US Airways snap-back?

[Sandhawk]

Just remember, all of the atttrition on the East will NOT be from the top of the seniority list.....

 

[Crzipilot]

Reading comprehension 101. I believe the original question was somebody looking to come here. And all the numbers posted the rhetoric to go with it, was stating that someone hired here this year. Hence, so all the retirements would be ahead of him.

Even someone in the middle of the list. 50-80% retirement rate in the next 10+ years, I don't care who you are, it's going to improve your QOL.....

I mean really, current bid shows 2600 active line pilots, Last seniority list I have seen Oct 09 shows 3494 Company seniority and 3463 Current seniority. This includes all mgmt LOA and Meds.

By 2025, there are 2700 retirements on the east. So obviously inside of there is some management types and MEDs etc......but essentially 2025 you have a mighty big churn of the seniority list no matter where you sit on it.

Even looking at just 10 years out 2022. 1993 retirements. 2600 pilots flying the line...3494 on current list. Or 57% of current seniority list or 76% or current on the line. So your best guess is somewhere between those two numbers.

Now explain to me why a new hire would want an extra 1800 pilots put on top of him? Before you mention the pay difference. Here's the year by year break down for Grp II (737 / 320)

2 6.00
3 7.00
4 3.00
5 8.00
6 8.00
7 7.00
8 6.00
9 6.00
10. 5.00

Or roughly 56k in 10 years, or 5600/year the west if paid more. BUT a new hire without a combined list will have what 2000 extra pilots below him at the end of that 10 years. To make up that difference of 5600/year at a low estimate average pay rate of 70.00/hr They would have to fly about an average of 8hours above rsv guarantee a month to make that difference up. I think the QOL of 2000 pilots below them at the end of 10 years far outweighs that 5600/year average pay diffference

But if they can hold 75 somewhere in there US pays more by this differential

2 4.00
3 3.00
4 9.00
5 4.00
6 3.00
7 6.00
8 7.00
9 7.00
10 9.00

 

[TWA Dude]

Read the first red highlights. Seems to me it says, even if the proposal is not the NIC, that in itself does not work the disadvantages the Plaintiffs fear.

What's the line mean to you?

Nothing. The court overturned the case based on ripeness, not merit. They made no ruling on the merits of the case.

As to what the company thinks??? I'm sure their thinking will change upon the outcome of the LOA 93 grievance.

I don't see the connection between the grievance and the seniority list. I fully expect the company to win but just for the sake of discussion if they lost I'd expect them to go through bankruptcy again to mitigate it.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Read the first red highlights. Seems to me it says, even if the proposal is not the NIC, that in itself does not work the disadvantages the Plaintiffs fear.

What's the line mean to you?


Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

To me it means: The courts assume that USAPA is wise enough to submit a seniority proposal that does not disadvantage the west like the "DOH without adjustment for LOS dream list" that they already presented to the company.

Fortunately, USAPA is too arrogant to compromise on their "dream list", therefore making DFR II unquestionably ripe.

 

[Carl S.]

Pay is just a small part of the nightmare called LOA 93. Have you seen the work rules, vacation and forced 95 hour months. If a flight is canceled out East, hope a nice trip is in open time or there goes your pay! Seperate ops is not a solution for USAPA to avoid the NIC., but the WEST and the company will one day get to a joint contract with or without EAST participation, I'm betting on BK.

 

[Crzipilot]

Yup. that cancellation pay thing. Doesn't quite work THAT bad, had a 3 day, flew 6 hours of it, got paid 16 hours + 4 hours on top of guarantee. Not a bad 3 day trip. Nope Nope, not looking for open time to pick up...

Vacation, well that was a sell out by ALPA....don't get me started on that thinking.

Forced 95 hours??? Nope...never been forced to fly 95. Most guys, even during 95 hour months, seem to fly around 80 hours a month....maybe 85. Quite a few like to go down further than that....

 

[Guppiedriver]

Vacation, well that was a sell out by ALPA....don't get me started on that thinking.

ALPA National sold you out on a vacation proposal? I call BS on that.

Why is it always someone else's fault with you guys?

 

[Tweaker]

They ain't declaring bankrupcy because of losing this pay grievance or that. Come on now, chillrens. Be sensible!

 

[Crzipilot]

ALPA National sold you out on a vacation proposal? I call BS on that.

Why is it always someone else's fault with you guys?

Local ALPA and their national advisors. 2nd bk, they had to give the company relief of items to save the company money.

