pilotyip
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It is more about the needs for the service, you get your wings #1 in your class, no fighter slots that month, hello drones
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USAF Academy or ROTC
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Ok, yes. I am looking at it from an instructor view point. Allot of guys want to fly airplanes, some take to it like a fish to water. Some need to work very hard. Some will never make it.
Navy and Marine Corps, drone free.
JimNtexas
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It's factually incorrect to assert that a ROTC or OTS graduate has an equal chance of getting a UPT slot than an AFA graduate. While not every newly commissioned officer who wants a pilot training slot gets one, the odds greatly favor the AFA graduates.
Once you get to UPT then getting a fighter assignment requires skill, dedication, and a fair amount of luck.
True for now, but don't look behind you.... see the word "Navy" plastered on the side of this beauty?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zC8diFd5O8
And as these things progress they won't need any kind of pilot; they'll need programmers.
That is a concept that must be lived to be understood.
Comet 2
I have skipped most of the replys and glanced at a few - no doubt all have merits. But I think the question you have asked is most interesting.
As you can see I never flew in the military - but wish i had. It just never happened for me - not through lack of trying I might add. BUT I tip my cap to those who have but I don't bow to any man who has - as I have had a fantastic aviation career.
I served my country in uniform in a minor reserve unit - proud, obscure with no deployment (never called, would have always answered) - but nonetheless - I wore the cap.
So listen here while I give you my humble view, not expert nor dim - just a view...
If you have an opportunity to attend one of the nations academies - and prove yourself a man, a leader, a carrier of the shield - never turn it down. It's a supreme privilege, one that will carry you through every obstacle and challenge that life will throw at you - and you will be equipped better than most to handle it.
Don't worry too much about the size and speed of the aircraft - just lead, fly and serve.
And if you do...you will have the greatest gift in life..
The nations profound gratitude.
Respectfully,
fv
I have skipped most of the replys and glanced at a few - no doubt all have merits. But I think the question you have asked is most interesting.
As you can see I never flew in the military - but wish i had. It just never happened for me - not through lack of trying I might add. BUT I tip my cap to those who have but I don't bow to any man who has - as I have had a fantastic aviation career.
I served my country in uniform in a minor reserve unit - proud, obscure with no deployment (never called, would have always answered) - but nonetheless - I wore the cap.
So listen here while I give you my humble view, not expert nor dim - just a view...
If you have an opportunity to attend one of the nations academies - and prove yourself a man, a leader, a carrier of the shield - never turn it down. It's a supreme privilege, one that will carry you through every obstacle and challenge that life will throw at you - and you will be equipped better than most to handle it.
Don't worry too much about the size and speed of the aircraft - just lead, fly and serve.
And if you do...you will have the greatest gift in life..
The nations profound gratitude.
Respectfully,
fv
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pilotyip
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You hit it on the nail, it is about serving and not what you fly. And as you approach retirement and look back, there is a sense of satisfaction that no other experience is life comes close to matching. I am truly blessed for having had the opportunity to serve.
StopNTSing
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What they lack in drones, they more than make up for with Helo's.
pilotyip
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That's right SWA doesn't think helo time is real flight time. I know the fixed wing brotherhood looks down on the helo drivers as lessor pilots, I mean they have never been to FL410, or done a M.78 descent. Hovering into a dark LZ on goggles is much more demanding of a pilot?s skills than shooting a Cat II approach. Someone has to figure out why uninformed management knuckleheads don't view a multi-crew Captain time in an advanced IFR helo like the H-60, H-46, H-53 or H-47 as not real flight time. However, PIC in a VFR only C-150 in the traffic pattern is the breakfast of champions for an airline career by those who set hard fixed wing limits like SWA and ignore helo time in total time. Why are most management and insurance company?s sooooo waaaayyyy out of touch with reality? Ops I am sorry I was management bashing again.
StopNTSing
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Actually, sounds more like someone posting either after really tying one on last night, or before that first big cup of morning joe.
