UPS or FEDEX?

[ilandopr]

The common metric used by BBB is not exactly correct for FedEx. In general, there are eight 74 hour bid months and four 92 hour bid months per calendar year. Using those BLGs and redoing the math you get $197,760(widebody) and $170,880(narrowbody).
Each pilot has different values. A widebody captain that values his time might only make $170,000 because he values his time off and bids reserve. The RLG at FedEx pays considerably less than RLG (and very little opportunities for per diem, international override, etc.). Others make $250,000 or more because they are chasing the $$$. They do draft trips, AVA, and sell back their vacation.

 

[FreightNazi]

Until the rise of the Low Cost Cargo carriers anyways. Let's hope this never happens.

Sorry, I am just waaaaay to skeptical after these latest airline shenanigans.

What would you call the likes of CAT, Kitty Hawk, Kalitta, Express net? As DHL is finding out the hard way, it takes BILLIONS of $$$ to set up the infrastructure to compete with UPS and FedEx. The Krauts are one of the few that have the $$$ to do something like that. And the contractors that they are using are certainly NOT low cost carriers.

 

[capt. megadeth]

What would you call the likes of CAT, Kitty Hawk, Kalitta, Express net? As DHL is finding out the hard way, it takes BILLIONS of $$$ to set up the infrastructure to compete with UPS and FedEx. The Krauts are one of the few that have the $$$ to do something like that. And the contractors that they are using are certainly NOT low cost carriers.

Hey,
I am not saying that it will happen but I am certainly not going to be one of these people that think I have absolutely nothing to worry about if I am lucky enough to be hired by UPS or FedEx. I mean, I remember my friend and I thinking how lucky a friend of ours was when she got hired at American in July 2001. We were saying "Man, she is so lucky, she is set for life". UMMMMMM, yeah right. I just feel that anyone that thinks that their airline is untouchable because they are doing great right now is a little naive. That's all.

 

[FreightNazi]

Hey,
I am not saying that it will happen but I am certainly not going to be one of these people that think I have absolutely nothing to worry about if I am lucky enough to be hired by UPS or FedEx. I mean, I remember my friend and I thinking how lucky a friend of ours was when she got hired at American in July 2001. We were saying "Man, she is so lucky, she is set for life". UMMMMMM, yeah right. I just feel that anyone that thinks that their airline is untouchable because they are doing great right now is a little naive. That's all.

I understand your point, but you are comparing apples to oranges. The only thing that UPS and FedEx have in common with the "airlines" is that they both operate airplanes, but for totally different reasons. UPS and FedEx were not affected negatively by 9-11, profits for both have gone up each year since 9-11. Both UPS and FedEx pass on the increase in the price of oil to the customer, the "airlines" don't do that. While I am NOT saying that the good times are here forever, there in nothing on the radar that tells anything different.

The bottom line is this.... If you want a job flying an airplane for a living, a job at UPS or FedEx is by far the most secure out there. If you are fortunate enough to have a choice, go with the first one that gives you the offer. Seniority is everything and both will give you a career making top wages, good benefits and a secure retirement.

 

[capt. megadeth]

The bottom line is this.... If you want a job flying an airplane for a living, a job at UPS or FedEx is by far the most secure out there. If you are fortunate enough to have a choice, go with the first one that gives you the offer. Seniority is everything and both will give you a career making top wages, good benefits and a secure retirement.

I agree 100%. Hopefully one of them will call before I turn 60!

 

[MoDee]

Lets pretend that both of companies call at the same time. Does one edge out the other with respect to commuting rules, balance sheet, growth potential, employee treatment, box lunches, etc? Or is it Pepsi and Coke or McDonalds and Burger King...UPS and FedEx?

 

[FreightNazi]

Lets pretend that both of companies call at the same time. Does one edge out the other with respect to commuting rules, balance sheet, growth potential, employee treatment, box lunches, etc? Or is it Pepsi and Coke or McDonalds and Burger King...UPS and FedEx?

