US Airways Sues Pilots

[charlie2]

Did Lee $eham tell you that or is that your own legal assessment?
It's a two-step process. The injunction will come first, probably within weeks. Second, any hiccup in the operation the company can document (and since you've read the Complaint you know they have outside consultants compiling data) and the fines begin. Not a big deal you think? Probably won't bankrupt USAPA but think about the effect on the contract negotiations. The company can make the fines and injunction go away for the lowly price of giving up your Change-of-Control language. So yes, my head-buried-in-the-sand colleague, an injunction is a very big deal indeed.
But don't take my word for it, just wait and see...

It's not my fault my grandkid covered my head with sand at the beach. It sure sounds like you're agreeing with me. There are no damages in this step. If and only if we go against a judges orders will there be fines and I bet there won't be one fine at all. I'm not saying that having an injunction ordered against you is good but we are making the company fight us! They know why we are mad. If Parker was serious about the no contract till the seniority issue is settled then we would have every other section agreed upon while waiting for the litigation on seniority to end. They wont even show up for negotiations so his statement about the seniority issue is a bold face lie. After this many years every section should be settled and when we get the word from a court about which seniority list is to be that section bingo we have a contract same day.

 

[TWA Dude]

If and only if we go against a judges orders will there be fines and I bet there won't be one fine at all.

That remains to be seen. I'd take that bet against you but unfortunately I can't trust any Eastie to adhere to any agreement.

If Parker was serious about the no contract till the seniority issue is settled then we would have every other section agreed upon while waiting for the litigation on seniority to end.

I disagree with that logic. From the company's point of view it makes more sense to drag out the whole process.

They wont even show up for negotiations so his statement about the seniority issue is a bold face lie.

Parker is undoubtedly lying about many things but you can't discount the fact that the seniority dispute originates only from USAPA. Parker is only following USAPA's lead for his own benefit. The second USAPA drops its demand to negotiate seniority Parker would have no more ammunition to delay getting a contract. According to the West negotiators in 2007 we were within months of a joint contract when the East pulled out. Parker isn't to blame for this mess.

 

[waveflyer]

The seniority issue has been settled- over 4 years ago. With your less than Virgin America pay, that's probably a $1/4M per pilot you've all given up. Z

 

[becket]

I'm not saying that having an injunction ordered against you is good but we are making the company fight us! They know why we are mad.

What are you referring to? I thought there wasn't an illegal job action going on? BTW, who is the "we" you're referring to? The West pilots performance stands in stark contrast to the East.

 

[Raoul Duke]

which really is the best evidence that there is a slow down on the east side. I was in CLT today and we were directed to taxi via the active around two or three buttholes for our departure.

 

[Fubijaakr]

The seniority issue has been settled- over 4 years ago. With your less than Virgin America pay, that's probably a $1/4M per pilot you've all given up. Z

You got that right, wavey. The pickleballers aren't known for intelligence, just intransigence.

 

[charlie2]

That remains to be seen. I'd take that bet against you but unfortunately I can't trust any Eastie to adhere to any agreement.I disagree with that logic. From the company's point of view it makes more sense to drag out the whole process.Parker is undoubtedly lying about many things but you can't discount the fact that the seniority dispute originates only from USAPA. Parker is only following USAPA's lead for his own benefit. The second USAPA drops its demand to negotiate seniority Parker would have no more ammunition to delay getting a contract. According to the West negotiators in 2007 we were within months of a joint contract when the East pulled out. Parker isn't to blame for this mess.

I guess the point I tried to make was that Parker could still drag this all out for years even with every other section complete. You can't argue that because if every section was complete except for the seniority we would still be waiting for their declaratory suit results. It would have been a better tactic for management in my opinion because they would have shown compliance with their part of the RLA...to negotiate in good faith. We couldn't have brought our suit against the company if they had done all this AND the company would still have no new contract with us...exactly like they have now and really love. Things would be much differant if this were so. If I saw sections with industry standard sick/vacation/rigs/pay/scope I would be much happier going to work and I don't think many pilots would be in the on board program.

 

[charlie2]

which really is the best evidence that there is a slow down on the east side. I was in CLT today and we were directed to taxi via the active around two or three buttholes for our departure.

Ya we invented a union slow down...no other union in the history of the world ever thought of it.

 

[charlie2]

What are you referring to? I thought there wasn't an illegal job action going on? BTW, who is the "we" you're referring to? The West pilots performance stands in stark contrast to the East.

The judge will decide the legallity of our actions. I'm guessing he/she will find some illegal actions and order an injunction like a few years ago at ALPA United and my buddy there sees no differance in his job except union e-mails no longer contain some wording...big deal. Oh Ya we might have to lose our lanyards...boo hooo.

