USA Today -- Airline Employment

[Rottweiller]

Dude,
You must live in the middle of Nebraska not in Chicago. I work 2 jobs, my fiancee 2 jobs, no kids, cars old but paid off, 1000 square foot 50+ year old home.....yes, we save a little off the $100,000 we made last year but it is not a lot of money these days.

Do you think there is an executive out there telling his buddy..."man, I'd be perfectly happy if I got $1 million severance, why are you complaining that you are only getting $3 million" I THINK NOT! WTF is wrong with some of you people?

You must have one fantasic life style, that's all I can say. I may only be single and an Rj Capt in the west burbs of Chicago but I still manage to put some $$ away, new house 18 months ago, new car 2 years ago and fly my own 'spam can' around for fun.

Don't get me wrong, more money would be great but I don't see that happening any time soon so I make the best of what I have got. It's time to stop bashing the regionals for everything and perhaps turn the aggression to the LCC's who are willing to operate on very small % margins flooding the market with thousands of low cost seats. Legacy carriers who traditionally operated on higher profit margins and thus able to pay more can not do so now, and in a lot of cases have to put regionals on routes to show a presence who operate at lower costs just to keep up.

 

[StaySeated]

Oh boy, I have read some dumb sh1t on this board but this has to top most threads. Did I actually read someone say that "six figures" was satisfactory? Don't any of you "professionals" communicate with anyone outside of this ridiculous aviation community? You can make 100k making pizza, or landscaping, or appraising, or being a facking doorman!!!I know because three of my best friends do all of these things, one of them makes it all cash/clear (don't tell the irs).
This whole "I am doing what I love" crap is so old and naive I can just see the managers and attorneys that represent them wet themselves when they read it. I read the USA today and was disgusted. We have lost the battle and are about to lose the war. Anyone that is content with the current state of the industry and the future direction of labor in this debacle deserves everything the receive. Come on, someone give me a rah rah about how great this is and how great that might it be. We are screwed. Narrow body flying is gone. Embraer's and Bombardiers are coming and the pay is a fraction of what is was. I am not an economist, but I believe that 55K is less than 155K and if Johnny 737 capt. made 155K last year and I "might" make 55K in a few years flying the same route in an Emb 170 than we have not made much progress. Oh wait, jets are cool and I am cool if I fly a jet and you know what, jets are cool. Jesus facking christ are we screwed or what?

 

[tzpilot]

I don't care about the money. I'm in it because I love to fly. If I top out at 60 grand a year flying an RJ my whole life, then so be it. I just want to be part of this industry.

Hey Riddleman,

I used to think like that when I left Riddle. I suggest you frame that quote and look back on it 10 years from now and let us know if you still feel the same way. By the way, which campus did you graduate from?

 

[thruthemurk]

Not everyone out there believes in bending their company over just to line their own pockets. .

wow. This post hits a new low in ignorance.

"bending the company over??" You have been brainwashed.

massa, massa did I do a real good job, massa?? Whatever you feel good about throwin my way..I be realllll happy fo yo generosity.

 

[che_rivera]

Attn: Secks, Pilotyip, & Swafo



1.pinnacle Airways Crj Crashed In Missouri Killing 2 Crewmembers
2.corporate Airways J-31 Crashed In Missouri Killing Three Crew Members And 16 Passengers
3.747 Crashed In Halifax Killing All 7 Crewmembers

Perhaps, You Would Like To Tell Them You Would To Fly For Free.

 

[USMC319]

QUOTE: " It's time to stop bashing the regionals for everything and perhaps turn the aggression to the LCC's who are willing to operate on very small % margins flooding the market with thousands of low cost seats. "

That's a pretty shi!!y thing to say Rottweiller. Are you management at a regional? BTW, if you have been absent from the industry for the last few years, your post better describes the game-plan for most of the legacies, not the LCCs. Here is a fresh idea; how about we (labor) figure out a way to keep our collective pay and benefits at a reasonable value instead of "turning our aggression to the LCCs".

