, landing on a crowded city street. No one is hurt, but the aircraft receives substantial damage.

Upon learning of the situation, the FAA determines that the pilots actions were not justified for the inverter light; he acted outside the scope of what was necessary to meet the demands of the "emergency." The FAA pursues enforcement action based on 91.13.

A nearly infinite number of examples are possible. The point isn't lame examples or maudlin logic, it's this: Dont' feel that participation in a safety program, reporting via ASRS, or 91.3 will necessarily insulate you.

As I stated before, the captain here acted within his discretion in his actions. Is he subject later to second guessing, scrutiny, and potential reprisal? Yes. However, I doubt very much that any FAA legal counsel will be able to press the issue that the captain acted outside his discretion when faced with an incapacitated crew member.

Something no one has addressed here, and should be obvious, is that the captain acted in the best interest of his aircraft, passengers, and company. No indication is given that the captain knew what had caused the siezure in his first officer. With no information in this regard, and only one pilot remaining on the flight deck, who is to say that the one remaining pilot may become incapacitated? That he may fly the airplane single-pilot is irrelevant. The airplane was never certified as a single pilot airplane, and is under multiple layers of regulation requiring more than one pilot.

Who is to say that whatever caused injury to the copilot might not do the same to the captain? It could be internal, or external. You don't know, I don't know, and I'm betting the captain didn't know. He brougt another pilot into the cockpit, and in my opinion, made a good, safe, legal call.

Additionally, with the distraction of just having experienced your copilot have a siezure, adding a crewmember to help run checklists and take the load off the captain is a prudent move.

Anybody aside from me, here, ever have someone in their right seat lose consciousness? I did; the person experienced a heart attack. If you don't think that can be an ongoing distraction that may possibly detract from your overall attention (to detail), then think again. It does. Bringing someone else on board, especially an experienced, disciplined pilot, is a wise action.

A zero body count afterwards proves he made the right call.
By that logic, I can put the cold muzzle of a revolver against your temple and squeeze the trigger. When it goes "click," instead of "bang," I can walk away and chuckle. Because there's no body count. Your logic is truly dizzying.

For the rest of you out there who are all parnoid because you filled a NASA form and now regretting it, DON'T PANIC. If you had an emergency or even if you just plain screwed up, file your NASA form prompty and relax. If no-one was killed, you were sober and didn't perform the mistake intentionally you will be fine.
Such bad advice from someone who bases correctness on the body count. (You've seen too much rambo). Nowhere in the ASRS program does the issue of passenger death arise. Nor does sobriety. Don't go spouting off advice or information on a topic you don't understand, because it could cost someone their career.

You dudes make me sick...no backbone.
You are addressing the entire room with that smart remark, mate?
 
avbug said:
You should learn to read.
Well obviously if I misinterpreted what you were saying it should be up to the author to construct more explainatory sentences!


avbug said:
As a glaring example, a pilot experiences a warning light. He makes an emergency descent, landing on a crowded city street. No one is hurt, but the aircraft receives substantial damage.
As I previously mentioned....if you can say with a straight face to a judge that you did the right thing then you DID THE RIGHT THING! What was the warning light? Maybe it WAS justified to land on a busy street. Stupid pilots make stupid decisions and they deserve to be reprimanded for it......but most stupid pilots will admit they screwed up when the time comes.


avbug said:
By that logic, I can put the cold muzzle of a revolver against your temple and squeeze the trigger. When it goes "click," instead of "bang," I can walk away and chuckle. Because there's no body count. Your logic is truly dizzying.
You try to make an educated post and then make yourself look foolish by trying to compare attempted murder to a sucessfully handled emergency. So a pilot handles the emergency by the book and a hundred people die.....he keeps his license and there are 100 dead people. A pilot does WHAT'S NECESSARY and everybody survives but he gets a 30 day blip on his radar from the NTSB....we'll never know if the "book" way would have had the same outcome but at least everyone is around to thank the guy/gal up front afterwards!


