US Airways MEC files lawsuit against AWA MEC

[regionaltard]

I don't understand. Wouldn't those guys have retired from the right seat without the merger?

So what's the difference now?

The difference is that they'll be retiring from an airline now instead of from Home Depot.

 

[Fast43]

I don't understand. Wouldn't those guys have retired from the right seat without the merger?

So what's the difference now?

At Last someone can see it clearly !!!

With the exception that without the merger they would not have survived. So there would have been no Attrition to "Enjoy" on the east side.

Playing the "If" game.

If AAA would have stood alone absent the merger. When an 88-90 hire would have been recalled he would have been recalled to the bottom!!! (as he will be now) Before the merger his "seniority" could only hold Junior bottom guy F/O after recall. (as he will now)

Instead they are INDIGNANT that when an 88-90 hire gets recalled, He can't be a Captain!!!

Another thing not being spelled out clearly is that all these East retirements are not from the Captain seat as they would like you to believe. (If an F/O retires NO ONE gets to upgrade)

Oh yeah then there is this widebody flying that they tell you everybody on earth salivates over!!!! Why is it then that recalled furloughed guys are filling these slots. Clearly they are highly prized by those on the east side.

Fast

 

[AutoBus]

At Last someone can see it clearly !!!

With the exception that without the merger they would not have survived. So there would have been no Attrition to "Enjoy" on the east side.

Playing the "If" game.

If AAA would have stood alone absent the merger. When an 88-90 hire would have been recalled he would have been recalled to the bottom!!! (as he will be now) Before the merger his "seniority" could only hold Junior bottom guy F/O after recall. (as he will now)

Instead they are INDIGNANT that when an 88-90 hire gets recalled, He can't be a Captain!!!

Another thing not being spelled out clearly is that all these East retirements are not from the Captain seat as they would like you to believe. (If an F/O retires NO ONE gets to upgrade)

Oh yeah then there is this widebody flying that they tell you everybody on earth salivates over!!!! Why is it then that recalled furloughed guys are filling these slots. Clearly they are highly prized by those on the east side.

Fast

Also with AGE 65 on the horizon this will reduce the Captain Retirements (East and West) for years to come. A fence would hurt the east as much as the west when you consider the possibility of further re-alignment of bases, hubs and flying. Add another merger into the mix and what do you have?

 

[OnTheDole]

Hi Auto -

There's still two things I can't find: 1) a West pilot who says he wanted this merger, and 2) a West pilot who doesn't mind a fence.

Hmmm....why is that?

I'll agree to a fence if...
- west gets ALL movement that was lost because of the reduction of west AC from this merger first
- west gets ALL movement from west AC not delivered because of this merger first
- after the first two, all new aircraft come to west side until it equals the new AC the east has recieved since merger announcement from then AC split 50/50
- only applies to upward movement, no fence protection from furlough
- I get to kick stephan in the nuts

Hows that sound? Now you've heard from a West pilot who didn't want this merger and will agree to a fence.

Puts everybody back to what they expected before the merger... West movement from retirements and stated growth and East movement from retirements.

(disclaimer... views expressed are strictly the views of onthedole and in no way reflect the views of any other AWA pilot, the AWA union or any one else for that matter)

 

[BigMotorToter]

I agree that ALPA merger policy has been manipulated. The UAL/AAA proposed merger is what precipitated the big change in policy. The UAL MEC knew that any inclusion of DOH in the policy would have put them at a disadvantage due to the extremely senior AAA group, so they worked hard to change the policy and remove any mention of DOH. Unfortunately, they were successful. It didn't end up helping the UAL guys since the merger never happened, but it still ended up screwing the AAA pilots in the end.

quote]

Where do these urban legends come from? DOH in the ALPA merger policy has been long gone for years. Way before the UAL/ USAir attempted merger.

 

[AutoBus]

I agree that ALPA merger policy has been manipulated. The UAL/AAA proposed merger is what precipitated the big change in policy. The UAL MEC knew that any inclusion of DOH in the policy would have put them at a disadvantage due to the extremely senior AAA group, so they worked hard to change the policy and remove any mention of DOH. Unfortunately, they were successful. It didn't end up helping the UAL guys since the merger never happened, but it still ended up screwing the AAA pilots in the end.

quote]

Where do these urban legends come from? DOH in the ALPA merger policy has been long gone for years. Way before the UAL/ USAir attempted merger.

The funny thing is that almost 10 years after the propsed UAL/AAA merger the junior guy at AAA is more or less the same guy. Says alot about AAA!

