US Rejects United bid for loan guarante

[BLUE BAYOU]

I assume from your whining, attitude and profile you're a UAL pilot.

Boeingman, sorry I can't fulfill all of your dreams, I'm actually a jetBlue captain (hence BLUE BAYOU). BTW, Mr. Bethune quoted about a year ago and once again a few months ago that JB would be out of business within the year...

I only thought it interesting how tough this industry is and how quick some competitors can be when it comes time for blood. It should be a time of unity (no pun intended) amongst the airlines and I truly believe an airline the size of United will have a great impact on our industry if it does go bankrupt. Some things to consider: a bankrupt airline can do a lot of employee related downsizing-- in pay, benefits (retirements), and sheer numbers (layoffs). Additionally, they can become more competitive! If they do it right, a more lean and mean fighting machine can emerge...

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman, sorry I can't fulfill all of your dreams, I'm actually a jetBlue captain (hence BLUE BAYOU). BTW, Mr. Bethune quoted about a year ago and once again a few months ago that JB would be out of business within the year...

I only thought it interesting how tough this industry is and how quick some competitors can be when it comes time for blood. It should be a time of unity (no pun intended) amongst the airlines and I truly believe an airline the size of United will have a great impact on our industry if it does go bankrupt. Some things to consider: a bankrupt airline can do a lot of employee related downsizing-- in pay, benefits (retirements), and sheer numbers (layoffs). Additionally, they can become more competitive! If they do it right, a more lean and mean fighting machine can emerge...

I stand corrected, and now I understand your chip about Gordon.
It just initially ticked me off since I thought you were UAL and what he IS saying about them is spot on. Hence my irritation. Plus, I have a problem with the Brain Surgeons to begin with.
And here I was chastising that idiot Eaglefly for assumptions. Shame on me for mine.

Anyway, everything you're saying about a BK airline is correct. However in UAL's case, that is a completely different animal. They have burned through so much cash screwing around with the unions in a hopeless attempt to get what the ATSB is considering a viable business plan (one part from labor anyway). What assets they have are already being scoped by the creditors and no one, I mean no one is going to loan them money for DIP in this environment. Unless of course it is at high rates of interest. If they couldn't convince 3 people from the government with a flawed plan, there is no way they can sell the plan to actual lenders for DIP.

It seems to me that Tilton was putting all his eggs in one basket and the time frame for other options, especially financially has long since past. The handwriting is on the wall.

There is NO unity amongst the airlines or individual ALPA carriers.
Anyone that buys into that charade really hasn't experience the full force hosing pilots do unto themselves. I have seen ALPA eat their fellow brethren left and right over the years. I'd be happy to point out examples of our DAL friends and USAir brothers past transgressions, but it is history. UAL pilots are about to learn a very hard lesson. One that they will not only never forget but never be able to overcome. I predict Chapter 7 by next summer for them.

 

[SWA/FO]

You know its not just the low fare carriers that have hurt UAL, DAL, AA & NWA - what about Flexjet, Netjets & Flight options.

 

[rice]

I hate to say it and I hope I'm wrong but my money is on Boeingman.
Good Luck to everyone at UAL.

Rice

 

[beytzim]

Emb Guy,

You the man! Everything you said in your posts is right on. For the people who argued with you...well, they may never figure it out.

keep up the smart thinking.

 

[dispatchguy]

You know its not just the low fare carriers that have hurt UAL, DAL, AA & NWA - what about Flexjet, Netjets & Flight options.

Actually its not the LCC's that have hurt UAL, AA, and NWA, its their own incompetent, inept, and outright asinine (at least in UALs situation) management. What Goodwin and his minions did to UAL is criminal - and I'd say it to his face if I could. Its the same incompetent management that would announce a merger in the middle of the most contentous pilot contract negotiations that company had had to date. It's the same incompetent management that reduced travel agency commissions (say what you will, but travel agents are an airlines bread and butter); I worked at an agency a few years back where booking UAL was to be avoided at all costs due to the capping of commissions - who but someone incompetent (or just plain stupid), would bite the hand that feeds them?