 

[BSkin]

Why argue amongst ourselves? It is the way it is now. How many different factors over the years can you blame it on. I went into the Navy pilot program with dreams of making 3-400,000 bucks someday with Delta, American, Northwest, TWA, or USAir. That didn't and won't happen. I, as well as I'm sure just about every other career pilot out there, am doing the best I can to get the most out of this career. Sorry legacy guys and people that still believe it could be that way. I'll take my low 6 figure income (in a few years) and be very happy with it. And for those people that think my attitude is part of the problem -- no, it's a product of the problem.

 

[FN FAL]

Attn: Secks, Pilotyip, & Swafo



1.pinnacle Airways Crj Crashed In Missouri Killing 2 Crewmembers
2.corporate Airways J-31 Crashed In Missouri Killing Three Crew Members And 16 Passengers
3.747 Crashed In Halifax Killing All 7 Crewmembers

Perhaps, You Would Like To Tell Them You Would To Fly For Free.

I understand the sentiment, but since none of these crashes has been ruled on yet, wouldn't it be fair to say that in a hypothetical sense that all three of these crashes COULD become ruled as pilot error?

And if in fact these crashes become ruled pilot error, I'm supposed to ask negligent pilots what about wages?

Sorry, you lost me in the translation. I would wait until an accident is ruled on before using it in correlation to something like this thread.

 

[RJP]

I sure hope that none of the "wow, i love to fly for as little as they'll pay me" guys are on their union negotiating committee!

When's the last time your dentist took a pay-cut? He can't kill 100 people with one mistake but he probably pulls home half a mil a year. Sure he went to school. But so did you!

You're responsible professionals, stop acting like a bunch of little kids at an airshow.

Wow. Neat. I'd do that for free.

 

[capt. megadeth]

"I don't care about the money. I'm in it because I love to fly. If I top out at 60 grand a year flying an RJ my whole life, then so be it. I just want to be part of this industry."

Riddleman sounds like the 20 something FO I flew with earlier this year who is still living at home sucking off of mom's ta ta's. Making $22,000 a year he says "It's fun!" Dumb $hit! Dude, you are a complete **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing idiot.

Rez,
Amen brotha! I agree with you 100%....it's no wonder salaries are going down the tubes!

 

[capt. megadeth]

"You must have one fantasic life style, that's all I can say. I may only be single and an Rj Capt in the west burbs of Chicago but I still manage to put some $$ away, new house 18 months ago, new car 2 years ago and fly my own 'spam can' around for fun."

If you call driving a 1998 Avenger and 1995 purple Geo Metro, working half of my airline days off at my 2nd job, living in a 1000 square foot house a fantastic lifestyle....good for you. I do put money away and have 401k and Roth IRA...no toys though. Me treating myself is an occasional $4 Starbucks. Yeah, I have one fantastic lifestyle. My point was not that I am on the verge of bankruptcy....my point was that we all should not settle for $100,000 a year flying around in a TIN CAN RESPONSIBLE FOR HUNDREDS OF LIVES! And if you do....you are a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing dumba$$!

I am sorry....I had to vent!

 

[SWA/FO]

I don't work for free. I do quite well at SWA. I still like what I do. I am not on the negotiating committee at SWAPA. I do not wish to destroy this profession like so many other pilot groups have - I HAVE NEVER GIVEN MONEY BACK. You guys need to hold the line more save the profession!

 

[turn&pull]

I challenge anyone to find me a Dentist making 500K. Years ago that was possible if a dentist owned a few practices with other dentists working for him. 25 years ago a dentist would clear .50cents/dollar income. Now it is about .05 per dollar.

Same with Physicians...all over the country physicians are quitting and going into other lines of work. We have 2 working for our company who said they just couldn't make any money unless they went to work for Kaiser or something.