 

[airfogey]

I'll agree to a fence if...
- west gets ALL movement that was lost because of the reduction of west AC from this merger first
- west gets ALL movement from west AC not delivered because of this merger first
- after the first two, all new aircraft come to west side until it equals the new AC the east has recieved since merger announcement from then AC split 50/50
- only applies to upward movement, no fence protection from furlough
- I get to kick stephan in the nuts

Hows that sound? Now you've heard from a West pilot who didn't want this merger and will agree to a fence.

Puts everybody back to what they expected before the merger... West movement from retirements and stated growth and East movement from retirements.

(disclaimer... views expressed are strictly the views of onthedole and in no way reflect the views of any other AWA pilot, the AWA union or any one else for that matter)

I'm also another west pilot who didn't want this so called merger either. I will only agree with fences with the above restrictions --west has stagnated while Doogie has fiddled with east.--one thing that chaps my hide is the east claiming that west pilots should never be allowed in wide bodies since we did'nt have them and had no prospect of having them--excuse me do they not recall that we operated 747's in the early 90's. So since we are the only pilot group in the new USAIRWAYS that ever operated four engine heavy jets then any four engine equipment acquired in the future(ie A-340) should only be flown by West pilots--how do ya like them apples east.

Airfogey

 

[PCL_128]

TWA Dude writes:
No, I most certainly don't. The Policy states that Nicolau is the final decider. Disagreeing with his opinion doesn't mean Policy wasn't followed.

The arbitrator is bound by ALPA policy as stated in the Admin Manual. He's not supposed to have free reign to decide the intergration on whatever grounds he sees fit. He is required to issue a ruling based upon the limitations and requirements within the policy. The current merger policy prohibits a "windfall" to either group. The West obviously received a windfall with this award, so the policy was not followed.

No, I most certainly don't. Why do you even bother asking?

Because you've always been a pretty reasonable poster, and I thought there might be some possibility that you would look beyond your own situation and realize that the AAA pilots got hosed and the AWA pilots were virtually untouched.

I'll accept that only if you accept that anyone in the East who claims DOH/LOS wouldn't be an unfair advantage to them is also being dishonest.

I agree that demanding straight DOH with current merger policy in place was an unwise decision. Unfortunately, the East MEC was only following the direction of the membership, so I can't fault Captain Stephan and the MC for doing as the members demanded.

The disadvantaged AAA careers are a result of the company shrinking to almost half its size. You're misplacing blame. Why should our upgrades suffer unduly as a result of the merger? A fair integration shares the gains and pains.

Of course, but I don't think that there has been any "sharing" of the pains here. The junior AWA pilots have had their upgrades delayed minimally, while the East pilots have seen their upgrades disappear completely. Whereas they had nothing but old geezers about to retire in front of them before the new list, they now have hundreds of younger pilots in front of them that will get their upgrade slot.

 

[JT8D]

excuse me do they not recall that we operated 747's in the early 90's. So since we are the only pilot group in the new USAIRWAYS that ever operated four engine heavy jets then any four engine equipment acquired in the future(ie A-340) should only be flown by West pilots--how do ya like them apples east.

Airfogey

You're like the 3rd HP guy that has brought up the AWA 747 program.

Personally I don't think that is commonly viewed as a success story in the aviation industry...that may be just me ...I don't know.

Lets face it the biggest machine you guys could upgrade into was a 757 "ER" to Hawaii...nice...

Most of your routes you can see the destination out the front window when you get the gear stowed...

I have one of your 74's as my avatar...

 

[AutoBus]

The arbitrator is bound by ALPA policy as stated in the Admin Manual. He's not supposed to have free reign to decide the intergration on whatever grounds he sees fit. He is required to issue a ruling based upon the limitations and requirements within the policy. The current merger policy prohibits a "windfall" to either group. The West obviously received a windfall with this award, so the policy was not followed.



Because you've always been a pretty reasonable poster, and I thought there might be some possibility that you would look beyond your own situation and realize that the AAA pilots got hosed and the AWA pilots were virtually untouched.



I agree that demanding straight DOH with current merger policy in place was an unwise decision. Unfortunately, the East MEC was only following the direction of the membership, so I can't fault Captain Stephan and the MC for doing as the members demanded.



Of course, but I don't think that there has been any "sharing" of the pains here. The junior AWA pilots have had their upgrades delayed minimally, while the East pilots have seen their upgrades disappear completely. Whereas they had nothing but old geezers about to retire in front of them before the new list, they now have hundreds of younger pilots in front of them that will get their upgrade slot.

The only upgrade slots these East guys could reasonably expect is Assistant to the Assistant Manager at Home Depot. Give me a break they were out of airspeed, altitude and ideas. Exactly how many competing offers were made for what was left of USAir, NONE! not one! not even from the nut jobs with a dream and no money.