All the LCCs do is provide a fair service, for a fair price, one that the network majors are unable to compete with at the same cost structure.

I wish the best to my former colleagues at UAL.

 

[Indapool]

So why is this news a surprise? Nearly everyone outside UAL saw this coming as soon as the "Industry Leading Contract" was signed. No surprise.

The LCC's had no nothing to do with it. Tell yourselves they did if it makes you feel any better.

And after it all shakes out it will still be the "ILC" that started the spiral that we all will experience.You can blame it on 9\11..you wouldn't be the first.

But in all fairness it wasn't your fault the loan guarantee was denied.

It was, IMHO, political.
Which foreign bank is owed the greatest amount of money?
Which foreign country has been adamantly against the current administrations foreign policy?
What administration has a documented history of battling organized labor?
And it goes on and on..

We are all tools...
Sorry to say but It's the nature of the job

That or my tinfoil hat is too tight

 

[superfly]

United and Ch. 11

Hey guys and gals,

I think you guys are wrong about the fate of the industry. If and when United files for bankcrupcy protection there will be a positive impact for the consumer initially. United will continue to fly and the creditors will be put in the bull pen. United will probablly have very competive prices to keep customers. Eventually United will be forced to shrink it's operation to settle debts and eliminate unprofitable routes.

While I admit loosing a job in a aviation slump is lousey (I have been furloughed as well), the industry is cyclical and will bounce back. United will emerge from bankcrupcy in about 2 years as a more efficient and competitive player.

After the initial shrinkage, other airlines will benifit because less RSM's means they can charge more and obtain higher yields. So while this is bad news for employees of United, it may be a just what this industry needs to rebound.

Just my opinion,
superfly

 

[dragon]

Chapter 7?

Boeingman

I have heard of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy but what exactly does chapter 7 entail?

Thanks

 

[Boeingman]

Re: Chapter 7?

Boeingman

I have heard of Chapter 11 Bankruptcy but what exactly does chapter 7 entail?

Thanks

Liquidation of the company to satisfy creditors.

 

[dragon]

Thanks!

 

[ms6073]

Like all bankruptcy proceedings, Chapter 7 is no less complicated than Chapter 11 but in simplest terms it is the disolution and liquidation of all a Corporations company (and subsidiary) assets so as to best satisfy the majority of the creditors that have an interest in the outcome and are party to the filing (listed in the bankruptcy petition).

I am by no means a lawyer (but my wife is ), but I beleive that in filing for Chapter 11 protection, the federal judge who has jurisdiction has the discretion (usually at the behest of the federally appointed bankruptcy trustee(s)) to convert the chapter 11 filing to chapter 7 liquidation if it can be shown that the company fails to follow its reorganization plan or that even with bankruptcy protection, the plan can be shown that the company will be unable to meet continuing obligations.

 

[Boeingman]

Like all bankruptcy proceedings, Chapter 7 is no less complicated than Chapter 11 but in simplest terms it is the disolution and liquidation of all a Corporations company (and subsidiary) assets so as to best satisfy the majority of the creditors that have an interest in the outcome and are party to the filing (listed in the bankruptcy petition).

I am by no means a lawyer (but my wife is ), but I beleive that in filing for Chapter 11 protection, the federal judge who has jurisdiction has the discretion (usually at the behest of the federally appointed bankruptcy trustee(s)) to convert the chapter 11 filing to chapter 7 liquidation if it can be shown that the company fails to follow its reorganization plan or that even with bankruptcy protection, the plan can be shown that the company will be unable to meet continuing obligations.

True statements. Don't forget that there are any number of outsiders who can petition the court for a involintary Chapet 7 proceeding as well. Usually it is from the creditors committee.

Another real throne is also going to be the PBGC regarding the underfunded pensions.

 

[rjcap]

Lets not forget that all parties involved are best served by the ongoing operation of United. Chapter 7 would be a painful process and not serve the creditors there full due.

My guess is you will see a very aggressive bankruptcy judge start the process of slashing expenses whereas a CEO would have been unable to execute such draconian (sp) cuts.

