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US Air firing pilot who's gun discharged

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The facts are known to those that have a need to know. In other words, if you're not an FFDO or someone representing the pilot, then you don't have a need to know. No FOIA request will help you get the info, because information related to the FFDO program is considered SSI.

I agree with the other posters that the pilot did not deserve to be terminated. Unfortunately, uSAPa will not be much help for him.
 
ALPA, FFDOA, etc have been stating for a while that the carriage procedures are bound to end up in an accidental discharge someday. The procedures are faulty...could have happened to anybody. Combine those procedures with the new holster and there you go. Termination is obviously way overboard here
 
Be Afraid

GogglesPisano said:
Airline management teams have never warmed to the idea of armed pilots. They've always seen it as a liability issue and have assumed they'd be indemnified in the event of another terrorits attack.
Click to expand...
And....They are probably afraid what might happen to them if they push one just a little too far over the edge!:D
 
PositiveRate said:
I actually expressed no opinion. I asked a question. If you shoot a hole in a company aircraft, you're going to get to talk to HR. That meeting is where the value of ALPA is, but many assume they'll never find themselves in such a situation. From what I hear, there is pretty strict protocal for handling the weapon in flight and maybe things weren't up to SOPs at the time of the 'incident'. I will, however, call BS that ALPA denied to defend him. I'd like to see proof on that as I doubt it was the case.

If you get sick, hurt or diagnosed, have something going on at home that makes you unfit to fly, get a number from ATC, have a runway incursion, etc etc....there were immediate avenues for help. We're on our own now.
Click to expand...


We certainly are my friend. We certainly are .....And that's what 2723 blithering idiots back east fail to realize and one of the things the average ALPA member seems to forget. Your ALPA dues gives you access to services you hope you never have to use in your career for what essentially is a flat rate (ie your monthly dues) I shudder to think what all this protection would cost "al la carte" if you had to purchase it on your own, if it can be purchased at all. And I have grave doubts about USAPA's claim that they will be able to deliver any of them in a "seamless" fashion as they claim....


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
Why couldn't they just kick him out of the FFDO program and let him keep his job?

By the way, guns don't go off "accidentally" all by themselves. They go off when careless people "accidentally" keep a round in the chamber, "accidentally" take the safety off and "accidentally"' pull the trigger.

Still, taking away the livelihood of a 55-year-old pilot who, for all we know, has never had a problem with his PRIMARY job is just ridiculous.
 
SaturnPilot said:
ALPA, FFDOA, etc have been stating for a while that the carriage procedures are bound to end up in an accidental discharge someday. The procedures are faulty...could have happened to anybody. Combine those procedures with the new holster and there you go. Termination is obviously way overboard here
Click to expand...


Exactly!

1. Misfires happen all the time and there are not many who have handled a gun that have not had a misfire. It happens on the ranges and it happens on the streets and in your lifetime, if you handle a gun, you have a good chance of having one. The mounting clasp is close to the seatbelt which is easily caught. Next time you fly with an FFDO ask him about wearing his gun and the seatbelt and how easy it is to get caught on it.

It would be nice to show the statistics of a police officer and misfires to pilots. I think you would see we are not out of line.
 
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Is there a better gun that could have been selected as the FFDO weapon that might have had the safety features that would have prevented this recent incident from occuring ?


PHXFLYR:cool:
 
Time for all of the FFDO's to organize a day to leave their weapons home in protest...(kidding!):D

Could the fact that is was reported to have happened at 8,000ft - under sterile cockpit - be relevant? One would think any handling of the weapon would be best done prior to sterile cockpit or on the ground.

There obviously is a lot more to this story that we think.

:uzi::eek:
 
spitfire1940 said:
Why couldn't they just kick him out of the FFDO program and let him keep his job?

By the way, guns don't go off "accidentally" all by themselves. They go off when careless people "accidentally" keep a round in the chamber, "accidentally" take the safety off and "accidentally"' pull the trigger.

Still, taking away the livelihood of a 55-year-old pilot who, for all we know, has never had a problem with his PRIMARY job is just ridiculous.
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FYI,

Not an FFDO, but do know that SOP requires the firearm to always be kept with a live round in the chamber; and the gun has the LEM, meaning it does NOT have a 'safety'

That said, 'accidents' do happen; different kinds of accidents happen to everyone at some point, Not a reason to fire someone.

