Ups Pilots Blame Concessionary Capt Rates On Fedex Proposal

[Flybwoy]

THere is talk on the IPA B&G that the reason for our TA capt rates are so low is because FED EX is only asking for $217/hr in their proposal. Any Fed Ex pilots care to comment? Or is there a trigger in your pay rates that inflates that # 40% or higher? Any Fed Ex pilots care to comment?

 

[capt_zman]

I don't remember us proposing any set rates. Also, if you don't like the rates, vote the TA down and negotiate better ones.

 

[GoABX]

Now does this pass the logic test?

How would UPS mgt know what the FDX pilots are proposing? If the rates were low the IPA isn't going to tell UPS mgt (not that they'd know either). FDX managment isn't going to tell UPS mgt, because if UPS finishes first then it increases the cost to FDX.

ABX was probably used as a minimum threshold. We had the highest hourly rates, but we are paid 20% less than your old contracts because our guarantee is only 65 hours.

Both unions need to go BIG. The job for us and Astar is convincing management we know we are part of a worldwide express operator and not a Kitty Hawk, Fine Air, Burlington, etc. like they are trying to convince us of.

 

[HalinTexas]

Hold the line. No, raise it! Keep those pay rates up. Us lowly "retard revenue unit" haulers need something to aspire to.

 

[LivinDaDream]

Someone is misinformed. $217 was the last offer from mgmnt that was NOT accepted. It was something like 217/223/229/236 over the term. It falls short of our goal. Our goals have been openly discussed so I am not sure why misinformation is being put out.

This is YOUR contract accept it or reject it. This type of finger pointing doesn't help anyone's cause.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Both unions need to go BIG. The job for us and Astar is convincing management we know we are part of a worldwide express operator and not a Kitty Hawk, Fine Air, Burlington, etc. like they are trying to convince us of.

I beg to differ. I believe the job for you and ASTAR is convincing the FAA and the Department of Labor that you're an integral part of a "worldwide express company" and not a loose band of unrelated ACMI carriers.

If not for Alan McArtor's insistance back in the mid-80's that UPS own and operate it's own airline, it would still be structured as it was prior to that time...as a "virtual" or "paper airline" operated almost exclusively by ACMI carriers.

And if UPS were doing it, I can almost guarantee you that FedEX would be forced to do it as well...especially since ALPA came onto the property a few years ago.

I'm still not sure why FedEx and UPS forced DHL to divest themselves of their airline operations, but I think it's a move that will eventually haunt both their management and the line pilots of all 3 companies.

Where's Alan McArtor now that we need him?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Someone please explain to me how a $33 an hour raise is "concessionary".

I don't have a problem with trying to get as much as you can (and what the company can sustain to give you for the long term), but to call our rates concessionary is just stupid.

 

[boost]

Actually the FDX ALPA put out a document called Final Table Positions and Supporting Documents that is still readily available on the members only section of the alpa website. The ALPA payrate proposal included retro pay, an 8% raise on signing and 4% annually. This would put the WB Capt rates at
DOS 222.74, +1 231.65, +2 240.91, +3 250.55. There is also an extension option which would put it at 265.58 at +4 and 2% higher after +2. The A380 rates are different and higher. Still this doc was put out in October of last year! I am sure the current ALPA position compensates for 1 more year of cost of living plus the companies even greater profits at almost 2 billion a year. We are now 780 days without a contract.
I know that I would really like to see the UPS pilots get the good contract they deserve but to just look at payrates and not the entire contract is pointless. What are the trip and duty rigs? How much is health care, whats the retirement. As I have said before, 150 bucks an hour is a great rate at a trip rig of 10 hours per day!! The bottom line is UPS will get what your negotiation committee as negotiatied. It is a complete package with new benefits and new compromises unique to your company and your contract. Although we are the closest operation to UPS is it is still different so don't blame us for your rates!
TA's are never easy to vote on. The company is aiming for 51% of you guys liking it enough to pass it. All I am saying is that look at the whole package, not just the hourly pay rates that always take center stage. Good luck to you guys.

 

[Green]

with the kind of profits you guys are making you should be getting UAL 2000 rates or DAL 2001. Widebody Captains 340/hr and widebody Fo's 220/hr.....

 

[capt. megadeth]

with the kind of profits you guys are making you should be getting UAL 2000 rates or DAL 2001. Widebody Captains 340/hr and widebody Fo's 220/hr.....

Uh, ya....ok

Get something ridiculous and then give back half a few years later. No thanks.

 

[lifeguard]

Uh, ya....ok

Get something ridiculous and then give back half a few years later. No thanks.

AMEN!!!

 

[SNIZ]

Correct Rates

Boost's numbers are correct. I was at the union hub meeting last week and that aligns almost exactly with what our union president said were our current table positions.

 

[AlbieF15]

Gee Sniz, did you tell them about the time you, me, and all the FDX F-15 guys got together and said..."hey...how we can we screw over those UPS guys?"..

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Now does this pass the logic test?

How would UPS mgt know what the FDX pilots are proposing? If the rates were low the IPA isn't going to tell UPS mgt (not that they'd know either). FDX managment isn't going to tell UPS mgt, because if UPS finishes first then it increases the cost to FDX.

