US Air 190's

[onthestreet]

As far as the 190's, RP/CHQ/S5 will probably have the orders in by the end of the month- so it will be considered an "existing" a/c order prior to September which would qualify the aircraft to be flown for USAirways/AmericaWest.

I hate to burst any bubbles, but no one but Jetblue is going to taking deliveries of any 190's until two years from Oct. Give EMB a call and ask em. It's part of the deak JB struck with EMB.

 

[NDM]

I hear what you are saying, but AW contract saying "existing orders" not deliveries.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Advance it a few years and now it wasn't the turboprop being spun off- it was "regional jets" and ALPA ONCE AGAIN took higher wages in exchange of letting "Mainline" contract out to Regional Airlines. Ask the USAirways guys if they remember the F27, or the BOAC 111, the little Fokker or the 146's. Those aircraft were not taken away from them, they adjusted their scope so those type of aircraft could be flown by contract carriers. They got that in exchange for parity + 1%. It was a darn good exchange at a time when the Majors were growing.

A few corrections:

None of the airplanes you listed ever flew at a regional under USAirs name. The Bac 111 (BOAC was an airline in England) flew with mainline until the 737's came along and retired it, the F27 had a brief run with mainline in the early 70's, again retired without ever flying regional, the 146's were picked up in the PSA merger, retired pretty quick, not flown at the regionals, the f-28 never flew at the regionals, parked shortly after the Piedmont merger, The f-100 stayed in service until the RJ's replaced it after 9-11.

Parity + 1% was opposed by ALPA. They never wanted it, was forced upon them by Wolf in 99 and 2000. During that time Wolf threatened to put the RJ on the mainline if ALPA would not allow him to put them at MESA......ALPA said fine, lets work up a payscale and bring them on.......Wolf did not want that and dropped the threat. Why? Because he knew that Mesa would fly those 70 RJ's for dirt bag wages.

Allegheny did start the problem though in the 70's (With Eastern Airlines)

The only true way to fix the problem is to disallow any flying under another airlines name, and mainline scope alone can no longer do that....it is too far gone, if it is to ever be corrected, both Mainline and Regional pilots will have to work together and refuse to accept anymore "larger" RJ's and refuse to accept substandard wages for the airplanes.

The only way to really fix the problem is to shut down the entire country until everyone who flies a particular paintjob is on one list.......and that will never happen since there are too many pilots willing to work for peanuts.

 

[sleddriver77]

As far as the 190's, RP/CHQ/S5 will probably have the orders in by the end of the month- so it will be considered an "existing" a/c order prior to September which would qualify the aircraft to be flown for USAirways/AmericaWest.

I believe RAH has actually HAD both firm orders and options for the 190 for some time now... If the airplanes were not needed by RAH when the slot rolled around, the slot could surely be sold to SOMEBODY. (JetBlue?)

 

[Dodge]

As far as NWA and the Avro go....I think there were plans on getting even more of the Avro's but the NWA pilots quickly and rightly went on strike and stopped the bleeding at just 36 aircraft limited to 69 seats. But they are really comfortable 69 seats, especially the first 16 of them.

 

[OldManPilot]

AWA current contract does not allow E-190 or Bombardier C series aircraft at other than mainline. The CRJ900's were allowed in a one time deal and no more of them are allowed either. Some of you regional guys just want bigger and bigger planes only problem the wages suck and that is 1 less mainline job available. If you love the sub standard wages and work rules keep lowering the bar pretty soon taxi drivers will make more than us if they don't already.

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

 

[OldManPilot]

AWA current contract does not allow E-190 or Bombardier C series aircraft at other than mainline. The CRJ900's were allowed in a one time deal and no more of them are allowed either. Some of you regional guys just want bigger and bigger planes only problem the wages suck and that is 1 less mainline job available. If you love the sub standard wages and work rules keep lowering the bar pretty soon taxi drivers will make more than us if they don't already.

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

That my friends is where the anger should be pointed....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

That my friends is where the anger should be pointed....

My how times have changed, about 4 years ago I was getting blasted by regional guys about my views on the RJ and how they should not be allowed to go to the regionals.............4 years later, after the regional guys are getting hosed and outsourced to other regional guys just like the mainlines were then .........somehow the mainliners are still the bad guys!

