US Rejects United bid for loan guarante

[Publishers]

GB

Gordon Bethune has done a very credible job of bringing back CAL from its earlier problems.

It is his job to protect his shareholders. That includes being frist in line at the trough and also seeing that one airline does not benefit to the exclusion of his.

Think about it, would you expect the other carriers be in favor of a United bailout.

 

[Boeingman]

If CAL is so great financially, then why were they the first to squawk for money after 9/11?

Well lets see..... He was "squawking" for the entire industry and turns out we don't need or want the loans after all. Only those in desperate financial straights are crying for the loan guarantees.

I assume from your whining, attitude and profile you're a UAL pilot. If so, too bad for you. But your complaining is an insight to the systemic problem over there. Your unions, employees and management have refused to face economic and market reality for so long your company is on the brink of disaster. A guy like Bethune who pulls no punches and gets straight to the problems
is giving you people good advice. Unfortunatley, and especially in UAL's case what he and others have been saying for a long time are coming true but you fools keep shooting the messenger.

In the past your methods of dealing with people (the messengers) who try to fix or suggest fixes has been to replace them because they are not telling you all what you want to hear.
Real smart moves in this environment.

As a taxpayer I say tough crap if you shutdown. As an airline employee I say to you........Wake up from your coma over there before it is to late.

Although, I believe it already is. And I don't mean a Chapter 11 standpoint.

P.S. The only squawking about money from the ATSB lately has been from UAL. At least USAir is trying a viable plan of reorganization.

 

[Lifestyle]

Hey Boeingman,
Relax a little, Try and look at it another way. As a former CALEX and UAL pilot I must state some facts here. I tend to recall CAL pilots not supporting a one list staple and then as soon as 9/11 happened they gladly sent CAL pilots back to CALEX. CAL pilots have not been the most fair pilot group I've ever seen. Tripson and his gang are real fair and objective....NOT. Are they enjoying their ALPA pins? CAL has no scope clause and mainline CAL is just slowly withering away to CALEX. You want to talked about legalized B scale. Way to protect the industry standard CAL pilots. I hope you put a stop to this but I doubt it. Don't knock UAL pilots for trying to protect their airline and profession.

On another point, Can you blame UAL pilots and other labor groups to try to bring the airline industry pay up. Is that really a problem for you? It's great that a pilot can one day make 300K a year if he's lucky and has 30 plus years at United. What about all the guys who have been flying forever and still make no money! It's not United's fault to demand unreasonable pay it's the low cost carrier that is putting pressure on business. Control them and we have a decent profession to work in. It's only a matter of time before CAL feels some serious pain from low cost carriers. Have fun when your hero Gordo asks you for concessions to the point where you can't make a living pushing airplanes around. Remember, Gordo doesn't care about you, he must protect his investors. It's not fun so stop bagging UAL for trying to protect the industry for everyone. Don't receive joy from another persons misfortune. Happy Landings!

 

[eaglefly]

Gee, a senior CAL pilot.

Any chance you're a SCAB ?

That you Jimmy ?

 

[LEDSLEDDRVR]

We had some of those CAL "SCAB" types at a scheduled charter I worked at, including the son of a former CAL Chief Pilot.
As for the low cost carriers, they may be a thorn in the side of the majors, but they're here to stay and will probably get even larger. If you're trying to get rich in this industry, you is in da wrong bidness. I suggest you become a lawyer, they seem to be raking in the cash what with Enron and all.

 

[JimNtexas]

UAL stock trips circuit breaker

AP Business Writer
Friday, December 6, 2002; 12:00 AM


CHICAGO -- Trading in United Airlines' stock was halted after it plunged 59 percent Thursday, a day after the world's second-largest carrier lost its request for government loan backing it said was needed to keep it out of bankruptcy...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13247-2002Dec5.html

 

[Saabslime]

Personally I was hoping that United would get the loan (im not a United pilot). If they end up having to file chapter 11 it's going to hurt everyone. Two codeshare partners (United & USair) bankrupt and they'll be able to underprice every other major in the business. If that happens, you can forget about profits and jobs coming back anytime soon. God help us all........

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman,
Relax a little, Try and look at it another way. As a former CALEX and UAL pilot I must state some facts here. I tend to recall CAL pilots not supporting a one list staple and then as soon as 9/11 happened they gladly sent CAL pilots back to CALEX. CAL pilots have not been the most fair pilot group I've ever seen. Tripson and his gang are real fair and objective....NOT. Are they enjoying their ALPA pins? CAL has no scope clause and mainline CAL is just slowly withering away to CALEX. You want to talked about legalized B scale. Way to protect the industry standard CAL pilots. I hope you put a stop to this but I doubt it. Don't knock UAL pilots for trying to protect their airline and profession.