I hope you are not confusing me with someone who actually has some say over what my airline considers competitive flight experience. I really don't. My only point...go Navy or especially Marines and while you won't (yet) be stuck driving a drone, there is a very good chance you will drive a helo. Nothing wrong with that, and thank you very much for your service, Lt. But good luck parlaying that into a job with SWA (or Delta, or AA, or United, or...) unless you can either finagle a fixed-wing assignment before separating (never a sure thing), or putting yourself through a lot of fixed-wing training on your own. Then it's a few more years in the bush leagues before finally catching the attention of a Major/Legacy. I've flown with plenty of dudes over the years who've done it, but it just takes a lot longer. Airplanes aren't helicopters, and helicopters aren't airplanes. I would no more expect PHI to show the least bit of interest in me, as I would expect SWA to offer a pilot position to a high-time helicopter pilot. That's all.
Jetdriver69
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Concerning the college route, I did it completely backasswards.
Enlisted in the Army, turned wrenches on Cobras in the 101st. Applied for Warrant flight school and got 1600 hrs helo time in 4 years.
While flying in Germany, I got my BS with Embry Ridiculous and applied for USAF flight school.
I did well enough in UPT to get FAR'ed. Don't know if they still classify with FAR or TTB. But I had zero interest in fighters, had enough of that shat flying on the East German border preparing for WW3.
Flew VIP and heavy types. I wanted to see the world and unless deployments are your thing, fighters don't travel like heavies. Of course then there is the airlines to think about for later.
Now all of my college time (Master's degree thrown in), enlisted time and both flight schools counted toward retirement and USAF OTS was a complete joke compared to Warrant Officer school.
I've had friends who wished they would have did ROTC or OTS and been a 90 days wonder instead of burning 4 or 5 years in C Springs and I've had others who won't give up their ring for anything. To each his own.
Concerning helo time, I have a standing $10,000 bet with any of the guys I fly with that they couldn't last 30 seconds in a basic, you do all the flying helicopter. A competant helicopter pilot can fly a fixed wing with very little instruction, it just doesn't work the other way around without a lot of teaching and some guys just can't hover. It is as simple as that.
For any airline goof to say helo time isn't real flight time, they don't know shat from a hole in the ground. I've been to FL 510, went supersonic, landed on every continent to include Antarctica and to over 90 countries and helicopters are much more challenging and fun to fly than the vast majority of fixed wing. (I didn't say all fixed wing, so don't get your panties in a twist.) Where else in the world can a 19 year old become an officer and be in command of a military helicopter? Tough to beat that.
Fighters are fun, but they are a young man's game. If you do get lucky enough to get your #1 choice out of UPT, unfortunately you will never fly the 7000 hrs flying fighters that I got in 20 years of flying heavies and helos.
I flew my entire career and didn't give a crap about making high rank. If rank is your thing and you are looking at a 20 plus year career, then I would recommend the USAFA. The USAFA will make it easier to get into UPT, but it won't make it easier to get through. In fact, a lot of academy grads tended to slack off (at least at the beginning) of UPT because they were so burnt out from the academy.
Your ranking and aircraft choice in UPT had to do with your ability, not where you went to school. I don't know if that has changed, but I doubt it. The #1 guy in my class got a F-16 and went to OTS with me.
It is a lot to think about and you will not be guaranteed anything if you go to the USAFA. You may be able to get into UPT, but a UAV or FAIP job may be in your future. But you have to graduate UPT first and that is no easy task, believe me.
If a OTS or ROTC grad is a better pilot than you, the first choice of assignment goes to that person and you may not even get one fighter in your drop in the first place. I've seen that before too and there is a lot of disappointed people on assignment night. Needs of the USAF and all that jazz.
Good luck!
Enlisted in the Army, turned wrenches on Cobras in the 101st. Applied for Warrant flight school and got 1600 hrs helo time in 4 years.
While flying in Germany, I got my BS with Embry Ridiculous and applied for USAF flight school.
I did well enough in UPT to get FAR'ed. Don't know if they still classify with FAR or TTB. But I had zero interest in fighters, had enough of that shat flying on the East German border preparing for WW3.
Flew VIP and heavy types. I wanted to see the world and unless deployments are your thing, fighters don't travel like heavies. Of course then there is the airlines to think about for later.
Now all of my college time (Master's degree thrown in), enlisted time and both flight schools counted toward retirement and USAF OTS was a complete joke compared to Warrant Officer school.