For what its worth.

DA
 
The fact of the matter is that the guy screwed up. He did not follow SOP and he shot a hole in the side of the airplane. Its not the holster, or the lock, or the SOP's fault. It's his and his alone. I'm not saying he should be fired, I'm just tired of everyone trying to lay blame on everything except the pilot. If you follow the SOP's, this will not happen.

It sucks however that his company and ALPA and shortly USAPA are all throwing him under the bus. He should be thrown out of the FFDO program I feel, but not fired.
 
Gentlemen,

If you're thinking of posting information in a "SOP says..." format, please consider not posting it. SSI should actually mean something.

Yes, no doubt, the guy in question screwed up. Final responsibility lies with him; it's a structure I'm sure we're all familiar with.

However, like any accident, there we're contributing factors. These factors need to be identified (privately, please) and mitigated to help prevent a similiar situation from occurring again. Also, a process we're all familiar with.
 
spitfire1940 said:
Still, taking away the livelihood of a 55-year-old pilot who, for all we know, has never had a problem with his PRIMARY job is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing his management felt that shooting a hole through one of their airplanes while flying it constitutes a "...problem with his PRIMARY job..."

Just a guess...
 
PHXFLYR said:
...Your ALPA dues gives you access to services...
Click to expand...
Yes, yes, we know..."Access to services which
MIGHT get your case resolved before you retire."

Disclaimer: ALPA will not represent you unless it's a high profile case.

Next!
 
Guys,

No law enforcement agency or professional can live by the claim that "accidents happen". That is a dangerous state of mind. Proper training is required to avoid accidents. I personally think that the whole program should be a little more expanded to assure safety. Anybody that ACTUALLY knows how to handle guns, avoids accidents at any cost. So, blame it on the pilot and the training standards. Not on the gun or the airline.
I personally do not see FFDOs as heroes. They do it because they like it. For some, is the glamor of the training and the badge, for others just to avoid the ongoing, unhealthy x-ray examination. Nobody that I know does it because of the romantic reasons that ring with patriotism... (some are just cowboys looking for a chance to prove it!)
It is voluntary and not required. I like it a lot, and can't wait for my vacation to come so I can spend it in NM. But I know that I'll be taking a big responsibility and the risk of screwing up.
The airline has the right to fire this guy. I don't think we can question that. The union has the responsibility of defending the guy but not of believing in him. Weapons seldom go off by themselves and I don't think this was the case anyways...
He screwed up and became a huge safety hazard.
He is obviously not ready to have a gun and showed poor decision making which endangered passengers and possibly public on the ground. This is clearly grounds for dismissal. Raise the bar guys, don't lower it to accommodate mediocrity!

Just my 2 cents.

Ready for the firing squad.
:cool:
 
Imagine if a guy took the fire ax out of it's bulkhead mount and "accidentally" swung it into the side of the airplane, piercing it. Stupid, right?

That's what this guy did. Only with a gun. His actions are an embarrassment to all FFDOs. The fact he got fired for it and not just time off w/o pay and kicked out of the FFDO program make me ashamed to work for USAir.

Don't worry, I'm sure his union will get his job back...oh wait. Never mind.
 
This is the perfect storm of circumstances. This is a huge problem with the FFDO program. As a police officer I had a union who would fight for my best interests as a police officer who carries a gun. As an FFDO nobody from the GOV is stepping up to back this guy. The company is obviously against the program. The union has its own problem and really it is out of the scope of their charter anyway. The FFDO program is a government program and they should have government representation/laws similar to federal agents, AND NOTHING LESS. Until this happens the program is a danger to the companies (lawsuits), unions (trying to defend a program they have no control over) and the pilots who volunteer (personally vulnerable legally and financially).
 
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looks like the "its all BS, its not his fault, he should not be fired mantra" has died down.

1. A gun does not go off unless dropped with severe force, in such a manner that the bullet is hit perfectly to fire it.

2. Absent the above, the trigger must be pulled to fire a round.
 
If you follow SOP to the letter, you won't have an "accidental" discharge. Simple as that...

As for firing the guy, well.... we'll see if USAPA has any clout. Nevermind, I know the answer to that.
 