avbug said:
Nowhere in the ASRS program does the issue of passenger death arise. Nor does sobriety. Don't go spouting off advice or information on a topic you don't understand, because it could cost someone their career.
Last time I checked the FAR's were law.....14CFR if memory serves me right....last time I checked, there were FAR's regarding operating an aircraft in a reckless and dangerous manner as well as operating the aircraft while under the influence of alcohol. Operating under either or these cannot be excused by the ASRS program as they are done with criminal intent! You don't accidentally fly under the influence! You don't accidentally operate dangerously! The ASRS's program is designed for ACCIDENTAL mistakes like altitude deviations and landing on the wrong runway!

As for spouting off bad advice.....if I had a nickel for every piece of incorrect nonsense you've said on here I could change my last name to Gates and have people call me Bill.
 
IFlyGC said:
...if I had a nickel for every piece of incorrect nonsense you've said on here I could change my last name to Gates and have people call me Bill.
And like the real Bill Gates, you'd still be wrong.


:)
 
As I previously mentioned....if you can say with a straight face to a judge that you did the right thing then you DID THE RIGHT THING! What was the warning light? Maybe it WAS justified to land on a busy street. Stupid pilots make stupid decisions and they deserve to be reprimanded for it......but most stupid pilots will admit they screwed up when the time comes.
You're better off quitting while you're ahead. You've no clue.

When dealing with the FAA, you're guilty until proven innocent. You are condemned with enforcement action, and then you can appeal...but only after you've already received the penalty. Surely you know this?

If you can say with a straight face to a "judge" that you did the right thing, then...it means nothing. You don't issue yourself a violation, you don't take enforcement action against yourself. What you have to say on the matter means precious little. Surely you know this, too? No? Surely, then, you know enough to keep your mouth shut and call an attorney before you do get yourself in trouble. Weather you feel warm and fuzzy about what you did means eactly jack squat.

Stupid pilots that admit their screw up, especially to the FAA, are begging for enforcement action, and have clearly established their stupidity. Very often, the FAA has no case, except what the stupid pilot makes for the FAA. A letter of investigation is sent to the pilot, telling the pilot he has ten days to respond. The pilot, thinking anything he says will make a hill of beans difference, is stupid enough to respond. The FAA isn't interested in the pilot's explaination. The FAA isn't interersted in the pilot explaining himself so that he can get off. The FAA will use anything you say against you. There is no miranda, and no need of miranda; you're dealing with administrative law. This is regulation, coming from the Code of Federal Regulation; it is regulation and now "law."

You don't have the rights you might think you have, nor do you need to be apprised of them.

A pilot does WHAT'S NECESSARY and everybody survives but he gets a 30 day blip on his radar from the NTSB....we'll never know if the "book" way would have had the same outcome but at least everyone is around to thank the guy/gal up front afterwards!
You may be familiar with the common advice that it's better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool, than open it, and remove all doubt. Judging from your reply, I'd say not. But let's address your concerns anyway.

But first, just what on earth is a 30 day blip on radar?

Does the NTSB violate pilots? Does the NTSB have the regulatory authority to do so? Where does the violation come from, and who takes enforcement action? You need to answer this question before you make any more replies; educate yourself a little bit, because it may save your career one day.

Several years ago an instance occured in which a first officer made an error, which the captain then handled as an emergency. The captain handled the evoloution properly. The first officer had his certificates revoked for being the one who caused the emergency, whereas nothing happened to the captain, administratively. Pilots who cause, or respond to a situation inappropriately, even when they feel they're doing the right thing, are routinely violated. You do NOT have carte blance authority to deal with a situation in any way you see fit; only to deal with it appropriately to the extent necessary to handle the situation, and then no more.

If you caused the situation, heaven help you.

You apparently feel that the "thanks" of those on the ground will make up for a ruined career. But at least you get a thank you. What a stupid notion.

