US Rejects United bid for loan guarante

[JimNtexas]

UAL stock trips circuit breaker

AP Business Writer
Friday, December 6, 2002; 12:00 AM


CHICAGO -- Trading in United Airlines' stock was halted after it plunged 59 percent Thursday, a day after the world's second-largest carrier lost its request for government loan backing it said was needed to keep it out of bankruptcy...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13247-2002Dec5.html

 

[Saabslime]

Personally I was hoping that United would get the loan (im not a United pilot). If they end up having to file chapter 11 it's going to hurt everyone. Two codeshare partners (United & USair) bankrupt and they'll be able to underprice every other major in the business. If that happens, you can forget about profits and jobs coming back anytime soon. God help us all........

 

[Boeingman]

Hey Boeingman,
Relax a little, Try and look at it another way. As a former CALEX and UAL pilot I must state some facts here. I tend to recall CAL pilots not supporting a one list staple and then as soon as 9/11 happened they gladly sent CAL pilots back to CALEX. CAL pilots have not been the most fair pilot group I've ever seen. Tripson and his gang are real fair and objective....NOT. Are they enjoying their ALPA pins? CAL has no scope clause and mainline CAL is just slowly withering away to CALEX. You want to talked about legalized B scale. Way to protect the industry standard CAL pilots. I hope you put a stop to this but I doubt it. Don't knock UAL pilots for trying to protect their airline and profession.

On another point, Can you blame UAL pilots and other labor groups to try to bring the airline industry pay up. Is that really a problem for you? It's great that a pilot can one day make 300K a year if he's lucky and has 30 plus years at United. What about all the guys who have been flying forever and still make no money! It's not United's fault to demand unreasonable pay it's the low cost carrier that is putting pressure on business. Control them and we have a decent profession to work in. It's only a matter of time before CAL feels some serious pain from low cost carriers. Have fun when your hero Gordo asks you for concessions to the point where you can't make a living pushing airplanes around. Remember, Gordo doesn't care about you, he must protect his investors. It's not fun so stop bagging UAL for trying to protect the industry for everyone. Don't receive joy from another persons misfortune. Happy Landings!

The pilots that got sent back were a part of a negotiated flow through agreement that allowed over 900 CALEX pilots to secure mainline jobs. You guys enjoyed the upswing and it's benefits but refuse to accept that there was a downside attached to a CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT.

Tripson? Waste of electrons to even talk about him.

All mainlines are withering away, not just CAL. It is the new economics of the industry. B scale? OK let’s talk to our DAL brothers about a true B scale. You're playing Symantec’s with what is going on at CAL is systemic to the industry.

Knocking UAL pilots for protecting the industry and profession? I predict that the contractual collapse of pilot pay scales that many either rightly or wrongly believe will be started over there. It is one thing to secure a decent contract, but frankly I believe the pay over there was never going to be able to be supported in this economic climate. It sure as hell was not going to be supported with UAL economics. FD's mantra about choking the golden goose is a very prophetic statement.

In retrospect we may all become very angered over ALPA pattern bargaining. Sure, great deal and we can laugh to the bank for a while but reality soon sets in. The age old tired phrase about setting new heights etc. etc .is only words. Ones that will ring hollow soon. Industry standard is a term that worked in the regulated industry. The term is meaningless in this day and age.

Don't get me wrong I want to maximize my pay and benefits to the limit. But I also want to retire with one uniform and not hit the streets again. I am pissed because you guys set the stage for an industry takedown given your economic environment in 2000. It is one thing to demand to be "paid up" It is another to demand it in a weak environment with a company already starting to falter financially due to years of blunders. It was a serious miscalculation that will cost us all in the long run.

The ripple effect of the UAL non cost effective contracts will spread to DAL, NWA and AA. You're nuts if you think all those carrier will not do anything in their power to push pilot wages lower. In light of this...can you honestly say it was prudent for UALALPA to squeeze the goose until it choked?

As far as CAL, my salary wouldn't even cover my taxes and expenses at a very successful business I own. Your threats fall on empty ears with me since I understand where this industry is headed. As long as we have pilots who will prostitute themselves to cross picket lines, work for start-ups with lousy pay the cycle will never end. I saw that in 83 when I walked and decided then and there to make my living on my own.

You think with UAL's costs you are not going to see pain? Let alone survive? 300K pilots? Sure more power to you, but there is no way the industry economics support that. You more or less said it yourself above. I know I will get flamed, go ahead. To those I say just look around at what is happening and ask how much longer you can bury your head in the sand?

Joy from another’s misfortunes? Do you remember the campaigns UAL aimed at CAL after the strike to put us out of business? How about during the strike? Even though I was on a picket line, it still pissed me off watching UAL guys do everything in their power to shut down a place that I hoped to eventually return to.

 

[Boeingman]

Gee, a senior CAL pilot.

Any chance you're a SCAB ?

That you Jimmy ?

Typical comment born and bred of ignorance. When the message differs from the mainstream thinking must be a scab right? Wrong.

Full term striker, 25 year ALPA member with star.

I'll accept your apology anytime.