ABX was probably used as a minimum threshold. We had the highest hourly rates, but we are paid 20% less than your old contracts because our guarantee is only 65 hours.

Both unions need to go BIG. The job for us and Astar is convincing management we know we are part of a worldwide express operator and not a Kitty Hawk, Fine Air, Burlington, etc. like they are trying to convince us of.

It passes the logic test because the NMB is overseeing the negotiations at both UPS and FedEx. WHen our EB asked for XX dollars and the FedEx retirement the mediatior said "if you want the FDX retirement, then why don't you ask for FDX payrates", which were substantially lower than what UPS mgt was preparing to pay. We were days away from a TA last Dec with top Capt pay over 250 when FDX ALPA's lowball offer became known to the NMB.

It is stupid to point fingers. I am thrilled to be making over 100K my second year with this TA.

 

[Green]

Uh, ya....ok

Get something ridiculous and then give back half a few years later. No thanks.

whats ridiculous about those rates????? If SWA can be profitable and pay their captains 190/hr to fly a 737 why can't FedEx/UPS/Ual/DAl/etc pay $300+ to fly an aircraft which carries more than twice the pax/cargo and usually at premium fares (international)? Somebody please answer that question.

I think we are often our own worst enemies. Who says you have to give it back Capt Megadeth? The cargo industry does not suffer the same woes that the pax carriers deal with. You should be asking for more than Ual/dal had based on your massive profitability and market dominance. My .02. Obviously most don't aggree...

 

[Sluggo_63]

The cargo industry does not suffer the same woes that the pax carriers deal with.

No, we suffer different woes.

What if China decides it has had enough of Taiwan and the "two China" idea,lobs a couple of misslies and the US embargos goods to/from China?

What if India and Pakistan decide to go at it?

How about another SARS outbreak and no cargo flights to/from China?

What if Congress decides that every package on a cargo airplane needs to be x-rayed?

There's some stuff to worry about, maybe not the same stuff, but cargo isn't invincible.

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

The paradigm that pilot wages should directly correlate to net income of the company is ridiculous. It works both ways; when the company loses money we should not be giving up pay and just because UPS makes billions does not mean we deserve a half million a year.

What we do is not that irreplacable. The military can train a kid to be an aircraft commander of a C-17/KC-10/C-5 with less than 1000 hours total flight time. We deserve a piece of the pie, don't get me wrong. But what is the difference between us and a UPS truck driver demanding 200k a year just because the company is making profits?

How much does a Capt need? This TA will deliver $220/year. I can't imagine what I'd spend it on and I have a big family, new house, and nice cars. Bitching about the scheduling rules or retirement in the TA I can understand. But how can anyone keep a straight face and call our proposed pay raise pathetic!!??

 

[GuppyKiller]

I'll keep a staight face for you Lil J. Your contract and pay rates are pathetic.

 

[pipejockey]

What I'd like to know about is that pathetic 1st year pay of 27 an hour. How much would it really cost the company to raise that to a minimum of 50 an hour where it should be? Except for the military pilots, which seem to make up 80% of the new hires at FedEx and UPS anyway, the rest of us have suffered through the abhorrent pay of the small 135 operators, or worse yet, the regional airlines. Anyone with the experience to get a job at this level should be paid a living wage.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What I'd like to know about is that pathetic 1st year pay of 27 an hour. How much would it really cost the company to raise that to a minimum of 50 an hour where it should be? Except for the military pilots, which seem to make up 80% of the new hires at FedEx and UPS anyway, the rest of us have suffered through the abhorrent pay of the small 135 operators, or worse yet, the regional airlines. Anyone with the experience to get a job at this level should be paid a living wage.

I agree. However, UPS's view is that they have more than enough willing applicants to come and work for that little. I do think the first year pay is pathetic and even if the TA passes, $33/hr is pathetic too although a lot of us can't really say anything.....we went to work there for $26K. In my perfect little world a company like UPS would say "Well, we have more than enough willing to come for $26K but heck, we don't want you all eating Ramen noodles your first year, so we'll give you $50K". Unfortunately it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Flybwoy]

It passes the logic test because the NMB is overseeing the negotiations at both UPS and FedEx. WHen our EB asked for XX dollars and the FedEx retirement the mediatior said "if you want the FDX retirement, then why don't you ask for FDX payrates", which were substantially lower than what UPS mgt was preparing to pay. We were days away from a TA last Dec with top Capt pay over 250 when FDX ALPA's lowball offer became known to the NMB.

It is stupid to point fingers. I am thrilled to be making over 100K my second year with this TA.

Thats because your a loser who really isn't qualified to be working at UPS so $100k your second year sounds great to a shmuck like yourself. Thats why your ass was in the pool so long. I cant wait to find out who you are. I know your in either the first or the second July05 class. I'll find out who you are soon enough you selfish, ignorant bastard!!!

 

[Flybwoy]

Someone please explain to me how a $33 an hour raise is "concessionary".

I don't have a problem with trying to get as much as you can (and what the company can sustain to give you for the long term), but to call our rates concessionary is just stupid.