I've had friends who wished they would have did ROTC or OTS and been a 90 days wonder instead of burning 4 or 5 years in C Springs and I've had others who won't give up their ring for anything. To each his own.
Concerning helo time, I have a standing $10,000 bet with any of the guys I fly with that they couldn't last 30 seconds in a basic, you do all the flying helicopter. A competant helicopter pilot can fly a fixed wing with very little instruction, it just doesn't work the other way around without a lot of teaching and some guys just can't hover. It is as simple as that.
For any airline goof to say helo time isn't real flight time, they don't know shat from a hole in the ground. I've been to FL 510, went supersonic, landed on every continent to include Antarctica and to over 90 countries and helicopters are much more challenging and fun to fly than the vast majority of fixed wing. (I didn't say all fixed wing, so don't get your panties in a twist.) Where else in the world can a 19 year old become an officer and be in command of a military helicopter? Tough to beat that.
Fighters are fun, but they are a young man's game. If you do get lucky enough to get your #1 choice out of UPT, unfortunately you will never fly the 7000 hrs flying fighters that I got in 20 years of flying heavies and helos.
I flew my entire career and didn't give a crap about making high rank. If rank is your thing and you are looking at a 20 plus year career, then I would recommend the USAFA. The USAFA will make it easier to get into UPT, but it won't make it easier to get through. In fact, a lot of academy grads tended to slack off (at least at the beginning) of UPT because they were so burnt out from the academy.
Your ranking and aircraft choice in UPT had to do with your ability, not where you went to school. I don't know if that has changed, but I doubt it. The #1 guy in my class got a F-16 and went to OTS with me.
It is a lot to think about and you will not be guaranteed anything if you go to the USAFA. You may be able to get into UPT, but a UAV or FAIP job may be in your future. But you have to graduate UPT first and that is no easy task, believe me.
If a OTS or ROTC grad is a better pilot than you, the first choice of assignment goes to that person and you may not even get one fighter in your drop in the first place. I've seen that before too and there is a lot of disappointed people on assignment night. Needs of the USAF and all that jazz.
Good luck!
pilotyip
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Thank you well said. I have the same experience training helo drivers into fixed wing it is a no brainier once you get by lifting the left arm rest to get back on guide path. Ha ha
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USAFA is an awesome institution-on par with Ivy League, excellent curriculum, filled with lots of meaningful activities (many bs too), make life long friends, best odds of getting a UPT slot, etc. No doubt, you will always have the life long prestige being an academy grad. However, it's not for everybody. It's 4 years of a very structured life and very little freedom, at least for the first 2 years.
AFROTC is great way to go if you want to have a regular college life. I went through ROTC myself. UPT slots are a little harder to come by but definitely doable. OTS fills the slots unfilled by the USAFA and ROTC.
As many have said before, once you get to UPT, you are on your own. Source of commission doesn't play a role nor does your degree. As much as the Air Force would like for you to have a technical degree, it doesn't mean jack in UPT. I have a degree in Aero Engineering and I don't think it helped jack; it did, however, help me get a pilot slot. Having some civilian flying experience is more valuable, IMO. You are either going to kick ass, do okay, suck and just scrape by, or just plain wash out. I've seen DG academy grads wash out. I've also seen students with a degree in under water fire prevention from Podunk University DG out of UPT. I've seen this as a student as well as an AETC IP.
The key to success in UPT is attitude, hard work, and to a pretty huge degree is your God given hand to eye coordination. Some people are naturally good sticks and some just don't belong in a cockpit. The greatest factor is the timeline. The military has a certain allotted amount of money and time that they are willing to spend on an individual until they cut their losses, so if your light does not come on in that given timeline, you are SOL.
Jetdriver69: "Concerning helo time, I have a standing $10,000 bet with any of the guys I fly with that they couldn't last 30 seconds in a basic, you do all the flying helicopter. A competant helicopter pilot can fly a fixed wing with very little instruction, it just doesn't work the other way around without a lot of teaching and some guys just can't hover. It is as simple as that."
I have a few good rotor head friends. No disrespect but I disagree. This is JMO so don't get your panties in a wad.
