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US Rejects United bid for loan guarante
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LEDSLEDDRVR
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2002
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- 43
UAL/US Air
Isn't it even more of a coinicedence that those SAME two carriers were just a couple years ago attempting to merge. The same two were not allowed to merge because of the size and market share they would have been. Gee, ya think this was planned? Kinda makes ya wonder. It would be good rumor FODDER
Isn't it even more of a coinicedence that those SAME two carriers were just a couple years ago attempting to merge. The same two were not allowed to merge because of the size and market share they would have been. Gee, ya think this was planned? Kinda makes ya wonder. It would be good rumor FODDER
Interesting stuff folks. It is amazing how we pilots know it all.
EMB guy: I don't claim to know much about anything, but it is my guess that most major pilots worked for a regional at one point. What amazes me about us "professional" pilots is it seems all that matters is "I've got mine". Pilots have always been looking past the current job for that holy grail--major airline. IF ALPA is holding down the regionals, pilots only have themselves to blame, and most of them came from a regional. As mentioned earlier, pilots are willing to farm themselves out to any flying job that pays better than their current job (especially if it's a bigger newer jet). Now, everyone who was making a stepping stone move at JB feels like a genius (no offense). This is all a cycle folks. Things will change, some for the better, some not. Start-ups can grow and seem like the greatest thing since FMS, but eventually the workforce wants some real payback (remember how much SWAPA originally wanted pay increased prior to Sept 11?)
All we seem to do as a group is b1tch about some other pilot group. We need to start acting like professionals.
See
EMB guy: I don't claim to know much about anything, but it is my guess that most major pilots worked for a regional at one point. What amazes me about us "professional" pilots is it seems all that matters is "I've got mine". Pilots have always been looking past the current job for that holy grail--major airline. IF ALPA is holding down the regionals, pilots only have themselves to blame, and most of them came from a regional. As mentioned earlier, pilots are willing to farm themselves out to any flying job that pays better than their current job (especially if it's a bigger newer jet). Now, everyone who was making a stepping stone move at JB feels like a genius (no offense). This is all a cycle folks. Things will change, some for the better, some not. Start-ups can grow and seem like the greatest thing since FMS, but eventually the workforce wants some real payback (remember how much SWAPA originally wanted pay increased prior to Sept 11?)
All we seem to do as a group is b1tch about some other pilot group. We need to start acting like professionals.
See
Lifesyle, There are plenty out there who agree with you.
It's seems so strange to me that the pilots at airlines (LLC's) with the lower pay scales seam to gloat at UAL problems. It also seems that they can't wait for DAL to "get what they have coming". It's seems like an attitude of "see what a great contract will get you, you guys should be over worked and underpaid just like us and you would still have a job." LLC pilots don't even have an A or B plan, in addition to being low paid. How can you guys be happy about that?
I still can't understand why anyone who has a career as a profesional pilot can't see that this is a very bad deal for all of our futures. I don't care if you are a major, regional, cargo, or LLC pilot. Guess what, UAL under Chapter 11 will chew into alot of carriers revenue. LLC's included. Just wait to see what happens to SWA revenue when AMR files Chap. 11 to remain competitive.
The problem is not entirely labor cost. It is also a revenue issue. Fairs are just plain ridiculous. SW advertises $39 dollar fairs, give me a break. I'm not sure you could walk to your destination cheaper. Looks like I better start my own business since I won't be able to send my kids to college as an airline pilot if these trends continue.
It's seems so strange to me that the pilots at airlines (LLC's) with the lower pay scales seam to gloat at UAL problems. It also seems that they can't wait for DAL to "get what they have coming". It's seems like an attitude of "see what a great contract will get you, you guys should be over worked and underpaid just like us and you would still have a job." LLC pilots don't even have an A or B plan, in addition to being low paid. How can you guys be happy about that?
I still can't understand why anyone who has a career as a profesional pilot can't see that this is a very bad deal for all of our futures. I don't care if you are a major, regional, cargo, or LLC pilot. Guess what, UAL under Chapter 11 will chew into alot of carriers revenue. LLC's included. Just wait to see what happens to SWA revenue when AMR files Chap. 11 to remain competitive.