 

[Airpiraterob]

turn&pull,
ever considered a cosmetic dentist? the guys who put faces back together or install 'gold grilles' into your mouth..theyre important if you hope to have a good rap career. they cap your teeth and bond them together to give you a perfectly white Tony Robbins smile to hypnotize with. Those are they dentists that make the half mill.

age 60
-i can afford digital cable/Tivo W/HDtv
-an average yet decent house paid off (who needs 7 rooms)
-can go on vacation once a year
-can go visit family when i want to or need to.
-can enjoy a hobby.
-can afford food form the good grocery store...not Aldi's
this is the simple basic goal. (if you want more...ask yourself just why you need more)
how much money will get you this?
how much money are you trying to get at your job? is it more? and why do you desire that?

look at it this way. theres ALOT of people doing better than you are while making less than you do. no matter how frugal you may be (no heat...more sweaters) there WILL be someone doing more with less than you have.

my best friends dad. never made more than 50k a year. retiring next year with a nice house paid off and a Bass boat paid off...he will be able to do whatever he wants when retired and hes still married even........

so ask yourself....just what are you asking for? and what (if anything) iswrong about it? i'm not condonning the low rates and worthless payscales that may be in some of our futures...i'm just saying it's alright to get paid what youre worth, and attempt to be paid what you believe what you're worth, but its another thing entirelly to be asking for more just because its more than what youre getting now. by that reasoning its nothing short of being greedy. and morgan freeman and brad pitt saw what happened to that guy. he had all kinds of super expensive office space.(guess the movie) Sam Walton once said to a friend "nice office, expensive stuff....how much money does this make you?"

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Airrob, I don't think a person should feel "guilty" for wanting to make a decent wage. Especially when it is a unique position that requires unique skills. Granted, flying is becoming more automated and will continue to do so. If $50K is going to be a decent salary for flyers then they need to lower the quals (which companies won't do right now because of an abundance of pilots), drop the college degree requirement, and/or provide for all the training from ground up. Make it like the military in that regard.

Maybe when companies start having a hard time finding pilots the lights will go on. Until then this trend will probably continue.

After a while the costs are what they are. I don't understand this race to be the cheapest. It reminds me of some poor girl in high school where the only way she could get the attention of the boys was to dress provocatively and be known as "easy". Think the business leaders would want people to fly their airline not because "we're the cheapest" but because people want/like to fly your airline. With these simplistic ideas I'm sure I'll never make it to the ivory tower.

 

[Stinkbug]

Riddleman sounds like the 20 something FO I flew with earlier this year who is still living at home sucking off of mom's ta ta's. Making $22,000 a year he says "It's fun!" Dumb $hit! Dude, you are a complete **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**in g idiot

Why don't you get off your high horse and think about this for a second. At 22, how many of us had any real responsibilities, or life experience for that matter? I mean the kid's probably doing something he's been dreaming about since conception. Why the heck shouldn't he have fun? If you are gonna sit there and tell me you didn't have the same starry-eyed look on your face the first time you strapped into the cockpit of an airliner you are full of crap. Reality will set in for him like it has for the rest of us and perhaps then he'll become a staunch supporter for change. In the meantime, cut him and all the other "500 hour wonders" you people love to bash a little slack.

I also second what turn&pull said about physician's and dentist's wages. My general practitioner told me she has a friend or two in medicine who are having trouble making ends meet. The point is that the downward pressure on wages isn't limited solely to aviation. By all means, do what you can to stem the losses or even reverse the trend, if that's possible, but why pour derision on those who have learned the secret to being content with what they have? I personally admire and aspire to it.