Be that as it may, the day the deal closed we were a new company. As far as the pilots are concerned DOH/LOS means nothing, it's your status that means everything, that's alpa merger policy. The award reflects that.

As far as a windfall, oh yes I'm enjoying my 5 to 6% reduction in relative standing (due to the widebodies) I have to convince myself of that everyday. Let's I would have EASILY upgraded already on our own, today I am still waiting..... So much for my windfall...

Why are the Westies less upset with the award than the Easties? Very simple! From the begining we were told what we could reasonably expect, the merger commitee educated us on ALPA merger policy and how it would work. We have had two years to adjust, it not a surprise.

The Easties on the otherhand have on had Stephan's Bu##Sh## and saber rattling, making uneducated promises he knew he could not keep. Any idiot that reads the basis tennets of the policy would understand what the outcome would be.

 

[PHXFLYR]

The arbitrator is bound by ALPA policy as stated in the Admin Manual. He's not supposed to have free reign to decide the intergration on whatever grounds he sees fit. He is required to issue a ruling based upon the limitations and requirements within the policy. The current merger policy prohibits a "windfall" to either group. The West obviously received a windfall with this award, so the policy was not followed.



Because you've always been a pretty reasonable poster, and I thought there might be some possibility that you would look beyond your own situation and realize that the AAA pilots got hosed and the AWA pilots were virtually untouched.



I agree that demanding straight DOH with current merger policy in place was an unwise decision. Unfortunately, the East MEC was only following the direction of the membership, so I can't fault Captain Stephan and the MC for doing as the members demanded.



Of course, but I don't think that there has been any "sharing" of the pains here. The junior AWA pilots have had their upgrades delayed minimally, while the East pilots have seen their upgrades disappear completely. Whereas they had nothing but old geezers about to retire in front of them before the new list, they now have hundreds of younger pilots in front of them that will get their upgrade slot.

Don't you have an NPA meeting to attend or something?



PHXFLYR

 

[TWA Dude]

The West obviously received a windfall with this award, so the policy was not followed.

I've avoided excessive back-and-forth on this before so there's no point in doing so here. You erroneously state your opinion as if it is fact. I'll simply pose it thus: who is the final authority as to what constitutes a windfall? Not you nor I nor even the EC. Answer: a mutually agreed to arbitrator. Reading the text, Nicolau certainly felt bound by ALPA Policy and felt he followed it. His opinion matters while yours and mine doesn't.

 

[vetrider]

The arbitrator is bound by ALPA policy as stated in the Admin Manual. He's not supposed to have free reign to decide the intergration on whatever grounds he sees fit. He is required to issue a ruling based upon the limitations and requirements within the policy. The current merger policy prohibits a "windfall" to either group. The West obviously received a windfall with this award, so the policy was not followed.]

Read a couple thousand pages of transcripts and the entire Nicolau decision, otherwise your just parroting a tired old line. Nicolau explains himself, plus with the transcripts you will have the background.

I get sick of these people parroting the fallacious "obvious" windfall.

 

[PCL_128]

You erroneously state your opinion as if it is fact.

No, I agree that it is open to interpretation. My opinion is only that: an opinion.

I'll simply pose it thus: who is the final authority as to what constitutes a windfall? Not you nor I nor even the EC. Answer: a mutually agreed to arbitrator.

That's also open to interpretation. One could argue that the EC, or even the BOD, could determine that the policy was not followed and void the award.

 

[weasel_lips]

I was just on the ALPA weboard reading posts from both sides about the merger.

One fact stuck out, the posts on the ALPA board are mostly polite and professional.

On flightinfo.com the posts are rude, venomous, and insulting.

On the ALPA board your REAL name is attached to the posting.

It is easy to write rude and insulting remarks about a group when you can hide behind an anonymous handle.

Funny how you guys talk all big and bad on here. Yet you don’t say a peep on the ALPA board where your name will show up.

(This not directed at the east or west side. Just a general observation....)

 

[regionaltard]

One could argue that the EC, or even the BOD, could determine that the policy was not followed and void the award.

Now there's a way to restore some credibility to the process. Can we get a do-over on the alter ego thing too?

It's arguable that the EC or BOD should have gotten involved and told the East to put down the DOH crack pipe but they didn't. Could the East have gotten a better deal? Sure they could have, but they needed to make their case before the fact. They bet the ranch, and they lost. You'd better believe that we'd be talking about windfalls had their absurd argument prevailed.

 

[xanderman]

The arbitrator is bound by ALPA policy as stated in the Admin Manual. He's not supposed to have free reign to decide the intergration on whatever grounds he sees fit. He is required to issue a ruling based upon the limitations and requirements within the policy. The current merger policy prohibits a "windfall" to either group. The West obviously received a windfall with this award, so the policy was not followed.