In the end United will hopefully become more competitive. The next series of issues will revolve around American and its ongoing losses.

cheers

 

[Publishers]

Work

While the power of the trustee is substantial, they in fact cannot just slash costs. This only happens when they take control from management which happens but not likely here.

What they do deals mostly with what has gone on before and limits the power of the creditors to do much about it. They do not however have to continue to do business with the new entity.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Now that the "Goose has laid the last golden egg and is about to be roasted "in the bankrupcy court"cooker". We can start with the recriminations. Reading in the Wallstreet Journal today we can start by blaming Steve Wolf for allowing the Esop, after all everyone knows if you give a cookie jar full of cookies to a bunch of kids, everyone is going to overindulge themselves. The booming economy of the late 90's masked some very real structural problems on the "cost side of the balance sheet.
Airlines have enormous financial leverage which like a pendulum
swings both ways. We are now observing the negative side of the
pendulum induced by recession, 9/11,etc. Free market forces
will now come into play(modified and orchestrated by a Bankrupcy
court judge. I think the court will meter out a dose of strong
medicine to all participants in the form of dramatically reduced
salaries, lease payments,vendor payments etc . In the words of the famous Yogi It's Deja VU all overagain. We have seen how
this stuation can play itself out viz a vi the Bankrupcies of the
past(Pan AM, Eastern, Braniff, TWA, USAir(in process)Continental
America west, Midway) I think the Unionized workforce at United
(led by the pilots, Flight attendants and mechanics will define
what the final outcome for United will be. There will be no time
for recriminations between each group if United is to survive.
New leadership may be necessary within each group to navigate
uncharted realities. stay tuned!!!

 

[Lifestyle]

EMB Guy,

I'm not a military guy and if you read my post you would see that I flew at CALEX. My guess is also we might have flown together being I was a Brasilia slug some time ago. It shames me to see you think Mainlines are selling regionals out. When I was at CALEX it disgusted me to see another RJ come on property. Sure it allowed me to upgrade quickly but I new every one that came online kept me at Express one day longer. Scope clauses were made to protect mainline flying and also to allow people in the profession to not be stuck working for subpar wages their whole life.

When I was at UAL (that's right I'm furloughed) I walked the informational picket line for Air Wisconsin. Plenty of Military pilots walked as well. Some of the best union guys I have met have been military. Despite my mainline uniform my heart still belonged to the profession. When UAL brought up wages it was a step to bring the whole industry up to standard, included the regionals. i was absolutely embarrassed what I made at CALEX and never forgot where I came from. So I helped my regional brethren to get better wages. The mainline pilots don't keep regional payscales down management does by dangling RJ's in front of your noses. First the 50 seater, now the 70, then the 90. When will the carrot dangling stop.

Granted United has terrible management but I'm still blaming LCC's for the professions problem. LCC's come in many different forms. Spirit, Southwest, AirTran, Mesa, Chitaqua, Trans States etc....The fact is pilots will work for pathetic wages. (This statement not aimed at the above carriers) Face it we love our job. Just because we like what we do doesn't mean shouldn't be paid for it. I'm not even going to touch when pilots paid companies so they would hire them.

I've excepted the fact I will never return to UAL and am perfectly happy with my new job in fractional world. However, my dedication to the profession will never cease. I hope Regionals get their pay up. I hope no one else loses their job. I just wish more pilots worked together instead of against each other. The pay in the professoin is going the wrong way and it's not the fault of a free market. $39 for a ticket that's pathetic.

 

[Lifestyle]

Boeingman,

I apologize for attacking you, it just seemed to me you were blaming the pilots for all of UAL's whoes. I still think we can agree to disagree but I think UAL problems came from mismanagement and LCC's. I'll never fault UALALPA for trying to bring up the wages of the profession. To do it all again I would still and will always try to raise the bar. At my new job I will continue to use this philosophy to make flying airplanes a worthwhile profession to stay in for those of us who rely on it to feed our family and do not have outside businesses to support us. I chose to fly airplanes for my career and I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if this profession turns into Greyhound. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,

I apologize for attacking you, it just seemed to me you were blaming the pilots for all of UAL's whoes. I still think we can agree to disagree but I think UAL problems came from mismanagement and LCC's. I'll never fault UALALPA for trying to bring up the wages of the profession. To do it all again I would still and will always try to raise the bar. At my new job I will continue to use this philosophy to make flying airplanes a worthwhile profession to stay in for those of us who rely on it to feed our family and do not have outside businesses to support us. I chose to fly airplanes for my career and I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if this profession turns into Greyhound. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.