 

[charlie2]

That remains to be seen. I'd take that bet against you but unfortunately I can't trust any Eastie to adhere to any agreement.I disagree with that logic. From the company's point of view it makes more sense to drag out the whole process.Parker is undoubtedly lying about many things but you can't discount the fact that the seniority dispute originates only from USAPA. Parker is only following USAPA's lead for his own benefit. The second USAPA drops its demand to negotiate seniority Parker would have no more ammunition to delay getting a contract. According to the West negotiators in 2007 we were within months of a joint contract when the East pulled out. Parker isn't to blame for this mess.

Oh there is no doubt that USAPA is the cause of the seniority dispute. I hate to say this again but if we dropped our DOH stance yesterday and went with the nic there would be no ratified contract until enough eastinfections retire and are replaced by neutral new hires to balance westies with original but declining in numbers easties. I think that would be around 2016. Remeber the same pilots that voted for USAPA are still on the property because of the age 65 thingy so these same pilots would be voting no on a contract containig the nic. Ironically this will be about the same time that you win DFR2...but we'll appeal.

 

[eaglesview]

Oh there is no doubt that USAPA is the cause of the seniority dispute. I hate to say this again but if we dropped our DOH stance yesterday and went with the nic there would be no ratified contract until enough eastinfections retire and are replaced by neutral new hires to balance westies with original but declining in numbers easties. I think that would be around 2016. Remeber the same pilots that voted for USAPA are still on the property because of the age 65 thingy so these same pilots would be voting no on a contract containig the nic. Ironically this will be about the same time that you win DFR2...but we'll appeal.

Bit of a leap of faith calling the new hires neutral. If it stays seperate they upgrade in about 5 years. put it together they upgrade in ????? In fact it's quite conceivable that some of the forloughees from the West that went East will upgrade faster with it seperate.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So letting 5-year "rookies" into the left seat is safe? USAPA speaks with forked tongue!

 

[vetrider]

Cleary already has some third listers mowing his lawn and carrying his water.

 

[TWA Dude]

I hate to say this again but if we dropped our DOH stance yesterday and went with the nic there would be no ratified contract until enough eastinfections retire and are replaced by neutral new hires to balance westies with original but declining in numbers easties.

That's a possibility but I don't share your certainty. Court injunction, loss of LOA 93 arbitration, watching all the other airlines getting new contracts; plenty of Easties will decide they've had enough delay. Guess we just won't know until we try, right?

 

[becket]

Cleary already has some third listers mowing his lawn and carrying his water.

That roll is about to change after Doug Parker personally ass rapes Cleary and liberates him of all wealth.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why isn't Sully rushing to USAPA's defense on these safety-related issues?

Sull-y? Sull-y? Here boy!...

 

[cactusboy53]

Bit of a leap of faith calling the new hires neutral. If it stays seperate they upgrade in about 5 years. put it together they upgrade in ????? In fact it's quite conceivable that some of the forloughees from the West that went East will upgrade faster with it seperate.

Newhire: "Hi, I'm Bob."

Oldhire: "Hello Bob. I want to school you on what you can look forward to. Even though you are a new hire, you can expect to be a captain here in PHL in 3 years or so, because of all the geezers that are going to retire or die. All you have to do is vote with us at all times to queer ANY contract that has the Nicolau Award."

...."Now this will have a cost. These things always do. You will never make more than $125 an hour. You will be working under the nations crappiest airline contract. You will only get 50% DH, Mechanical, etc., and the company will use our crappy contract to kick you in the nuts on a daily basis."

Newhire: "How long will this last? Won't the AirTran guys be making SWA wages soon?"

Oldhire: "FOREVER, Bob! If you ever FAIL to keep the Nicolau award out, the Westies will leapfrog over ALL of us to get to the A330! About the AirTrany / SWA guys.....Do you think you would really be happy there with the kind of $$, time off and benefits that those guys will make?"

Newhire: "Do we still get the 10% discount at Starbucks?"

Oldhire: "Of course we do! We're entitled! Ah.....I think I'll have a Prune Latte today....I'm feeling a little irregular. Now let me tell you a little bit about what it means to be safe here in PHL....."

 

[charlie2]

Bit of a leap of faith calling the new hires neutral. If it stays seperate they upgrade in about 5 years. put it together they upgrade in ????? In fact it's quite conceivable that some of the forloughees from the West that went East will upgrade faster with it seperate.

I agree but no matter how much we want to I don't think we can stay separate forever.