 

[Airpiraterob]

sdf2buf2mco,

oh i agree totally. i'm just pointing out that because some people dont make "the most" then they get all grumpy and hostile when what they have now could be more than enough for whatever their plans are. perhaps thats a mentality for the regional board or something. not so much here although i do see it. there no guilt for making a decent wage.....but should there be for wanting to make decent+a whole boatload more? i dunno. its nice....but i dunno.

the guy who started mcDonalds said: "take care of the customer and they will take care of you" (his company was bought by the mcdonalds brothers and look at it now)

this is absolutely pertinent in all business. this should be enough. but you know what? business never gets enough. the move to mkae the costs cheaper in all walks of business pays off BIGTIME! if your product is cheaper to make....you can score bigger profits. once this 'light' went on there statred the race we have now. now its hit home where the cheapest ticket gets the buyer. i blame the mcdonalds brothers and sam walton. they showed how the cheap product makes bigger money faster than you could believe. the public GOT USED to it! and now they expect the biggest meal for the lowest price. the biggest airplane to ride on for the lowest price. they want a 747 to take them 200 miles with a meal and free everything for $200. they expect it now. and being taken care of is taking a back seat. if they hate your airline cause its uncomfortable and not very friendly, theyll be back cause its the cheapest ticket. i've seen service only matter when the ticket prices are the same. it goes price, free stuff, service. a 'value meal' wrapped up in an airline ticket. the stockholders see you make a profit one year....and if its not a BIGGER one next year, they get unhappy....noone can be happy making hte same profit year after year....it has to be more than last year.

ill take a #3 to boston please.

once this calms down, i really believe well see a stable industry again. one that can operate with profit. and when profits go up, pay will go up with it. i honestly believe in 5 years the future will be brighter and the industry much more stable.....unfortunately survival of the fittest is about to take place. i think im in a good spot now but im still on my guard. we all know its a big cycle industry....but this particular cycle will be a slow big one. and im not going to mention what that could be interpreted as.

 

[captain caveman]

RiddleMan80, you rock!

Check out this cool website I found:


http://www.tabexpress.com/free_training.htm

You'll love it, enjoy!

 

[Anaconda]

enough bickering...let's hear about that pinnacle hottie pictured on page two of the money section of usa today.

 

[Airpiraterob]

ohhh! someone post a link or something?

and about that free training deal at TAB....
nice to give them all that money and they dont have to pay you back interest or anything for letting them hold your money for 4 YEARS!...yes you get free flight training....but they make money off you.

 

[FN FAL]

Why don't you get off your high horse and think about this for a second. At 22, how many of us had any real responsibilities, or life experience for that matter?

Uhhh...by the time I was 21, I had already served four years in armed forces. If you're 22 and you haven't had any opportunity for real responsibility and real experience, it's only because you chose the easy life of sucking mammy's teat and living on your parents dime.

 

[Anaconda]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/jobcenter/2004-10-21-career-side_x.htm

 

[FN FAL]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/jobcenter/2004-10-21-career-side_x.htm

Typical..."I'm not a MAJOR airline pilot, but I do play one on television!"

I bet if management showed you guys some poontang on a regular basis, not only could they get you guys to pay for trainining, but they could get the salaries back down to a profitible 12,000 a year as well.

 

[schafjet]

The airlines will continue to undercut and lower wages of pilots until no one will want to work for sh!t wages. People who once had an interest in this industry will pursue other more finacially viable careers. After all people work to earn a living and create a nice life for themselves and their families. Once the wages hit rock bottom and people avoid this career like the plague, then maybe, just maybe, the airlines will have to do something to attract qualified candidates. At that point pilots may have bargaining power again and won't say "ya I'll work for less than I'm worth." Until then keep watching your wages go in the tank because we have people who will have the attitude "this is fun, I'd do it for nothing" (or at least next to nothing). Again, as pilots we are our own worst enemies.

 

[Publishers]

Relevance

Is there something at all relevant about a company being able to pay a particular wage..... If the company is making money hand over fist, does that mean the receptionist should be making $100k a year. No! not how things are at all.

Airlines do not exist to employ, the employ to produce. Produce profits for the business. While not diminishing the skill it takes to fly an aircraft, in the scheme of the business, the pilots are not a major element in success. They are an element in the production of the product, but understand this:

If you took your cost, added them together, then added your desired margin, this would be great. It would also be what the situation was during regulation.