No problem. I have very thick skin. Mostly because this airline stuff is basically just for fun now days. I can step back and look at some of this with zero emotion. I learned a long time ago what ALPA, airlines and pilots were all about. That is why I laugh at some of the people on this board with very bent perceptions & expectations regarding this industry and ALPA.

Reference UALALPA. My only comment is I am not condeming the effort about "raising the bar", but it was at a time when UAL simply could not afford the contract. I know in the old days the slowdowns and the "summer of discontent" tactics worked, but your leadership encouraged a plan that in todays environment was doomed to ultimate failure. The revenue from lost business was never recovered. (For those who want to flame, given the current crisis explain why market share was lost that was never recovered). You won the battle but lost the war.

Speaking of leadership. That MEC guy should of been drawn and quartered for his comments about "choking the goose". You can bet your britchs that every consumer group creditor and banker is using that as a rallying cry to stiff UAL. Right or wrong, it left the public with a real ugly perception not only of UAL, but unions and all airline pilots. Losing the battle of public perception is not a good idea.

Obviously ALPA is not the sole reason for the current UAL position, but as pilots we are the ones who suffer the most. We can all glad hand each other about our union brotherhood and such, but you'll see just how friendly your brothers from other airlines will treat you when it comes time to look for employment. Either by merger, asset sale etc. etc.

I am hearing some bad rumors that UAL is having a difficult time getting DIP financing. I have to believe that it is true since a BK is inevitible and given that, why continue to burn 8,000,000 a day in cash?

OK off my soapbox. Good luck, I think you should make the best of your current employment. I don't think you'll have an airline to go back to. It is a terrible thing to see such a waste. What is even more distressing, it seemed that nobody over there wanted to believe they could get into this situation.

P.S. I always supported the one list concept and flying with Express guys I have been very impressed with their attitude and flying skills.

 

[banned username 1]

I suppose I should chime in, eh?

I've read all of the posts with great interest about the causes and the possible futures that may befall my beloved UAL. Yes, beloved because it's like all of our families- there are some that you like, some you dislike, some that are idiots and some that are smart. But the bottom line is that they are your family and you stick together and work together to do what is necessary to get yourselves through the tough times. Sometimes, as with those with problems, they can't help themselves until they hit rock-bottom. I suppose this is rock-bottom, for the next alternative is nothingness, with no future.

While I've always said that there's enough blame to go around, I do lay the problems at the feet of management- and not just the feet of UAL Corp. Leaders are supposed to lead- and not necessarily in the direction of prosperity every time. They are also there to inform and to strategically plan. The union leadership, especially two and three years ago was woefully unwilling or unable to prepare the membership for the future realities whether there was a 9/11 or not. As I've posted before, it's no different than Darwin 101. You can figure it out. And as long as guys were willing to fly jets for a fraction of what your contract paid you, the outcome was inevitable. Couldn't pull them up, so you're going down.

And so here we are. Pretty much just a matter of time. Actually, I'm looking forward to it in a perverse way. After the dust settles, we'll be off the front page and it will be someone else's turn in the barrell- and don't think it won't happen. What I am sad for is all of the people whose lives will be disrupted in the process. What I can say to all of you without a shred of wishful thinking is that there will be a United for all of you to eventually come back to if you want. For those who predict otherwise is to forget the most important part of the equation- the human spirit. Frankly, I have no intention of letting any of you guys steal market share from me or mine. I'm going to do what I have to do in order to make sure that all the guys out on the street have a leaner, (and yes, meaner) UAL to come back to. And if that means flying my airplane for peanuts (pun intended), then that's what I'm going to do. I, and I'd bet tens of thousands of my family are making it our business to ensure that those self-styled experts out there who predict our demise are proved slightly freekin' incorrect.