USAir 's MEC did try to keep the RJ in check, however they were cussed at by every U express carrier pilot and mgmt. and U was losing a dumptruck load of money every quarter while trying to keep pilots on the property and hold off the outsourcing wave.

U MEC would have flown the RJ for F-28 rates no problem......even still had the scale in the contract at the time, problem is that Mesa and the rest were willing to fly the things for 40k a year for the left seat, so the MEC was fighting a losing battle, especially considering how many RJ's DAL, AA, and United MEC's were allowing to go to the lowest bidder. The result was inevitable.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

He was talking about the Nord program. After the Mohawk merger the Nords were ultimately outsourced.

And as for Oldmanpilot... what he's REALLY saying is "If you dont want us to HAVE the E190, don't outsourcing it. Otherwise shut up and let me enjoy my big shiny airplane!"

 

[Crzipilot]

Kerosene Snorter,

It's kinds useless, you see, nobody really wants to see the past for what it is....and loves to twist things in their favor. As far as I know, your rehash is right on target. And your solution to the whole country being stopped, well that is the solution but we have to get a union first before we can get the solution done. Speaking of unions, I am actually ashamed that about 80% of the new kids I fly with have very little knowledge of the aviation history and where we are today. I have YET, YET to have an f/o under 30 be able to tell me who Frank Lorenzo is. they look at me with a blank stare, and are like...uhmmm...who's he?? Capt. or FO??? help us

 

[LearLove]

"the F27 had a brief run with mainline in the early 70's, again retired without ever flying regional"

Some of US Air's F-27s went to Suburban and flew as Allegheny Commuter.

 

[NDM]

Frankie "Fang-Toothe" Lorenzo ala Continental Airlines.

Capt. Regional Age 28.

 

[arthompson]

Frank controlled several companies, only one of which was CAL. The Texas Air Corporation was a monster company.

On the subject of AWAC, AWAC is considered a National Carrier, most of AWAC's 146's were brought on as new deliveries before AWAC was UAX, others joined the company later in markets where they needed higher capacity. The cap was originally 25 airplanes over 50 seats but the company and UAL allowed the number to dwindle.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

"the F27 had a brief run with mainline in the early 70's, again retired without ever flying regional"

Some of US Air's F-27s went to Suburban and flew as Allegheny Commuter.

Forgot about those, but no mainline pilot was displaced or outsourced by the move. At the time the airline was growing rapidly and it was slipped by the union.

Even then there was quite the battle about letting any flying go outside, but back then the commuters were Beech 99's and the like and nobody ever dreamed of anything called an RJ. That was the first mistake as we have seen.

The problem with the current crop is the inability to learn from the past. 30 years ago our predecessors screwed up and the same mistakes are being made now.

Even recent history (1998-2002) is lost to most of the express pilots, I cannot count how many regional guys think that U MEC wanted Parity +1 and traded RJ's for it......Nothing is farther from the truth. U's MEC fought tooth and nail to keep the RJ out of their paint job...unless it was flown by U pilots. Until 2000 there were only around 20 RJ's flying in USAir colors, and at the time the U MEC was the evil "Dad's" trying to keep Jr.(express) down. Now the same crowd that was pissed off about not getting to fly a shiney jet for peanuts has discovered that they are indeed flying for peanuts and that a shiney jet doesn't mean squat without the QOL and payscale to go with it. Only problem is there are darn few mainlines left that are worth a crap, and even fewer that are hiring......mostly due to the fact that the RJ is flying the routes that the 73's and 9's were running just 5 years ago.

Interesting side note, U's 737 pilots are now flying for what the F-28 pilots did before the RJ infestation. Getting the RJ's back on the mainlines is the only solution, I just do not see how it will ever happen.

Starving RJ pilot is now a career, and well paid mainline pilot is a thing of the past. I can see the CEO's laughing all the way to the bank while the pilots hit the food stamp line.