Today, you look at the market, determine what you can get to have a share of the market, and then try and match your costs to them.

The bar does not get raised or lowered by your demands, it gets raised or lowered by what can fit the model. If Jetblue had to pay senior legacy airline wages from day one, they likely would never have started.

 

[pilotyip]

Human Nature

Remember the old board, pilots used to bad mouth SWA for paying "slave wages", and demeaning the respectability of the airline pilot. Now I see SWA as the industry standard and everyone and their brother trying to be hired by SWA. The only thing constant is change. So get ready for change. For those of us who have never made $120K/yr, we see nothing wrong with that pay level. For those who have made more and expected more, they see it as unacceptable. I believe the airlines will have no trouble staffing at that pay level, and in the end it may weed out those who do not really like to fly for a living.

 

[Stinkbug]

Uhhh...by the time I was 21, I had already served four years in armed forces. If you're 22 and you haven't had any opportunity for real responsibility and real experience, it's only because you chose the easy life of sucking mammy's teat and living on your parents dime.

Hat's off to you for your service...but let's not generalize too much. I too did my time in the Army - after four years of college (paid for by the Army and myself, by the way). I think the majority of newcomers to aviation at that age are coming into it with at least some college nowadays, and I don't consider that real life experience. Most are single and fending only for themselves, thus have very few responsibilities. Of course there are exceptions such as yourself, but to say that having no real experience is "only because you chose the easy life of sucking mammy's teat and living on your parents dime" is a bit of a stretch. I stand by what I said before. Cut the newbies some slack and allow them their honeymoon period with the airline job. They'll come around soon enough on their own.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Stink,
I am not on my "high horse"....you are right...I did have stars in my eyes. Somedays...I still do. But I never thought the $20K a year I was making was acceptable. Just like I don't think $100K a year is acceptable for a captain responsible for 150+ people while the CEO is raking in millions of dollars asking for employee paycuts. I thought commuters were a means to making more and not having to work 2 jobs for the rest of my life.
Also, I can't believe that comment about being young and having responsibility especially since you say you were in the service. Almost all of the soldiers in Iraq dying every day are in their early 20s. Now there's something to bi!ch about!

 

[Stinkbug]

capt. megadeth,

I would never disparage the contributions of our young troops in Iraq. Don't take what I said out of context. Once again, I was talking about the youngsters we see entering aviation these days...most of them are fresh out of college because they've been told it's a requirement for employment. Their first flying job is, more often than not, their first real "career" job. I would imagine the "Dumb $hit!" you flew with fits into that category.

I agree with you about the direction wages are going. I just was hoping you'd lighten up a little on the new kid with stars in his eyes.

 

[FN FAL]

Hat's off to you for your service...

Thanks...but nobody owes me anything. The government made good on the contract I signed with them and I took advantage of the educational assistance and the GI Bill regarding home loans. As far as I am concerened, we're square.

When I left high school at 17, by dropping out of the 12th grade and enlisting, I had finally had enough waiting. Patience my ass, it was time to go out in the world and do SOMETHING. I got sick of all the bs in high school and as well as with everybody else that didn't have a clue as to what they were going to do with themselves.

...but to say that having no real experience is "only because you chose the easy life of sucking mammy's teat and living on your parents dime" is a bit of a stretch. I stand by what I said before. Cut the newbies some slack and allow them their honeymoon period with the airline job. They'll come around soon enough on their own.

It may be stretch, but it is what it is. I don't really care if guy goes right out of highschool and gets into an aviation college and pursues a career. Never said anything about that. People do it all the time in lots of other careers as well.

However, if someone is complaining about not having any real life experience or real life responsibilities...it's only because they didn't pursue them.

I for one, as nice as my home life was, could not wait one more minute to get the ball rolling. It was time to strike out on my own and plant myself face first into the world...even if it meant making my mom come down with me to the navy recruiter and sign zee papers!