Time will tell, won't it?

Be well,
UAL78

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: I suppose I should chime in, eh?

UAL78:

For the past few years, you have provided many intelligent, cogent posts, the vast majority of which I have agreed with wholeheartedly. I guess the strain of what is going on at UAL must be wearing on you to some degree, because I must take exception at an uncharacteristic "dig" in your last post.

You said:


And as long as guys were willing to fly jets for a fraction of what your contract paid you, the outcome was inevitable. Couldn't pull them up, so you're going down.

If you are referring to the LCC carriers, as seems obvious, let me clue you in to something that your brethren at UAL and DAL and others have not yet grasped: We are not being paid "a fraction" of what your guys are being paid. While it is true we are being paid less per hour, we are scheduled more productively, so the end result is we are being paid pretty well. Our average line may pay 85 hours, and we are probably flying 70-75 hrs for that pay.

In my first year at AirTran, my pay was "only" $37.50 per hour, and my W-2 for the year showed $44,000., or $39,500. if you back the per diem out. Not exactly a "fraction" of a UAL Shuttle newhire. Second year pay is $52./hr ($60K+)and by the third year, I'll be a Capt., expecting around $110K for the year. Twelfth year pay should be around $175K a year. Hmmmnn, for an airplane the size of what you guys were flying at the Shuttle, that hardly seems like we are pulling the industry down. We do have a company-funded retirement, profit-sharing, stock options, etc. etc. etc.

What I am trying to say here is that we are not "harming" the pilots at UAL. What "harmed" you guys, in my opinion, was the chowder-headed decisions of your management (Avolar??!??) and throwing bad money after bad pursuing the USAirways deal, not to mention your Union striking a contract that was un-doable from the moment it was signed.

That would make as much sense as me saying that if UAL didn't dump seats on our routes at prices that cause them to lose money in an effort to protect "market share", maybe our company could charge more money and pay us more- hell, maybe UAL is keeping our wages down . . .

Neither I nor anyone at any LCC wish you guys ill will, hell, we have mostly all been through ups and downs and know what it's like, so please think twice before you place the blame at the feet of pilots who were "willing to fly jets for a fraction" 'cause it just ain't true.

 

[SWA/FO]

Well said! Ty

 

[OakRBust]

I echo SWA FO



Nice Post TY!!

 

[rjcap]

Lifestyle,

Granted United has terrible management but I'm still blaming LCC's for the professions problem. LCC's come in many different forms. Spirit, Southwest

I can't believe you are blaming your competitors for your downfall.

I believe competition is the American way.

 

[banned username 1]

Touche!

Good response. I knew I was going to take some heat for that passage. Given time and as the LCC evolved I believe that forces would have dictated increased pay. Not that I have an inclination to get into a big debate with a thousand LCC pilots but let's face it folks, when the passengers are there (and at one time there were enough for everybody), the fares that could buy you a coast to coast ticket (or almost anywhere for that matter) were the same (or lower) than what I paid almost 30 years ago.

Next time you go shopping, look for anything that cost what it did 30 years ago (technology existing then, mind you).

I don't blame any of you guys for a thing. Your industry is really still in it's infancy and who knows where it will really go. If it's a crime to want a pilot of an RJ to make $100K, I'm guilty as charged. With the investment you're entrusted with, the trainig you underwent, the responsibility that you have, etc., your should be compensated accordingly. But if you're happy, who am I to complain? And I won't.

What ever caused the problems that spawned this string will be tended to. But as the guy pondered as he was flying to the ground in an unopened parachute- I bet this is gonna hurt.

UAL78

 

[dispatchguy]

Re: Re: I suppose I should chime in, eh?

What I am trying to say here is that we are not "harming" the pilots at UAL. What "harmed" you guys, in my opinion, was the chowder-headed decisions of your management (Avolar??!??) and throwing bad money after bad pursuing the USAirways deal, not to mention your Union striking a contract that was un-doable from the moment it was signed.
[/B]

What he said.

It would be different if UAL financially had been flying high right up until the moment that flights 93 and 175 were lost on 9/11/01. If that had been the case, I would've been more than happy to allow my tax money to support them to help them out of the post-9/11 hole.

