US Rejects United bid for loan guarante

[dragon]

Thanks!

 

[ms6073]

Like all bankruptcy proceedings, Chapter 7 is no less complicated than Chapter 11 but in simplest terms it is the disolution and liquidation of all a Corporations company (and subsidiary) assets so as to best satisfy the majority of the creditors that have an interest in the outcome and are party to the filing (listed in the bankruptcy petition).

I am by no means a lawyer (but my wife is ), but I beleive that in filing for Chapter 11 protection, the federal judge who has jurisdiction has the discretion (usually at the behest of the federally appointed bankruptcy trustee(s)) to convert the chapter 11 filing to chapter 7 liquidation if it can be shown that the company fails to follow its reorganization plan or that even with bankruptcy protection, the plan can be shown that the company will be unable to meet continuing obligations.

 

[Boeingman]

Like all bankruptcy proceedings, Chapter 7 is no less complicated than Chapter 11 but in simplest terms it is the disolution and liquidation of all a Corporations company (and subsidiary) assets so as to best satisfy the majority of the creditors that have an interest in the outcome and are party to the filing (listed in the bankruptcy petition).

I am by no means a lawyer (but my wife is ), but I beleive that in filing for Chapter 11 protection, the federal judge who has jurisdiction has the discretion (usually at the behest of the federally appointed bankruptcy trustee(s)) to convert the chapter 11 filing to chapter 7 liquidation if it can be shown that the company fails to follow its reorganization plan or that even with bankruptcy protection, the plan can be shown that the company will be unable to meet continuing obligations.

True statements. Don't forget that there are any number of outsiders who can petition the court for a involintary Chapet 7 proceeding as well. Usually it is from the creditors committee.

Another real throne is also going to be the PBGC regarding the underfunded pensions.

 

[rjcap]

Lets not forget that all parties involved are best served by the ongoing operation of United. Chapter 7 would be a painful process and not serve the creditors there full due.

My guess is you will see a very aggressive bankruptcy judge start the process of slashing expenses whereas a CEO would have been unable to execute such draconian (sp) cuts.

In the end United will hopefully become more competitive. The next series of issues will revolve around American and its ongoing losses.

cheers

 

[Publishers]

Work

While the power of the trustee is substantial, they in fact cannot just slash costs. This only happens when they take control from management which happens but not likely here.

What they do deals mostly with what has gone on before and limits the power of the creditors to do much about it. They do not however have to continue to do business with the new entity.

 

[Fast Eddie]

Now that the "Goose has laid the last golden egg and is about to be roasted "in the bankrupcy court"cooker". We can start with the recriminations. Reading in the Wallstreet Journal today we can start by blaming Steve Wolf for allowing the Esop, after all everyone knows if you give a cookie jar full of cookies to a bunch of kids, everyone is going to overindulge themselves. The booming economy of the late 90's masked some very real structural problems on the "cost side of the balance sheet.
Airlines have enormous financial leverage which like a pendulum
swings both ways. We are now observing the negative side of the
pendulum induced by recession, 9/11,etc. Free market forces
will now come into play(modified and orchestrated by a Bankrupcy
court judge. I think the court will meter out a dose of strong
medicine to all participants in the form of dramatically reduced
salaries, lease payments,vendor payments etc . In the words of the famous Yogi It's Deja VU all overagain. We have seen how
this stuation can play itself out viz a vi the Bankrupcies of the
past(Pan AM, Eastern, Braniff, TWA, USAir(in process)Continental
America west, Midway) I think the Unionized workforce at United
(led by the pilots, Flight attendants and mechanics will define
what the final outcome for United will be. There will be no time
for recriminations between each group if United is to survive.
New leadership may be necessary within each group to navigate
uncharted realities. stay tuned!!!

 

[Lifestyle]

EMB Guy,

I'm not a military guy and if you read my post you would see that I flew at CALEX. My guess is also we might have flown together being I was a Brasilia slug some time ago. It shames me to see you think Mainlines are selling regionals out. When I was at CALEX it disgusted me to see another RJ come on property. Sure it allowed me to upgrade quickly but I new every one that came online kept me at Express one day longer. Scope clauses were made to protect mainline flying and also to allow people in the profession to not be stuck working for subpar wages their whole life.

When I was at UAL (that's right I'm furloughed) I walked the informational picket line for Air Wisconsin. Plenty of Military pilots walked as well. Some of the best union guys I have met have been military. Despite my mainline uniform my heart still belonged to the profession. When UAL brought up wages it was a step to bring the whole industry up to standard, included the regionals. i was absolutely embarrassed what I made at CALEX and never forgot where I came from. So I helped my regional brethren to get better wages. The mainline pilots don't keep regional payscales down management does by dangling RJ's in front of your noses. First the 50 seater, now the 70, then the 90. When will the carrot dangling stop.

Granted United has terrible management but I'm still blaming LCC's for the professions problem. LCC's come in many different forms. Spirit, Southwest, AirTran, Mesa, Chitaqua, Trans States etc....The fact is pilots will work for pathetic wages. (This statement not aimed at the above carriers) Face it we love our job. Just because we like what we do doesn't mean shouldn't be paid for it. I'm not even going to touch when pilots paid companies so they would hire them.