 

[tothelineplz]

Perhaps someone priced themselves out of a job? What a yolk...1.8B in loan guarantees? Gimme a break. Maybe if all the pilots opted for pay and benefits equal to 1 dollar and the new CEO Chilton opted out of incentives and bonuses UAL could reduce their debt and perhaps be on Buffoon street. After all...Fedex employees put Jet A on their personal credit cards in the mid seventies and re-invested their own money into the now thriving company based upon a request from the founder. After all...how many pilots does UAL have? Say 4000 of the "senior" pilots opt for one dollar in pay this next year. 4000 times 200,000 equals 8 and 8 eggs. Or...in today's dollars...800,000,000. 1,800,000,000 divided by 365 equals 4.9 million per day. Or...another way...8600 pilots divided into the 1.8 billion dollar price tag makes just over 200 grand per per year. Now I understand not all are A-Level jumbo mortgage types, but, think how much power the pilots would yield in future labor negotiations if they bailed out their bosses on this one to ensure what the gubment just said "you've got to be spoofing me" to. Live on unemployment subsidized by your bank accounts people...a lot of pilots have to tighten their belts and stand in the bread line. But not when it absolutely positively has to be their over night. But who cares about the 352 additional team members on Team UAL...I was never in their shoes and trying to raise a family. Lest I be too idealistic in a not so perfect world. Just speed tape the problem. Come on. Bimme a break! P.S. Will someone please post their opinion on the effectiveness of contractual stragleholds like the "no furlough" clause work out...I'd be curious. Later...

 

[Muddauber]

Remember Eastern?

Isn't it an amazing coincidence that the two airlines with the highest labor costs, UAL and US Air, are the two teetering on the brink of extinction?












.

 

[LEDSLEDDRVR]

UAL/US Air

Isn't it even more of a coinicedence that those SAME two carriers were just a couple years ago attempting to merge. The same two were not allowed to merge because of the size and market share they would have been. Gee, ya think this was planned? Kinda makes ya wonder. It would be good rumor FODDER

 

[Seeniner]

Interesting stuff folks. It is amazing how we pilots know it all.

EMB guy: I don't claim to know much about anything, but it is my guess that most major pilots worked for a regional at one point. What amazes me about us "professional" pilots is it seems all that matters is "I've got mine". Pilots have always been looking past the current job for that holy grail--major airline. IF ALPA is holding down the regionals, pilots only have themselves to blame, and most of them came from a regional. As mentioned earlier, pilots are willing to farm themselves out to any flying job that pays better than their current job (especially if it's a bigger newer jet). Now, everyone who was making a stepping stone move at JB feels like a genius (no offense). This is all a cycle folks. Things will change, some for the better, some not. Start-ups can grow and seem like the greatest thing since FMS, but eventually the workforce wants some real payback (remember how much SWAPA originally wanted pay increased prior to Sept 11?)

All we seem to do as a group is b1tch about some other pilot group. We need to start acting like professionals.

See

 

[Wise Guy]

Lifesyle, There are plenty out there who agree with you.

It's seems so strange to me that the pilots at airlines (LLC's) with the lower pay scales seam to gloat at UAL problems. It also seems that they can't wait for DAL to "get what they have coming". It's seems like an attitude of "see what a great contract will get you, you guys should be over worked and underpaid just like us and you would still have a job." LLC pilots don't even have an A or B plan, in addition to being low paid. How can you guys be happy about that?

I still can't understand why anyone who has a career as a profesional pilot can't see that this is a very bad deal for all of our futures. I don't care if you are a major, regional, cargo, or LLC pilot. Guess what, UAL under Chapter 11 will chew into alot of carriers revenue. LLC's included. Just wait to see what happens to SWA revenue when AMR files Chap. 11 to remain competitive.

The problem is not entirely labor cost. It is also a revenue issue. Fairs are just plain ridiculous. SW advertises $39 dollar fairs, give me a break. I'm not sure you could walk to your destination cheaper. Looks like I better start my own business since I won't be able to send my kids to college as an airline pilot if these trends continue.

 

[rjcap]

You have to evolve or perish.

You gotta love Darwin. He nailed it !

Change or Die - in business as in life.

 

[Seeniner]

EMB,
I have trouble believing civilian pilots are the minority, but I don't have have any data on this point. If you are running into a lot of military folks during IOE, my guess is they were not military pilots (helo maybe), otherwise they would, more than likely, have gone to a major (up until recently of course). I don't want a mil vs. civ flamefest here.

Like you said, someone who talks about controlling the LCC's is clueless to life. In a free market, you have to evolve. Remember Montgomery Ward? It's a little known fact that Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer was created by them in an ad campaign many moons ago. They didn't evolve, and closed their doors shortly before Christmas a few years back. The list of airlines that didn't evolve is long. This evolution requires a team effort between labor and mgmt. Until this happens it will be rocky.

Time to fix dinner.

See

 

[tothelineplz]

Fairs?

Dude? How many times have you seen "fares" in your life? Fairs? In a way I guess...this business is somewhat akin to a fair in some respects.. or at least a Carnival!

 

[tothelineplz]

Fairs comment meant for wise guy

!

 

[Slug]

?

And having never been there, how can you comment?

It was 50/50 at my UAL class, which was more military than usual. Of course, we are all no longer there. My IOE went fine and since you've never been at a major I'll disregard your subtle dig at military guys in a civilian world.


Slug

 

[LEDSLEDDRVR]

Civies vs Milis

Most of my career thus far has been left seat in a jets, so I got lucky. I've flown with both Civilian Guys and Military guys. Folks, they can both fly. Even though I had an ex navy pilot flip out while landing in LAS because anything "power off" to them is considered a no no, or as he put it, "an unusal manuver". Having never been in the military before who knows what he ment. Although it's a great rivalry, both are good at what they do. Neither does anymore or less screw ups than the other.
FLY SAFE GANG