One of things given back was Vacation for those 8 yrs and under. WOW what a cost savings the company received from that 0 dollars. There wasn't anyone on property with less than 8 yrs at that time, BUT ALPA goons gave it away!??! Why? Advisors obviously costed out the proposals...no? peanut butter jars on and off the shelf.

So essientially, once again... ALPA / National / Senior...sold out those jr.

 

[get2flyin]

Local ALPA and their national advisers. 2nd bk, they had to give the company relief of items to save the company money.

One of things given back was Vacation for those 8 yrs and under. WOW what a cost savings the company received from that 0 dollars. There wasn't anyone on property with less than 8 yrs at that time, BUT ALPA goons gave it away!??! Why? Advisers obviously costed out the proposals...no? peanut butter jars on and off the shelf.

So (essentially), once again... ALPA / National / Senior...sold out those jr.

YOUR senior pilots sold out guys who hadn't been hired yet in an effort to save their pensions. You played a gamble and lost. Stop blaming ALPA national for your own failings.

 

[Crzipilot]

No you D** Sh*** those guys had been hired....thank you.

No wonder AW was where it was.....comprehension of 4th graders...

 

[get2flyin]

YOU wrote:

Local ALPA and their national advisors. 2nd bk, they had to give the company relief of items to save the company money.

One of things given back was Vacation for those 8 yrs and under. WOW what a cost savings the company received from that 0 dollars. There wasn't anyone on property with less than 8 yrs at that time, BUT ALPA goons gave it away!??! Why? Advisors obviously costed out the proposals...no? peanut butter jars on and off the shelf.

So essientially, once again... ALPA / National / Senior...sold out those jr.

I replied:

YOUR senior pilots sold out guys who hadn't been hired yet in an effort to save their pensions. You played a gamble and lost. Stop blaming ALPA national for your own failings.

You responded:

No you D** Sh*** those guys had been hired....thank you.

No wonder AW was where it was.....comprehension of 4th graders...

I guess I'm a little confused about your definition of "comprehension". Were they hired or not? It is comforting to know that in classic style, when you can't argue a point, you go straight for classy language. You guys are so predictable. What's next, storm off? Accuse me of RICO?

I think where AWA "was" actually happened to be a pretty sweet position; Able to buy a washed up, bankrupt legacy carrier for pennies on the dollar. If that's your idea of a criticism, I'll take it.

Stay classy, East pilots. :laugh:

 

[PuffDriver]

Pay is just a small part of the nightmare called LOA 93. Have you seen the work rules, vacation and forced 95 hour months. If a flight is canceled out East, hope a nice trip is in open time or there goes your pay! Seperate ops is not a solution for USAPA to avoid the NIC., but the WEST and the company will one day get to a joint contract with or without EAST participation, I'm betting on BK.

You need to go back and read it again. You are so far off base, it's pathetic.

 

[Crzipilot]

you see this thing called 9/11 happened. forced airlines into BK, etc. with this BK unions were forced into negotiating concessionary contracts. Part of this fall out was also lots of pilots were furloughed.

After the furloughs, and the contracts were being hammered out....some airlines had their bottom guys with 12+ years of seniority. company wants immediate cost relief. ALPA advisors figure that by giving relief in the range of year 1-8 would save the company X amount of dollars. Only problem here, is there wasn't anyone active on the seniority list in that year range. A few years later, recalls start. That is when the company started saving money on that vacation. They were not new hires, they were recalls.

Pre 9/11 AWA was a pretty sweet place???? You've been in the desert sun for too long. Post 9/11 AWA was about the only place hiring around 2002/03 I believe. And guys at that point for basically looking for any job they could. AWA happened to have someone, with gov't financing, who was able to take a short term advantage to the cut backs the majors had gone through........

 

[Crzipilot]

Nothing. The court overturned the case based on ripeness, not merit. They made no ruling on the merits of the case.
I don't see the connection between the grievance and the seniority list. I fully expect the company to win but just for the sake of discussion if they lost I'd expect them to go through bankruptcy again to mitigate it.

Not really sure either, just rumor mill stuff. As LOA 93 could come back as a win, but possible that it could be an answer of. Pilots right...Company wrong, now you two sit together and figure out how you want to right this, you have 90 days.

I.E. some have said, arbitrator can come back in favor of pilots, with no specific remedy, and tell the two parties to come to an agreeable remedy, or he will make a decision in 90 days. So in those 90 days, it would be kinda the pilots with a little bit of leverage as Parker crunches the numbers on those pay scales. Could be alot of horse trades happening.

Like I said though, just rumor mill stuff