I've excepted the fact I will never return to UAL and am perfectly happy with my new job in fractional world. However, my dedication to the profession will never cease. I hope Regionals get their pay up. I hope no one else loses their job. I just wish more pilots worked together instead of against each other. The pay in the professoin is going the wrong way and it's not the fault of a free market. $39 for a ticket that's pathetic.

 

[Lifestyle]

Boeingman,

I apologize for attacking you, it just seemed to me you were blaming the pilots for all of UAL's whoes. I still think we can agree to disagree but I think UAL problems came from mismanagement and LCC's. I'll never fault UALALPA for trying to bring up the wages of the profession. To do it all again I would still and will always try to raise the bar. At my new job I will continue to use this philosophy to make flying airplanes a worthwhile profession to stay in for those of us who rely on it to feed our family and do not have outside businesses to support us. I chose to fly airplanes for my career and I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if this profession turns into Greyhound. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,

I apologize for attacking you, it just seemed to me you were blaming the pilots for all of UAL's whoes. I still think we can agree to disagree but I think UAL problems came from mismanagement and LCC's. I'll never fault UALALPA for trying to bring up the wages of the profession. To do it all again I would still and will always try to raise the bar. At my new job I will continue to use this philosophy to make flying airplanes a worthwhile profession to stay in for those of us who rely on it to feed our family and do not have outside businesses to support us. I chose to fly airplanes for my career and I'll be **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed if this profession turns into Greyhound. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent that.

No problem. I have very thick skin. Mostly because this airline stuff is basically just for fun now days. I can step back and look at some of this with zero emotion. I learned a long time ago what ALPA, airlines and pilots were all about. That is why I laugh at some of the people on this board with very bent perceptions & expectations regarding this industry and ALPA.

Reference UALALPA. My only comment is I am not condeming the effort about "raising the bar", but it was at a time when UAL simply could not afford the contract. I know in the old days the slowdowns and the "summer of discontent" tactics worked, but your leadership encouraged a plan that in todays environment was doomed to ultimate failure. The revenue from lost business was never recovered. (For those who want to flame, given the current crisis explain why market share was lost that was never recovered). You won the battle but lost the war.

Speaking of leadership. That MEC guy should of been drawn and quartered for his comments about "choking the goose". You can bet your britchs that every consumer group creditor and banker is using that as a rallying cry to stiff UAL. Right or wrong, it left the public with a real ugly perception not only of UAL, but unions and all airline pilots. Losing the battle of public perception is not a good idea.

Obviously ALPA is not the sole reason for the current UAL position, but as pilots we are the ones who suffer the most. We can all glad hand each other about our union brotherhood and such, but you'll see just how friendly your brothers from other airlines will treat you when it comes time to look for employment. Either by merger, asset sale etc. etc.

I am hearing some bad rumors that UAL is having a difficult time getting DIP financing. I have to believe that it is true since a BK is inevitible and given that, why continue to burn 8,000,000 a day in cash?

OK off my soapbox. Good luck, I think you should make the best of your current employment. I don't think you'll have an airline to go back to. It is a terrible thing to see such a waste. What is even more distressing, it seemed that nobody over there wanted to believe they could get into this situation.

P.S. I always supported the one list concept and flying with Express guys I have been very impressed with their attitude and flying skills.

 

[banned username 1]

I suppose I should chime in, eh?

I've read all of the posts with great interest about the causes and the possible futures that may befall my beloved UAL. Yes, beloved because it's like all of our families- there are some that you like, some you dislike, some that are idiots and some that are smart. But the bottom line is that they are your family and you stick together and work together to do what is necessary to get yourselves through the tough times. Sometimes, as with those with problems, they can't help themselves until they hit rock-bottom. I suppose this is rock-bottom, for the next alternative is nothingness, with no future.

While I've always said that there's enough blame to go around, I do lay the problems at the feet of management- and not just the feet of UAL Corp. Leaders are supposed to lead- and not necessarily in the direction of prosperity every time. They are also there to inform and to strategically plan. The union leadership, especially two and three years ago was woefully unwilling or unable to prepare the membership for the future realities whether there was a 9/11 or not. As I've posted before, it's no different than Darwin 101. You can figure it out. And as long as guys were willing to fly jets for a fraction of what your contract paid you, the outcome was inevitable. Couldn't pull them up, so you're going down.

And so here we are. Pretty much just a matter of time. Actually, I'm looking forward to it in a perverse way. After the dust settles, we'll be off the front page and it will be someone else's turn in the barrell- and don't think it won't happen. What I am sad for is all of the people whose lives will be disrupted in the process. What I can say to all of you without a shred of wishful thinking is that there will be a United for all of you to eventually come back to if you want. For those who predict otherwise is to forget the most important part of the equation- the human spirit. Frankly, I have no intention of letting any of you guys steal market share from me or mine. I'm going to do what I have to do in order to make sure that all the guys out on the street have a leaner, (and yes, meaner) UAL to come back to. And if that means flying my airplane for peanuts (pun intended), then that's what I'm going to do. I, and I'd bet tens of thousands of my family are making it our business to ensure that those self-styled experts out there who predict our demise are proved slightly freekin' incorrect.

Time will tell, won't it?

Be well,
UAL78