Statistically speaking, some of the worst student pilots from primary go off to the helicopter track (and I've seen some horrific students). I'm not bashing helicopter pilots as some people prefer to fly helicopters. I have not seen anyone, I repeat anyone, who went off to Ft. Rucker wash out of that program. I'm sure there are washouts but I personally don't know of any.
AFROTC is great way to go if you want to have a regular college life. I went through ROTC myself. UPT slots are a little harder to come by but definitely doable. OTS fills the slots unfilled by the USAFA and ROTC.
As many have said before, once you get to UPT, you are on your own. Source of commission doesn't play a role nor does your degree. As much as the Air Force would like for you to have a technical degree, it doesn't mean jack in UPT. I have a degree in Aero Engineering and I don't think it helped jack; it did, however, help me get a pilot slot. Having some civilian flying experience is more valuable, IMO. You are either going to kick ass, do okay, suck and just scrape by, or just plain wash out. I've seen DG academy grads wash out. I've also seen students with a degree in under water fire prevention from Podunk University DG out of UPT. I've seen this as a student as well as an AETC IP.
The key to success in UPT is attitude, hard work, and to a pretty huge degree is your God given hand to eye coordination. Some people are naturally good sticks and some just don't belong in a cockpit. The greatest factor is the timeline. The military has a certain allotted amount of money and time that they are willing to spend on an individual until they cut their losses, so if your light does not come on in that given timeline, you are SOL.
Jetdriver69: "Concerning helo time, I have a standing $10,000 bet with any of the guys I fly with that they couldn't last 30 seconds in a basic, you do all the flying helicopter. A competant helicopter pilot can fly a fixed wing with very little instruction, it just doesn't work the other way around without a lot of teaching and some guys just can't hover. It is as simple as that."
I have a few good rotor head friends. No disrespect but I disagree. This is JMO so don't get your panties in a wad.
Statistically speaking, some of the worst student pilots from primary go off to the helicopter track (and I've seen some horrific students). I'm not bashing helicopter pilots as some people prefer to fly helicopters. I have not seen anyone, I repeat anyone, who went off to Ft. Rucker wash out of that program. I'm sure there are washouts but I personally don't know of any.
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Jetdriver69
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My helo flight school class did have quite a few wash outs, mostly those who couldn't hover. Unless you were teaching at Rucker, no one is going to advertise they were booted out of flight school for crappy performance. Kind of like discussing your severe erectile disfunction with a stranger.
If the USAF was stupid enough to use wash out UPT studs to then go to helo training and used it as a school for the dim witted, well they got what they paid for. I never saw that happen, but I wasn't a FAIP.
My bet still stands. Without a lot of prior instruction, most fixed wing pilots will lose control of a basic type (Hughes 300, Robinson, Bell 47) helicopter in very short order. Not only do you have the pedals, collective and cyclic to worry about, you have a manual throttle and that damn rpm governor.
Check out YouTube, there are many examples of well to do fixed wing pilots wrecking their new helicopters trying to hover and or fly without the benefit of much instruction.
Sorry, but fixed wing aircraft (with a few caveats) are easier to fly. I've flown both and that is my opinion.
I'm not talking missions, I'm talking basic aircraft flying. I've never done a night trap on a carrier or flown a medevac into a 1/2 mile vis into a confined area at night and don't want to.
Right now I'm flying a brand new G550 worldwide and am more of a computer programmer than a pilot. The pay is great but it is kind of boring as long as nothing goes wrong on those 14 hour and 6000 nm flights.
My panties aren't in a twist tonite, I'm going commando!
If the USAF was stupid enough to use wash out UPT studs to then go to helo training and used it as a school for the dim witted, well they got what they paid for. I never saw that happen, but I wasn't a FAIP.
My bet still stands. Without a lot of prior instruction, most fixed wing pilots will lose control of a basic type (Hughes 300, Robinson, Bell 47) helicopter in very short order. Not only do you have the pedals, collective and cyclic to worry about, you have a manual throttle and that damn rpm governor.
Check out YouTube, there are many examples of well to do fixed wing pilots wrecking their new helicopters trying to hover and or fly without the benefit of much instruction.
Sorry, but fixed wing aircraft (with a few caveats) are easier to fly. I've flown both and that is my opinion.