Plan in advance. Know your rights, know what is not your right, and for petes sake, know when to shut up. The FAA successfully violates more pilots based on their own testimony than any other source. Think about that. The pilot who admits on the radio to being off-altitude, the pilot who admits he was in an airplane at a certain time when a violation should have occured, the pilot who puts "altitude violation" in the subject header line at the top of his ASRS report, making it useable against him in enforcement action.

You do NOT know what you're talking about. Your advice may be damaging to others. Take the time to get to know this topic before you spout off.

So much to post, and too little space to post it. Continued in the next post...
 
Last time I checked the FAR's were law.....
How long has it been since you checked? 14 CFR, or Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations, is not "law," it's regulation. Federal laws are found in the USC, or United States Code, and are passed by congress (or state laws, which are passed in state legislature). Try again.

last time I checked, there were FAR's regarding operating an aircraft in a reckless and dangerous manner as well as operating the aircraft while under the influence of alcohol.
FAR is officially the title of the Federal Acquisition Regulation, but that's a different story for a different time.

You are correct; 91.13 applies specifically to careless and reckless behavior, and if you'll read my post again, you'll note that I already addressed it. But let's visit it again. Operation of an aircraft on the ground or in flight in a careless or reckless manner is a catch-all that's applied to most enforcement proceedings. Not all, but a great many. If you can't be had under other regulation, 91.13 can be used to hang you. Don't have a current chart on board? 91.13 could be used. Didn't call for a breifing before you left? You're required to...among other regulations, 91.13. Took an aspirin this morning? You guessed it...91.13 can and has been used. A very versatile regulation for pinning your butt to the carpet, regulatorily.

Operating under either or these (edit--operating an aircraft in a reckless and dangerous manner as well as operating the aircraft while under the influence of alcohol) cannot be excused by the ASRS program as they are done with criminal intent! You don't accidentally fly under the influence!
The ASRS program is about safety, and reporting safety related items for the benifit of others. You may be very surprised to find that indeed a number of alcohol related topics appear in the ASRS database. For example, a first officer notes that upon boarding, he was given a small candy by the flight attendant, which he ate. He subsequently learned that the candy contained some alcohol. The flight returned to the gate and a new crewmember was called. You'll find many such cases, showing prudent thought, rational action, and these are very appropriate in the data base. A pilot who discovers that his crewmate is impaired, during the course of the flight, submits a report. An appropriate useage, especially if later the FAA comes calling and attempts to include the sober pilot by suggesting that he allowed his crewmate to fly impaired. You'll find many alcohol related entries in the ASRS database. Try reading it some time.

As for "accidentally flying under the influence," think again. Pilots have been poisoned, overcome by carbon monoxide, experience hypoxia, and a host of other conditions that have done exactly the same thing to their ability and performance as several good stiff drinks. Piltos ahve inadvertantly consumed alcohol...possibly impaired, possibly not...but certainly possible to get busted on a spot inspection. You'll find many, many reports of untintentional impairment or operation under the influence of a number of impairing agents in the database. Again, try reading it some time.

You don't accidentally operate dangerously!
Wrong. Many pilots who are violated haven't gone out to do so intentionally. Their actions may later be deemed inappropriate. They may have made an error or mistake. But many violations are certainly not deliberate...people make dangerous acts often times without intending to do so. You submit that people do not do this, than any dangerous or unsafe act must be intentional. Such arrogant thinking is dead wrong. It's also not consistent with common enforcement action against pilots involved in such actions.

The ASRS's program is designed for ACCIDENTAL mistakes like altitude deviations and landing on the wrong runway!
Very, very wrong. Again. (Keep it up, you're getting good at it...or quit while you're ahead. that would really be best for you).