You my friend need a lesson in finance. These rates don't even keep up with inflation. If you work for UPS and have attended a road show you would know this. Get informed!!

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

Flybwoy,
My biggest worry is that the latest 300 new hires are ging to vote yes because most of them are FO's and they stand to get $40,000 in "Bonus" just for being on the property for 1 year. The other side of the coin is that these pilots are still in awe that they have the potential to make $100,000 a year, for year 2 pay of the proposed TA. Coming from where most of them did, that alot of money, and heII, "their just happy to be here"
What they dont understand is that UPS specifically did this to "Buy" their vote. Might seem crazy, but after they have a few years here on the new RES system or get shuttled out to ANC as their new domicile, or allowing the company the leverage that this new TA does as far as staffing and their upgrade will be 15 years + in the future, they might get a clue as to their mistake of voting yes. UPS is smiling to their faces and offering them in one hand, 40 grand, but in the other hand behind UPS's back is a knife that UPS is planning to stab them in the back with as soon as they sign yes to this TA... You can talk to these guys (and girls) as long as you want, but very few of them will listen...
I'm not saying that there are not good things in this contract, there are, but realize that there is alot of bad stuff as well and most the bad stuff (that the union is not talking about) greatly effects Jr, FO's the most. We can decide our own future here, but you have to willing to take a chance. 40 Grand is nothing to me when I think of the overall terms of this contract. I am willing to sacrafice that 40G to get a better contract for the long term.
The 98 contract went for the quick money and basically blinded everyone. Hell, who cares what a 4th year Capt makes right. We'll most of our money in this contract TA is being used to correct the mistakes of short sidedness of the pilot group in 98. 04, 05, new hires, Make sure you read the contract and ask many questions. You may be Domestic now, but come Jan, you could be Intl... Everything else matter most and 40G matter less of all...
The union is doing a great job at pointing out all the good things in this TA, make sure and look at the bad stuff as well. Here is the website that will point out the less desirable, day in, day out stuff that will effect you most all the time... http://ipaontop.org/

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Uh, ya....ok

Get something ridiculous and then give back half a few years later. No thanks.

As opposed to settling for something less and then giving back half a few years later anyway?

Negotiate every penny, work rule, benefit you can get when times are good. They will always be looking for givebacks when times get rough.

 

[pipejockey]

In my perfect little world a company like UPS would say "Well, we have more than enough willing to come for $26K but heck, we don't want you all eating Ramen noodles your first year, so we'll give you $50K". Unfortunately it ain't gonna happen.

Exactly!! A little basic figuring on my part...I took and added 30 grand a year to 200 pilots. I figure that is the average number of guys at 1st year pay at UPS historically and it comes out to 6 million more per year. That is chump change to UPS which had 42.6 billion in revenue and 3.9 billion in profit alone. As far as "more than enough willing applicants"...well look at companies like Focus, Southern, Centurion, etc with captains not even earning 6 figures! So UPS knows there are plenty of people out there at other companies who are more than able to get the job done that would work for less than 6 figures as senior captains at UPS, but UPS knows a contract like that would be struck down by those of you already there. I think if the union negotiators made it a point to demand a living wage for the 1st year guys, it would happen. Even Horizon 1st year Dash 8 pilots earn more than UPS. That is a travesty!

 

[pilotyip]

Green, not right now anyway, and I am sure the UAL DAL pilots felt the same way about unending profitibility.

 

[optimater]

I cant wait to find out who you are. I know your in either the first or the second July05 class. I'll find out who you are soon enough you selfish, ignorant bastard!!!

And then what, are you going to egg his flight bag? If you really want a piece of him, why don't you just PM him your name and contact information and you can have it out. Or would you rather call him out on FI and drop anonymous hatemail into his v-file while you hide behind your screenname. Talk about 100% IPA, this union makes me sick. You get a vote, and so does he. Deal with it.

 

[GuppyKiller]

deleted

 

[capt. megadeth]

You my friend need a lesson in finance. These rates don't even keep up with inflation. If you work for UPS and have attended a road show you would know this. Get informed!!

Um, I did go to a road show....but thanks for the advice.

You know, in our perfect little world, our pay would keep up with inflation. Newsflash! PEOPLE WORKING A LOT OF JOBS DON'T GET RAISES MUCH LESS RAISES THAT KEEP UP WITH INFLATION!

Do you know that only 3% of people make over 100K?

 

[capt. megadeth]

What they dont understand is that UPS specifically did this to "Buy" their vote. You may be Domestic now, but come Jan, you could be Intl

BB: I understand this completely....it was the first thought in my mind when I saw the TA rates and "bonus". Secondly, I really don't buy the notion that all of the junior people will be forced to international because of the TA's international rules. I have heard that int'l is the best gig going and a FO told me he made $180K last year with all the overrides, etc. I am not buying into the fact that all these guys will go fly 4 legs a night in a 757 domestically because they have to deadhead to SDF from ANC extending their day to 19 hours. If I am wrong.....you can say I told you so.
Also, please understand, we are not all in "awe". Yes, I can use 40K (I am sure you can too) but it doesn't mean I will vote for it because of that.
Cheers!