 

[ackattacker]

Any new hire would vote for a SLI if it came with a significant pay raise. Basic economics.

Make a spreadsheet... a "brand new" SWA FO, even if he never upgrades, will make roughly $400,000 more than a "brand new" US Air F/O who upgrades in 5 years, over the course of 12 years.

 

[charlie2]

Any new hire would vote for a SLI if it came with a significant pay raise. Basic economics.

Make a spreadsheet... a "brand new" SWA FO, even if he never upgrades, will make roughly $400,000 more than a "brand new" US Air F/O who upgrades in 5 years, over the course of 12 years.

Yes but you have to be hired there. I have had many friends who are great guys get turned down. How many pilots will SWA hire in the next ten years? We will hire more than 2 thousand.

 

[dicko]

The seniority issue has been settled- over 4 years ago. With your less than Virgin America pay, that's probably a $1/4M per pilot you've all given up. Z

Wave doesn't like it when pilots don't abide by binding arbitration. Unless it's him of course.

Then he'd do anything. There's a word for that sort of thinking ....

 

[ackattacker]

Yes but you have to be hired there. I have had many friends who are great guys get turned down. How many pilots will SWA hire in the next ten years? We will hire more than 2 thousand.

Sure, but the point was that if Airways can move towards a higher pay scale (and better work rules) the long-term career earnings of a new guy go way up despite the minor upgrade setback. Even a 10% pay increase goes a long way when multiplied by 30 years. Basically the younger you are the more important it is. Obviously the Geezers have a lot more to gain from holding up the SLI and getting a little captain pay in their last few years before retirement.

 

[weasel_lips]

...."Now this will have a cost. These things always do. You will never make more than $125 an hour.

Better check your "data"

The 757/767 pays $144
A330 pays $160 an hour.

The 757 pays more on the east then on the west...
You dont have any A330's and never will.......


Newhires will be upgrading right away here shortly... I doubt they are going to be interested in giving up their upgrades....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Obviously the Geezers have a lot more to gain from holding up the SLI and getting a little captain pay in their last few years before retirement.

Only if you believe the fear mongering coming out of USAPA. With NIC 2/3 of the geezers upgrade anyhow AND they do so at a substantially higher pay rate.

Better to hide under the covers and take what the company is generous enough to give you.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yes of course, it's those pesky 1149+ that the '05 hires want to make sure they upgrade in front of.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

I'll bet the next contract has a max 3 yr furlough then you're fired. Furloughed bring no job to the table and should be stapled. US never had E170's on it's ops specs, thus Midlantic pilots were not US.

 

[becket]

I'll bet the next contract has a max 3 yr furlough then you're fired. Furloughed bring no job to the table and should be stapled. US never had E170's on it's ops specs, thus Midlantic pilots were not US.

Furloughed IS stapled. The Arbitrator, George Nicalau, the one the EAST chose said so. It's written in stone regardless of the temper tantrums and Illegal games played by the East.

 

[Flybywire44]

Newhire: "Hi, I'm Bob."

Oldhire: "Hello Bob. I want to school you on what you can look forward to. Even though you are a new hire, you can expect to be a captain here in PHL in 3 years or so, because of all the geezers that are going to retire or die. All you have to do is vote with us at all times to queer ANY contract that has the Nicolau Award."

...."Now this will have a cost. These things always do. You will never make more than $125 an hour. You will be working under the nations crappiest airline contract. You will only get 50% DH, Mechanical, etc., and the company will use our crappy contract to kick you in the nuts on a daily basis."

Newhire: "How long will this last? Won't the AirTran guys be making SWA wages soon?"

Oldhire: "FOREVER, Bob! If you ever FAIL to keep the Nicolau award out, the Westies will leapfrog over ALL of us to get to the A330! About the AirTrany / SWA guys.....Do you think you would really be happy there with the kind of $$, time off and benefits that those guys will make?"

Newhire: "Do we still get the 10% discount at Starbucks?"

Oldhire: "Of course we do! We're entitled! Ah.....I think I'll have a Prune Latte today....I'm feeling a little irregular. Now let me tell you a little bit about what it means to be safe here in PHL....."

New hires could care less. They only want the airline to stay in business, a pay raise and better work rules.

 

[bendover]

the union won't lose this one, obama will step in and save the day for labor, right? isn't he suppose to be pro union / labor? This would never happen if we elected a democrat on his watch, right?

 

[Whine Lover]

Sounds like a great place to work. How do I apply again?

Can't wait to spend 20 years as an FO and top out at 85k/year after 12 years, all the while being sued by USAPA and/or the Company.

Sweet.