The ASRS is designed to record and collect reports that can contribute to safety. It was never intended to be a legal nirvana. Ideally, the ASRS will record every safety related event that occurs; all of them. Those establishing the ASRS quickly realized, however, that pilots and others would be very reluctant to provide any information which might incriminate them or make them liable. The provision was then established that the ASRS reports would be kept anonymous, so long as they didn't describe criminal acts or intentional violations, and that these anonymous reports would not be permitted to be used against the pilot. That is, the report alone, if a covered report, couldn't be the first source of discovery for the FAA.

This is an important point to understand. The FAA can still use the report, or parts of it, against you. The FAA cannot learn of a covered incident in a report, and then pursue the actions on the merit of that one discovery. This is why I indicated previously that you should not disclose the fact that you have filed your ASRS report until necessary. It won't do you any good until appealing enforcement action anyway, and your assertion that you've filed the report is not protected in the same way the report itself is; if the FAA learns anything from your assertion, or the title of the report itself (on the strip that's returned to you), it may be, and almost certainly will be used against you.

Remember, you don't have any right to remain silent, nor to an attorney, nor any of the other "miranda" rights. You're already guilty; don't give the FAA anything to use against you. You may be invited for an informal conference. Just chit-chat, you think. Your purpose there is to testify against yourself, and that's how it's going to be used. Anything you do or say is the same way. Keep your mouth closed outside your attorney's office, and don't believe any of your own hot air about feeling good, doing the right thing, or public thanks.

The ASRS program was never designed for your protection. It was designed as a gathering program for safety related information. The FAA has graciously agreed that while it will proceed with enforcement action against you, you won't serve the penalty if the report was filed in a timely manner and is a covered report.

In all the years of the program, there has never been a breach of confidentiality, and that's important to the integrity of the program. But there have been a lot of pilots violated who were foolish enought make admissions where they shouldn't, or who submitted reports that they thought would cover them, and didn't. Further, while the report itself can't be used as the evidence against you if it's a covered report, it can certainly alert the FAA as to where to start looking. If you file the report, keep your mouth shut and your pen lid on...and don't reveal it until discussing appeals to enforcement action.

As for spouting off bad advice.....if I had a nickel for every piece of incorrect nonsense you've said on here I could change my last name to Gates and have people call me Bill.
Awright, Bill. Pick your gauntlet. List the incorrect nonsense, if you will. I've got all day.
 
Freight Dog said:
I read an article not too long ago about the actual likelihood of your average private pilot successfully landing an airliner and walking away from it is actually pretty slim.

But really... what a story to tell at the O'Club..
Maybe not a private pilot but I'll put my money on this guy (Matt Ford) who is not even a pilot but dose lighting design for TV.
 
Sounds to me like a lot of non-military people are afraid to make command decisions because of what disciplinary measures may be taken against them. Those of us who were in the military should know how to make a decision and take responsibility for that decision. That's what this Captain did, and we shouldn't beat the horse to death about who could, or should, do what to him. Face it, aren't we all just chomping at the bit to get the chance to replace an FO in a situation like this? Would would say no if they were asked to help out? Would you be thinking of filling out NASA forms, etc.? No--step up to the plate and do what you need to do. Same goes for the Captain--step up and make it happen, then come here and see how many people criticize your decision because it's probably the only place where it will show up!
 
Ty Webb said:
Puh-leaze. You have a lot of friggin' crust second-guessing the actions of this Captain, especially with the vast amount of experience you indicate in your profile.

As a former EMT and current 737 pilot, I have no problem whatsoever with the way that this Captain decided to handle this extremely challenging situation. You have no idea what transpired in that cockpit, what the conditions were, yet here you sit in your chair, loudly expressing how wrong he was and how right you are. Give me a break:rolleyes: .

Single-pilot operation is possible, but was not necessary. This Captain made a command decision, and the outcome was the best that anyone could hope for- safe landing, medical assistance rendered promptly, etc.
So... they "have alot of nerve second guessing the Captain", but you are going to pontificate that you "have no problem whatsoever with the way this captain decided to handle this".

Isn't hypocritical self righteousness just grand.

Les Paul
 

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