PMFJI...........The FFDO was not following SOP's. How do I know.......I'm an FFDO

The accidental discharge happened at approx, 8,000 ft. While in the sterile environment, the weapon should have,

1. Been stowed before reaching 10,000 ft.,

2. Been in holster on strong side, stowed before opening flight deck door.

3. Not been on console next to control stick (Airbus) where weapon is not secured on FFDO's strong side.

It was said that the weapon was loose on the console next to the control stick, not secured on FFDO's belt, which is required by FAM policy, therefore allowing an accidental discharge to happen by bypassing required SOP's to lock the weapon only while taking weapon off belt.

Yes.........FFDO F' up. Do I think he should be fired for that....NO!!!

However.......he was probably a USAPA proponent, and now wishes he had ALPA to back him up.

This is only the beginning to USAPA's demise.
 
Everyone is badgering the pilot for "pulling the trigger". Here is the problem and the obscuring of the design.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bqOLjEli6yY

There is no safety on the weapon mandated to be carried, and it is mandatory to keep it loaded for use.

I agree that he shouldn't have been stowing the weapon while in flight, but it isn't worth firing the guy over. Enjoy the vid, it's worth a quick view.
 
satpak77 said:
1. A gun does not go off unless dropped with severe force, in such a manner that the bullet is hit perfectly to fire it.

2. Absent the above, the trigger must be pulled to fire a round.
Click to expand...

The trigger must be pulled to fire a round. You could throw the H&K USP off of a building -- unless the trigger is pulled as hit hits the ground, it won't fire.
 
JumpersAway said:
Everyone is badgering the pilot for "pulling the trigger". Here is the problem and the obscuring of the design.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bqOLjEli6yY

There is no safety on the weapon mandated to be carried, and it is mandatory to keep it loaded for use.

I agree that he shouldn't have been stowing the weapon while in flight, but it isn't worth firing the guy over. Enjoy the vid, it's worth a quick view.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised the TSA hasn't pulled that video.

In any case, once again, even if stowing the weapon during flight, if he stuck to the SOP - it wouldn't have discharged. Plain and simple. This guy tried to reinvent the wheel and didn't do as he was trained - BANG!

Do I think he should have been fired? No way. Unfortunately for him, ALPA is off the property so getting his job back is now gonna be that much harder with USAPA.
 
Bavarian Chef said:
The trigger must be pulled to fire a round. You could throw the H&K USP off of a building -- unless the trigger is pulled as hit hits the ground, it won't fire.
Click to expand...

Ok, good. I was speaking towards the generally-not-informed crowd about most handguns, revolvers, etc.
 
Secret Squirrel said:
This is the perfect storm of circumstances. This is a huge problem with the FFDO program. As a police officer I had a union who would fight for my best interests as a police officer who carries a gun. As an FFDO nobody from the GOV is stepping up to back this guy. The company is obviously against the program. The union has its own problem and really it is out of the scope of their charter anyway. The FFDO program is a government program and they should have government representation/laws similar to federal agents, AND NOTHING LESS. Until this happens the program is a danger to the companies (lawsuits), unions (trying to defend a program they have no control over) and the pilots who volunteer (personally vulnerable legally and financially).
Click to expand...


Man I couldn't agree more. It's criminal. The gov. lawyers should be all over this, but pathetically, all I'm hearing is the sound of a steam roller heading his way!
 
satpak77 said:
Ok, good. I was speaking towards the generally-not-informed crowd about most handguns, revolvers, etc.
Click to expand...

And I was talking specifically about the LEM model of the H & K USP .40 -- but then I didn't read the first two pages of this thread, maybe it was covered already.

The "bolts just blew" defense doesn't work so well with this particular handgun. Should he be fired over it -- dunno.
 
Bavarian Chef said:
And I was talking specifically about the LEM model of the H & K USP .40 -- but then I didn't read the first two pages of this thread, maybe it was covered already.

The "bolts just blew" defense doesn't work so well with this particular handgun. Should he be fired over it -- dunno.
Click to expand...

Don't know either....maybe some damaging info was pulled from the CVR (blahblahblahblahBAM....WTFWT?)

Following the SOP will keep you out of trouble.
 

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