I'm not talking missions, I'm talking basic aircraft flying. I've never done a night trap on a carrier or flown a medevac into a 1/2 mile vis into a confined area at night and don't want to.
Right now I'm flying a brand new G550 worldwide and am more of a computer programmer than a pilot. The pay is great but it is kind of boring as long as nothing goes wrong on those 14 hour and 6000 nm flights.
My panties aren't in a twist tonite, I'm going commando!
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I've never flown helos so I don't have a leg to stand on. I'm only speaking from my personal experience. I know for a fact that everyone that I've known who went to Ft. Rucker got their wings and flew operationally. As for sending UPT washouts to Ft. Rucker.... that does not happen. Once you wash out, you are done-no second chance. After primary training (T-37 and now the T-6), students track select (T-38, T-1, T-44, and Helos) was what I meant.
Getting ones panties in a wad is fine; just keep it confidential is my recommendation to all. Going commando is a better option!:beer:
Getting ones panties in a wad is fine; just keep it confidential is my recommendation to all. Going commando is a better option!:beer:
pilotyip
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As Robert Lovett told Hap Arnold "A college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane" and 300,000 fantastic WWII pilots proved him right.
pilotyip
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oldie fits here
Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force
Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine
way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some
insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a
distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more
likely to thrive in?"
USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run.
Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high
standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch
and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their
enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is
homogeneous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect,
what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need
to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your
head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family
events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your
wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.
Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes
(surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is
split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy
is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great,
average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before
you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on
cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of
parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you
earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid
the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead
these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands
dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over
your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long
stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather
and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends
in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force.
Yes, the Naval Aviator is the best trained and most potent weapon in the
sky. He thinks independently, and very few are in his club. And some days
when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult
into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that
someone would pay you to do it. And, the hottest girl in the bar wants to
meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore .
Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask.....pack warm and good luck in
Colorado .
Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force
Academies. Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine
way to serve your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some
insight into which service would be the best choice. Each service has a
distinctly different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more
likely to thrive in?"
USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run.
Their training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high
standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch
and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their
enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is
homogeneous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect,
what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need
to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your
head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family
events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your
wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.
Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes
(surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is
split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy
is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great,
average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before
you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on
cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of
parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you
earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid
the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead
these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands
dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over
your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long
stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather
and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends
in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force.
Yes, the Naval Aviator is the best trained and most potent weapon in the
sky. He thinks independently, and very few are in his club. And some days
when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will catapult
into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be drop-jawed that
someone would pay you to do it. And, the hottest girl in the bar wants to
meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore .
Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask.....pack warm and good luck in
Colorado .
JimNtexas
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You're pretty close about the USAF, but I can pick a couple of nits:
Ahhh no.
That was pretty much true in the Cold War fighter force that I was in. I don't think it was ever true for the trash haulers.
Today's mini-force is tiny compared to what it was 20+ years ago. And our current tiny Air Force has more real world tasking than it ever did in the Cold War.
So even in the Air Force everyone is going to miss a lot family time these days. Even the fighter pilots.
It'd be child abuse to encourage a loved one to marry in to the Navy!!!!!
I was in a USAF squadron once where there was a scandal that involved...well... some squadron members getting a bit too friendly with some of the squadron spouses.
The Squadron Commander was enraged. "Don't poop in your own nest! Don't you guys know there is a Navy Base an hour's drive away, and the fleet is out!"
Ahhh no.
That was pretty much true in the Cold War fighter force that I was in. I don't think it was ever true for the trash haulers.
Today's mini-force is tiny compared to what it was 20+ years ago. And our current tiny Air Force has more real world tasking than it ever did in the Cold War.
So even in the Air Force everyone is going to miss a lot family time these days. Even the fighter pilots.
It'd be child abuse to encourage a loved one to marry in to the Navy!!!!!
I was in a USAF squadron once where there was a scandal that involved...well... some squadron members getting a bit too friendly with some of the squadron spouses.
The Squadron Commander was enraged. "Don't poop in your own nest! Don't you guys know there is a Navy Base an hour's drive away, and the fleet is out!"
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