On another point, Can you blame UAL pilots and other labor groups to try to bring the airline industry pay up. Is that really a problem for you? It's great that a pilot can one day make 300K a year if he's lucky and has 30 plus years at United. What about all the guys who have been flying forever and still make no money! It's not United's fault to demand unreasonable pay it's the low cost carrier that is putting pressure on business. Control them and we have a decent profession to work in. It's only a matter of time before CAL feels some serious pain from low cost carriers. Have fun when your hero Gordo asks you for concessions to the point where you can't make a living pushing airplanes around. Remember, Gordo doesn't care about you, he must protect his investors. It's not fun so stop bagging UAL for trying to protect the industry for everyone. Don't receive joy from another persons misfortune. Happy Landings!

The pilots that got sent back were a part of a negotiated flow through agreement that allowed over 900 CALEX pilots to secure mainline jobs. You guys enjoyed the upswing and it's benefits but refuse to accept that there was a downside attached to a CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT.

Tripson? Waste of electrons to even talk about him.

All mainlines are withering away, not just CAL. It is the new economics of the industry. B scale? OK let’s talk to our DAL brothers about a true B scale. You're playing Symantec’s with what is going on at CAL is systemic to the industry.

Knocking UAL pilots for protecting the industry and profession? I predict that the contractual collapse of pilot pay scales that many either rightly or wrongly believe will be started over there. It is one thing to secure a decent contract, but frankly I believe the pay over there was never going to be able to be supported in this economic climate. It sure as hell was not going to be supported with UAL economics. FD's mantra about choking the golden goose is a very prophetic statement.

In retrospect we may all become very angered over ALPA pattern bargaining. Sure, great deal and we can laugh to the bank for a while but reality soon sets in. The age old tired phrase about setting new heights etc. etc .is only words. Ones that will ring hollow soon. Industry standard is a term that worked in the regulated industry. The term is meaningless in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong I want to maximize my pay and benefits to the limit. But I also want to retire with one uniform and not hit the streets again. I am pissed because you guys set the stage for an industry takedown given your economic environment in 2000. It is one thing to demand to be "paid up" It is another to demand it in a weak environment with a company already starting to falter financially due to years of blunders. It was a serious miscalculation that will cost us all in the long run.

The ripple effect of the UAL non cost effective contracts will spread to DAL, NWA and AA. You're nuts if you think all those carrier will not do anything in their power to push pilot wages lower. In light of this...can you honestly say it was prudent for UALALPA to squeeze the goose until it choked?

As far as CAL, my salary wouldn't even cover my taxes and expenses at a very successful business I own. Your threats fall on empty ears with me since I understand where this industry is headed. As long as we have pilots who will prostitute themselves to cross picket lines, work for start-ups with lousy pay the cycle will never end. I saw that in 83 when I walked and decided then and there to make my living on my own.

You think with UAL's costs you are not going to see pain? Let alone survive? 300K pilots? Sure more power to you, but there is no way the industry economics support that. You more or less said it yourself above. I know I will get flamed, go ahead. To those I say just look around at what is happening and ask how much longer you can bury your head in the sand?

Joy from another’s misfortunes? Do you remember the campaigns UAL aimed at CAL after the strike to put us out of business? How about during the strike? Even though I was on a picket line, it still pissed me off watching UAL guys do everything in their power to shut down a place that I hoped to eventually return to.

 

[Boeingman]

Gee, a senior CAL pilot.

Any chance you're a SCAB ?

That you Jimmy ?

Typical comment born and bred of ignorance. When the message differs from the mainstream thinking must be a scab right? Wrong.

Full term striker, 25 year ALPA member with star.

I'll accept your apology anytime.

 

[tothelineplz]

Perhaps someone priced themselves out of a job? What a yolk...1.8B in loan guarantees? Gimme a break. Maybe if all the pilots opted for pay and benefits equal to 1 dollar and the new CEO Chilton opted out of incentives and bonuses UAL could reduce their debt and perhaps be on Buffoon street. After all...Fedex employees put Jet A on their personal credit cards in the mid seventies and re-invested their own money into the now thriving company based upon a request from the founder. After all...how many pilots does UAL have? Say 4000 of the "senior" pilots opt for one dollar in pay this next year. 4000 times 200,000 equals 8 and 8 eggs. Or...in today's dollars...800,000,000. 1,800,000,000 divided by 365 equals 4.9 million per day. Or...another way...8600 pilots divided into the 1.8 billion dollar price tag makes just over 200 grand per per year. Now I understand not all are A-Level jumbo mortgage types, but, think how much power the pilots would yield in future labor negotiations if they bailed out their bosses on this one to ensure what the gubment just said "you've got to be spoofing me" to. Live on unemployment subsidized by your bank accounts people...a lot of pilots have to tighten their belts and stand in the bread line. But not when it absolutely positively has to be their over night. But who cares about the 352 additional team members on Team UAL...I was never in their shoes and trying to raise a family. Lest I be too idealistic in a not so perfect world. Just speed tape the problem. Come on. Bimme a break! P.S. Will someone please post their opinion on the effectiveness of contractual stragleholds like the "no furlough" clause work out...I'd be curious. Later...