However, that aint the case. UAL was totally mismanaged, and now they gotta pay the piper. It aint personal, its business.
UAL had financially been in the crapper ever since the Summer of Love (that summer cost them $500M in lost biz and passenger ill will), so, as a US taxpayer, I dont feel the slightest bit obligated to bail them out. All 9/11 did, besides be a horrible day for everyone, was accelerate the inevitable. Why as a taxpayer should I help pay for Avolar, or Project Yellowjacket (the USAir fiasco)???

If I am not mistaken, didnt the UAL ALPA MEC bring in Goodwin and Co when he was appointed to the board? I know he had been around UAL for a while, but wasnt it the MEC that moved to have him appointed to the board?

While I wish only the best to my former UAL colleagues (I'm now at a Low Cost Carrier), I just dont see how their inept, incompetent, and downright asinine management decisions becomes my problem, in the form of taxpayer money being thrown after bad decisions.

 

[Marko Ramius]

Dispatchguy

I believe that it was the IAM that first proposed Goodwin in lieu of Edwardson for the CEO position b/c the IAM didn't like him. They needed ALPA to go along because of the constraints of the supermajority ESOP voting powers. In the interest of employee unity ALPA went along with the IAM's lobbying. If it makes you feel any better, Creighton said that both were the wrong choice for CEO and the results would sucked either way!

 

[Caveman]

Two quotes from UAL78 from the same post:

"And as long as guys were willing to fly jets for a fraction of what your contract paid you, the outcome was inevitable. Couldn't pull them up, so you're going down. "

"I'm going to do what I have to do in order to make sure that all the guys out on the street have a leaner, (and yes, meaner) UAL to come back to. And if that means flying my airplane for peanuts (pun intended), then that's what I'm going to do."

On one hand those of us that are willing to fly for less than UAL plus 1% are the reason for your demise. On the other hand you are willing to fly for 'peanuts' for your own self serving interests. Why is it that when its time to feed your family 'substandard' wages are acceptable but when regional guys need to do the same thing we are labled as industry whores?

 

[climbhappy]

to echo caveman

and another thing.... markets don't work that way...why is it major guys bemoan the fact there are different pay scales at different companies... if the goal of alpa is to have a level playing field and one wage scale like the NFL, well, look at what happens to high price free agents when teams are over the salary cap. these aren't apples and oranges....these areapples to apples...it's called business

 

[Fast Eddie]

UAL78

Your angst is understandable, however remember there are
tens of thousands of pilots that have been through what you
are about to go through. The leaders of the various United labor
groups must sit down together and come up with a viable strategy to deal with all bankrupcy contingencies. The fact that
you will fly your airplane for peanuts does not necessarily guarantee that United will survive. There have been plenty of pilots that have flown for "peanuts"and the carrier has still failed.
You have to convince the Flight attendants and Mechanics to
perform for "peanuts" as well. I think your mechanics are in no
mood to take anymore givebacks. We all know what happened
at Eastern Airlines and it's mechanic group. One advantage that
the workforce has at United is that they should have a pretty
good handle on "inside data" as you have had 2 board of director
seats. If you don't know every financial nook and cranny then
shame on you. The mere fact that your in bankrupcy makes me
wonder about the "board of directors competency .I'm sure that
once this process unfolds there will be a few "revelation's forthcoming. As far as anyone "stealing "" "your" traffic I find this
statement juvenile. You allude to Darwinian theory. The last time
I checked ,the airlines operate in a "free market economy within
a capitalistic system. The paying passenger will exercise their
rights as consumers and buy their tickets from the carrier that represent the best value.
To say that other pilots are "stealing" your client base is
at best misguided and at worst a smear at them. Did anyone accuse United of stealing when they took over large chunks of PAn Am or benefited from traffic ouflows at Eastern, Continental, TWA, Midway etc. I think you have somewhat of an Elitist mentality. I have seen this same mind-set at Delta, American etc
I think it comes from complacency and smugness that size is
everything. Maybe some of the "fat cats" needed this wakeup call.