The problem is not entirely labor cost. It is also a revenue issue. Fairs are just plain ridiculous. SW advertises $39 dollar fairs, give me a break. I'm not sure you could walk to your destination cheaper. Looks like I better start my own business since I won't be able to send my kids to college as an airline pilot if these trends continue.
EMB,
I have trouble believing civilian pilots are the minority, but I don't have have any data on this point. If you are running into a lot of military folks during IOE, my guess is they were not military pilots (helo maybe), otherwise they would, more than likely, have gone to a major (up until recently of course). I don't want a mil vs. civ flamefest here.
Like you said, someone who talks about controlling the LCC's is clueless to life. In a free market, you have to evolve. Remember Montgomery Ward? It's a little known fact that Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was created by them in an ad campaign many moons ago. They didn't evolve, and closed their doors shortly before Christmas a few years back. The list of airlines that didn't evolve is long. This evolution requires a team effort between labor and mgmt. Until this happens it will be rocky.
Time to fix dinner.
See
I have trouble believing civilian pilots are the minority, but I don't have have any data on this point. If you are running into a lot of military folks during IOE, my guess is they were not military pilots (helo maybe), otherwise they would, more than likely, have gone to a major (up until recently of course). I don't want a mil vs. civ flamefest here.
Like you said, someone who talks about controlling the LCC's is clueless to life. In a free market, you have to evolve. Remember Montgomery Ward? It's a little known fact that Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was created by them in an ad campaign many moons ago. They didn't evolve, and closed their doors shortly before Christmas a few years back. The list of airlines that didn't evolve is long. This evolution requires a team effort between labor and mgmt. Until this happens it will be rocky.
Time to fix dinner.
See
tothelineplz
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2002
- Posts
- 62
tothelineplz
Well-known member
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- Nov 23, 2002
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Slug
SWA Line Swine
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2001
- Posts
- 496
LEDSLEDDRVR
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2002
- Posts
- 43
Civies vs Milis
Most of my career thus far has been left seat in a jets, so I got lucky. I've flown with both Civilian Guys and Military guys. Folks, they can both fly. Even though I had an ex navy pilot flip out while landing in LAS because anything "power off" to them is considered a no no, or as he put it, "an unusal manuver". Having never been in the military before who knows what he ment. Although it's a great rivalry, both are good at what they do. Neither does anymore or less screw ups than the other.
FLY SAFE GANG
Most of my career thus far has been left seat in a jets, so I got lucky. I've flown with both Civilian Guys and Military guys. Folks, they can both fly. Even though I had an ex navy pilot flip out while landing in LAS because anything "power off" to them is considered a no no, or as he put it, "an unusal manuver". Having never been in the military before who knows what he ment. Although it's a great rivalry, both are good at what they do. Neither does anymore or less screw ups than the other.
FLY SAFE GANG
BLUE BAYOU
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2002
- Posts
- 836
Boeingman said:
Boeingman, sorry I can't fulfill all of your dreams, I'm actually a jetBlue captain (hence BLUE BAYOU). BTW, Mr. Bethune quoted about a year ago and once again a few months ago that JB would be out of business within the year...
I only thought it interesting how tough this industry is and how quick some competitors can be when it comes time for blood. It should be a time of unity (no pun intended) amongst the airlines and I truly believe an airline the size of United will have a great impact on our industry if it does go bankrupt. Some things to consider: a bankrupt airline can do a lot of employee related downsizing-- in pay, benefits (retirements), and sheer numbers (layoffs). Additionally, they can become more competitive! If they do it right, a more lean and mean fighting machine can emerge...
BLUE BAYOU said:
I stand corrected, and now I understand your chip about Gordon.
It just initially ticked me off since I thought you were UAL and what he IS saying about them is spot on. Hence my irritation. Plus, I have a problem with the Brain Surgeons to begin with.
And here I was chastising that idiot Eaglefly for assumptions. Shame on me for mine.
Anyway, everything you're saying about a BK airline is correct. However in UAL's case, that is a completely different animal. They have burned through so much cash screwing around with the unions in a hopeless attempt to get what the ATSB is considering a viable business plan (one part from labor anyway). What assets they have are already being scoped by the creditors and no one, I mean no one is going to loan them money for DIP in this environment. Unless of course it is at high rates of interest. If they couldn't convince 3 people from the government with a flawed plan, there is no way they can sell the plan to actual lenders for DIP.
