USA Today on CAL 737 crash in Denver

[get2flyin]

"It is unusual to need a tiller in a 737 on a runway, regardless of wind," said Cox, a former US Airways pilot who is also a safety consultant. "In all my years, I never needed the tiller. The rudder steering was always sufficient."

Always nice to have a USAir pilot on hand to stab another pilot in the back. How many '73s did they wreck? I'm sure Mr. Cox is a hero in his own mind. Prick.

 

[yournextFO]

I think most captains would try to use the tiller if they realized their a/c was about to run off the runway.

 

[firstthird]

I think most captains would try to use the tiller if they realized their a/c was about to run off the runway.

They shouldn't unless they have full rudder in before trying it, imo. I'm no expert and have no knowledge or opinion on this accident. However, saying that using the tiller at highspeed is a good idea doesn't seem right to me. It seems that the rudder would be much more effective at yaw control at high speeds than those little nosetires.

 

[Mike man]

Both pilots remarked that all appeared normal until the aircraft began to deviate from the runway centerline. The Captain noted that the airplane suddenly diverged to the left, and attempts to correct the deviation with the rudder were unsuccessful. He stated that he briefly attempted to return the aircraft to the centerline by using the tiller to manipulate the steering of the nose gear but was unable to keep the aircraft on the runway.

http://ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2009/090107.html

This is from the NTSB update regarding the incident issued 1/7.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

They shouldn't unless they have full rudder in before trying it, imo.

Good info from the NTSB update. Sounds like they did exactly what you thought. Full rudder, then add tiller.

 

[Singlecoil]

Ok, I'm curious about something.

Let's take the accident case for example:

You are taking off to the north and have a strong crosswind out of the west. A left crosswind. Which technique do you use, A or B?

A. The wind is trying to roll the aircraft to the left so you need to hold right aileron as you takeoff.
B. You need to hold aileron into the wind so you should be holding left aileron as you takeoff.

Include in your answer how you would use the rudder as well.

And finally, would you change the above technique if it was a quartering tailwind or quartering headwind or does the headwind/tailwind factor not matter? i.e., you would hold the same aileron technique whether the crosswind was a quartering headwind or tailwind.

I only ask this because I recently flew with a 737 captain who used the wrong technique.

 

[glasspilot1]

"B"

Use rudder to stay on the runway center line.

 

[Whataburger]

Might be a dumb question, but can rudder hard-overs happen on the ground?

 

[pipe]

Might be a dumb question, but can rudder hard-overs happen on the ground?

interesting question. next time go to the sim i'm gonna see if the instructor can throw one of those in at 85kts

 

[pipe]

I'm not trying to "help" the investigation. I'll just say that when I push the thrust levers up my left hand is resting on the yoke or on my thigh. Period. Using the tiller at high speeds is a VERY BAD idea.

Gup

Where exactly are the "thrust levers" in a 737? Mine has throttles. The french use thrust levers (pronounced thrust leever).

PIPE

 

[PropPiedmont]

I don't understand.......According to the NTSB report.

The Captain has one hand on the tiller and one hand on the thrust levers (below V1)......Thant means no aileron input for the crosswind.

Sounds like bad pilot technique to me.

 

[Mike man]

I don't understand.......According to the NTSB report.

The Captain has one hand on the tiller and one hand on the thrust levers (below V1)......Thant means no aileron input for the crosswind.

That is not in the NTSB update. It says he tried the tiller once it was clear the airplane was leaving the runway, seems reasonable to me.

Is aileron into the wind proper in the 737? Or does is pop the spoilers on the upwind wing like the Airbus?

 

[Donsa320]

Ok, I'm curious about something.

Let's take the accident case for example:

You are taking off to the north and have a strong crosswind out of the west. A left crosswind. Which technique do you use, A or B?

A. The wind is trying to roll the aircraft to the left so you need to hold right aileron as you takeoff.
B. You need to hold aileron into the wind so you should be holding left aileron as you takeoff.

Include in your answer how you would use the rudder as well.

And finally, would you change the above technique if it was a quartering tailwind or quartering headwind or does the headwind/tailwind factor not matter? i.e., you would hold the same aileron technique whether the crosswind was a quartering headwind or tailwind.

I only ask this because I recently flew with a 737 captain who used the wrong technique.

"B" with the caveat that rudder is primary but in all the airplanes I've ever flown, the "down" aileron drag is effective in directional control. One should be cautious not to raise the upwind spoiler much with to aggressive aileron movement. I once had a line check pilot tell me not to do it in a A320. I asked why not?His reponse was it is fly by wire. Hmm, I asked why that would change the rules of aerodynamics? No response. I then requested that he write a letter to me copiing the Chief Pilot and the FAA saying I was not use crosswind aileron.

I never got the letter.

 

[DrewBlows]

Ok, I'm curious about something.

Let's take the accident case for example:

You are taking off to the north and have a strong crosswind out of the west. A left crosswind. Which technique do you use, A or B?

A. The wind is trying to roll the aircraft to the left so you need to hold right aileron as you takeoff.
B. You need to hold aileron into the wind so you should be holding left aileron as you takeoff.

Include in your answer how you would use the rudder as well.

And finally, would you change the above technique if it was a quartering tailwind or quartering headwind or does the headwind/tailwind factor not matter? i.e., you would hold the same aileron technique whether the crosswind was a quartering headwind or tailwind.

I only ask this because I recently flew with a 737 captain who used the wrong technique.

B. A tailwind turns into a head wind when you start rolling forward so technique would not change.

Note: On an aircraft with roll spoilers, aileron input on takeoff should not be so much as to activate spoilers, which would add significant drag to the upwind wing. This, of course, does not apply to the MU-2. I have no clue what technique to use in an aircraft without ailerons.

 

[get2flyin]

Is aileron into the wind proper in the 737? Or does is pop the spoilers on the upwind wing like the Airbus?

In strong crosswind I use a very small sidestick input into the wind in the Bus. I don't throw it to the stop or anything but I think it helps with aircraft control. Also, our FOM dictates using about 1/2 stick forward until 80 kts to insure the pedals give positive steering in strong crosswinds. Regardless, I've seen captains abandon the yoke to grab the tiller the second the aircraft touches down on a landing *(pretty sloppy, if you ask me) but I've never seen a guy ride the tiller down the runway on takeoff.