The ALPA Merger and Fragmentation Policy directs the
merger representatives to “carefully weigh all the equi-
ties inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the
merger representatives should attempt to match equities
to various methods of integration until a fair and equi-
table agreement is reached, keeping in mind the follow-
ing goals, in no particular order:
“a. Preserve jobs.
“b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the
other.
“c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of
living.
“d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
“e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.”


I have yet to read where it states that the arbitrator is "bound" by the merger policy. I believe this policy is more of a guide than some might think...

 

[erjdude]

PHOENIX—The following statement is from the union leaders of the America West unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l. (ALPA).
In a desperate move, the pilots of US Airways are attempting to overturn an arbitrated seniority award by suing their own union. All 60,000 pilots represented by the Air Line Pilots Association will now be forced to use their union dollars to defend this complaint brought by the disgruntled pilots at US Airways.
Over the past two years, the America West and US Airways pilot groups have strictly adhered to ALPA Merger Policy to determine a new combined seniority list, as a result of the merger of the two airlines. This process included negotiations, mediation and arbitration. The failure of both sides to negotiate a settlement resulted in an arbitrated award that is final and binding.
While the "east" pilots characterized the award as "wholesale destruction," no US Airways pilot lost their position, base or pay. Instead, the award slotted 517 US Airways pilots at the top of the new seniority list, protected their desired international flying and assured them access to all growth at the airline. Despite the fact that on the eve of the merger, the pilots of US Airways were in their second bankruptcy, had more than 1,500 pilots on furlough and were facing liquidation, they believe that they are entitled to a new seniority list that would place their pilots, even those that were laid off at the time of the merger, above all their peers at America West.
The US Airways pilots erroneously pride themselves on having more experience than their counterparts at America West without any regard for the diverse military, airline and corporate backgrounds of all America West pilots. This arrogant approach to seniority is an inaccurate representation of the professionalism and experience of thousands of pilots represented by ALPA. Additionally, this lawsuit is a giant step backwards for all US Airways pilots both "east" and "west." Instead of focusing their resources on contract negotiations with management to obtain better pay, work rules and retirement for their pilots, the leadership of the US Airways "east" pilots is spending limited resources to overturn an arbitrated award.
In the meantime, US Airways management continues to cash in on millions of dollars in savings by keeping their pilots on one of the lowest pay scales in the industry. All pilots of the new US Airways deserve better and it is unfortunate the pilot union leaders on the "east" prefer litigation rather than abiding by their own union policies already established governing seniority integration.
The America West unit of ALPA is based in Phoenix and represents over 1800 pilots. America West unit of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int'l.

 

[TWA Dude]

No, I agree that it is open to interpretation. My opinion is only that: an opinion.

Well then it's too bad the AAA MEC can't make that same admission. If they did, they wouldn't be demanding the EC void Nicolau Award or filing suit in court. The courts don't deal in opinions; they deal in law. Feeling one has been wronged isn't actionable. The lawsuit is just a rehash of the arguments Nicolau already ruled on. No court is going to revisit those arguments. This all boils down to exactly what I've said it does: the USAirwas pilots really don't like Nicolau's decision and think they can bully the EC and AWA MEC into concessions.

That's also open to interpretation. One could argue that the EC, or even the BOD, could determine that the policy was not followed and void the award.

I agree. In fact, the EC would be duty-bound to vacate the Award if ALPA Policy was violated. But Policy was followed and you don't agree with the result. I don't wish to sound insensitive but this is the risk in binding arbitration. Before Nic ruled I (along with many) was actually pretty nervous about how bad AWA was going to get screwed. Methinks the USA guys were feeling mostly confident. This is the partly the fault of their MEC for not giving them all the information (remember the transcripts!) and partly a false sense of entitlement (they owe us our careers back).

 

[bigtexpilot]

I'll agree to a fence if...
- west gets ALL movement that was lost because of the reduction of west AC from this merger first
- west gets ALL movement from west AC not delivered because of this merger first
- after the first two, all new aircraft come to west side until it equals the new AC the east has recieved since merger announcement from then AC split 50/50
- only applies to upward movement, no fence protection from furlough
- I get to kick stephan in the nuts

Hows that sound? Now you've heard from a West pilot who didn't want this merger and will agree to a fence.

Puts everybody back to what they expected before the merger... West movement from retirements and stated growth and East movement from retirements.

(disclaimer... views expressed are strictly the views of onthedole and in no way reflect the views of any other AWA pilot, the AWA union or any one else for that matter)

and...
- The East MEC recognizes publicly it was an aquisition by America West.