 

[FreedomAList]

AWA current contract does not allow E-190 or Bombardier C series aircraft at other than mainline. The CRJ900's were allowed in a one time deal and no more of them are allowed either. Some of you regional guys just want bigger and bigger planes only problem the wages suck and that is 1 less mainline job available. If you love the sub standard wages and work rules keep lowering the bar pretty soon taxi drivers will make more than us if they don't already.

My understanding is the AWA contract allows Mesa to fly a certain number of 900's based on total fleet size of AWA, which means it was effectively capped at Mesa's current inventory.

However, AWA just merged, and even though the combinded entity is parking 100 a/c, the new company will have ALOT more jets . . . and therefore, Mesa could fly quite a few more 900s. Just rumors now, but either 18 CRJ 900's will move from PHX east, or an ADDITIONAL 19 900's will be purchased to be flown out east.

For as long as it lasts, anway. I give the merged company 2 years before they're bankrupt again, and 5 before they go bye-bye forever. This is of course the regoinals fault because we fly the planes too cheaply.

 

[surfnfly]

WHEN WILL YOU GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL... MANAGMENT MAKES THE CALL ON WHAT EQUIPMENT IS FLOWN...... NOT THE PILOTS!!!

What we need it to find away to stop this stupid name calling and put the blame where it belongs!!!!!!

MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONALS... can you say that along with me please..... MAINLINE PILOTS SELLING OUT THEIR FLYING TO THE REGIONAL..

That my friends is where the anger should be pointed....

Quit trying to blame mainline guys as an excuse to this downward spiral of our profession. Don't accept anything less than mainline wages to fly an e jet. Most of the regional guys still think it is only a stepping stone to the majors. Gee let me on the 170/190 then I can be more competitive for jetblue. Wake up folks the regionals may be the end of the line for alot of you. Take a stand and demand better wages. DAL did it when they got 777's. The aircraft stayed parked until they got the 300+/hr rate they wanted. If your management wants 170 or larger don't fly them until you get the pay you deserve. Let's try to pull this profession out of the nosedive it's in .

 

[hoover]

Unfortunatly you are the ones that will suffer an entire career of crap wages because of the RJ. Commuters for crap wages was a stepping stone, Regionals for crap wages is now a career....especially if 190 sized airplanes operate as "RJ's"

Crap wages? Since when did $110K a year become crap wages? That is what a top 146 driver at AWAC is earning.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

understanding is the AWA contract allows Mesa to fly a certain number of 900's based on total fleet size of AWA, which means it was effectively capped at Mesa's current inventory.

However, AWA just merged, and even though the combinded entity is parking 100 a/c, the new company will have ALOT more jets . . . and therefore, Mesa could fly quite a few more 900s. Just rumors now, but either 18 CRJ 900's will move from PHX east, or an ADDITIONAL 19 900's will be purchased to be flown out east.

For as long as it lasts, anway. I give the merged company 2 years before they're bankrupt again, and 5 before they go bye-bye forever. This is of course the regoinals fault because we fly the planes too cheaply.

This is true, but as a consequence of the merger, we all will re-enter section 6 negotiations (straight from the MEC). Parker and Mac both want to ensure a positive attitude and the Union is keen on keeping the 170's and 190's in Mainline while not giving anymore 900 flying up. So, get ready. Hopefully this will mean more mainline jobs and not more outsourcing.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Also, as for being gone completely in 5 years, if we go so do you. So, maybe we should all hope for the best.

 

[Beaver_Liquors]

<<<<<<<

Crap wages? Since when did $110K a year become crap wages? That is what a top 146 driver at AWAC is earning.

>>>>>

And your prowd of that, it takes you twenty years to get there, thats another thing that the regionals have really gotten bad at, it takes 20 years to top out of the pay scales, a 12 year 146 guy gets $88/hr. Thats pathetic for a 100 seat airplane as a captain. Yeah, I know we get duty rigs,trip rigs, blah blah blah. Our problem has been said before, we are in the mentality that its a regional and that we cant get paid what we should. I know its hard these days with the preditory contracts out there, everyone willing to stab each other in the backs. Thats ALPA national's fault for not being a real union and just being a bunch of lawyers that tell you what not to do instead of pulling us all together.

bl