It seems to me that Tilton was putting all his eggs in one basket and the time frame for other options, especially financially has long since past. The handwriting is on the wall.
There is NO unity amongst the airlines or individual ALPA carriers.
Anyone that buys into that charade really hasn't experience the full force hosing pilots do unto themselves. I have seen ALPA eat their fellow brethren left and right over the years. I'd be happy to point out examples of our DAL friends and USAir brothers past transgressions, but it is history. UAL pilots are about to learn a very hard lesson. One that they will not only never forget but never be able to overcome. I predict Chapter 7 by next summer for them.
Last edited:
dispatchguy
Dad is my favorite title
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 1,569
SWA/FO said:
Actually its not the LCC's that have hurt UAL, AA, and NWA, its their own incompetent, inept, and outright asinine (at least in UALs situation) management. What Goodwin and his minions did to UAL is criminal - and I'd say it to his face if I could. Its the same incompetent management that would announce a merger in the middle of the most contentous pilot contract negotiations that company had had to date. It's the same incompetent management that reduced travel agency commissions (say what you will, but travel agents are an airlines bread and butter); I worked at an agency a few years back where booking UAL was to be avoided at all costs due to the capping of commissions - who but someone incompetent (or just plain stupid), would bite the hand that feeds them?
All the LCCs do is provide a fair service, for a fair price, one that the network majors are unable to compete with at the same cost structure.
I wish the best to my former colleagues at UAL.
Indapool
25 characters is not enou
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2002
- Posts
- 225
So why is this news a surprise? Nearly everyone outside UAL saw this coming as soon as the "Industry Leading Contract" was signed. No surprise.
The LCC's had no nothing to do with it. Tell yourselves they did if it makes you feel any better.
And after it all shakes out it will still be the "ILC" that started the spiral that we all will experience.You can blame it on 9\11..you wouldn't be the first.
But in all fairness it wasn't your fault the loan guarantee was denied.
It was, IMHO, political.
Which foreign bank is owed the greatest amount of money?
Which foreign country has been adamantly against the current administrations foreign policy?
What administration has a documented history of battling organized labor?
And it goes on and on..
We are all tools...
Sorry to say but It's the nature of the job
That or my tinfoil hat is too tight
The LCC's had no nothing to do with it. Tell yourselves they did if it makes you feel any better.
And after it all shakes out it will still be the "ILC" that started the spiral that we all will experience.You can blame it on 9\11..you wouldn't be the first.
But in all fairness it wasn't your fault the loan guarantee was denied.
It was, IMHO, political.
Which foreign bank is owed the greatest amount of money?
Which foreign country has been adamantly against the current administrations foreign policy?
What administration has a documented history of battling organized labor?
And it goes on and on..
We are all tools...
Sorry to say but It's the nature of the job
That or my tinfoil hat is too tight
United and Ch. 11
Hey guys and gals,
I think you guys are wrong about the fate of the industry. If and when United files for bankcrupcy protection there will be a positive impact for the consumer initially. United will continue to fly and the creditors will be put in the bull pen. United will probablly have very competive prices to keep customers. Eventually United will be forced to shrink it's operation to settle debts and eliminate unprofitable routes.
While I admit loosing a job in a aviation slump is lousey (I have been furloughed as well), the industry is cyclical and will bounce back. United will emerge from bankcrupcy in about 2 years as a more efficient and competitive player.
After the initial shrinkage, other airlines will benifit because less RSM's means they can charge more and obtain higher yields. So while this is bad news for employees of United, it may be a just what this industry needs to rebound.
Just my opinion,
superfly
Hey guys and gals,
I think you guys are wrong about the fate of the industry. If and when United files for bankcrupcy protection there will be a positive impact for the consumer initially. United will continue to fly and the creditors will be put in the bull pen. United will probablly have very competive prices to keep customers. Eventually United will be forced to shrink it's operation to settle debts and eliminate unprofitable routes.
While I admit loosing a job in a aviation slump is lousey (I have been furloughed as well), the industry is cyclical and will bounce back. United will emerge from bankcrupcy in about 2 years as a more efficient and competitive player.
After the initial shrinkage, other airlines will benifit because less RSM's means they can charge more and obtain higher yields. So while this is bad news for employees of United, it may be a just what this industry needs to rebound.
Just my opinion,
superfly
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