Since both contracts are in negotiations, details of how they deal with commuting will have to wait till the contracts are finished. It is safe to say both will have substantial gains. Currently though you'd have to give that one to FedEx. With regards to the balance sheet, I'd say that UPS has the advantage over FedEx. Growth potential is good at both. UPS is at the beginning of a large expansion and although FedEx is hiring in large numbers, they are going to soon have to deal with the problem of phasing out the 727 and DC-10 and going from 3 to 2 person crews. With regards to employee treatment at UPS, your senior managers are all boxheads that look down upon you because you never threw a box. I can't speak for FedEx's treatment of employess, but I have spoken with a couple of our pilots who have relatives that are current FedEx pilots and they tell of similar problems with their pilot group, so it's probably a wash on that point. The bottom line is simple.... Same $hit, different color. Purple or Brown, take your pick. As a newhire, you can't go wrong with either one.

 

[Cyclone]

security

re. previous post and "security of an airline job."

fair enough...FEDEX and UPS are probably more secure than the other carriers.

LCCs are probably more secure than legacy (and they aren't hiring anyway)

blah blah blah

Considerations
Who calls first--you bet--reduce your stress
Quality of life--huge!
Time off--that's why airline pilot jobs were such a good deal
Pay--that's why airline jobs were such a good deal

Flying at night isn't inherently bad. Flying freight isn't all just flying at night. However, your circadian clock is more likely to be in constant disarray if you fly for UPS or FedEx (yea I know the guy flying the caravan all night is thinking what a great promotion it would be).

But before you jump into it and think...I want to do this for the rest of my adult life. Think about the cost. The price you pay will be fatigue and long-term effects (how you age and vulnerability to disease).

Pay. Don't fall into the kit Darby trap of looking at charts of all the majors, nationals, etc and seeing where you will be in 12 years as a Captain. It's BS.
Factors you can't control. 1) Age 60 rule change, 2) future growth or stagnation in hiring, 3) replacing manned aircraft with cargo drones...who knows. Upgrade to Captain may be a LOT slower than you think.

People scoff at the LCCs. If I was starting a career in the airline industry today. I would look at AirTran and JetBlue as the first two choices. Maybe not as secure as FedEx or UPS. Better QOL. Quicker upgrade to Captain (that is QOL). May not make the big bucks but if you start making 100K+ three years from today and live within your means while investing...in the long run you'll be better off.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

If I was starting a career in the airline industry today. I would look at AirTran and JetBlue as the first two choices. Maybe not as secure as FedEx or UPS.

Maybe? LOL! That's like saying an ant is "maybe" as strong as an elephant. You really ought to do some research.

"JetBlue's fourth-quarter net income plunged to $2.4 million, or 2 cents a share, from $19.54 million, or 17 cents a share, a year earlier."

UPS posted an $866 million profit last quarter.

 

[cforst513]

i'm not quite sure if this means anything or not, but here at college i am the student supervisor of our mail and package rooms, and we get roughly 4-5 times the package volume from UPS vs. FedEx. however, the post office destroys both of them. too bad they don't operate their own planes. there wouldn't be enough pilots to stay in the cockpit!!

 

[Cyclone]

Maybe? LOL! That's like saying an ant is "maybe" as strong as an elephant. You really ought to do some research.

"JetBlue's fourth-quarter net income plunged to $2.4 million, or 2 cents a share, from $19.54 million, or 17 cents a share, a year earlier."

UPS posted an $866 million profit last quarter.

I think you missed the point. It's not just about the bucks. Everything depends on our perspective. If a guys lives in Cincinnati, maybe COMAIR is a better choice than Alaska. Alaska pays more, etc but COMAIR may make him happier.

As far as which company it depends on how important different factors are to you. That depends on who and where you are.

UPS/FEDEX versus ABC XYZ
Do you:
A. Own the stock?
B. Work for the company?
C. Both?
D. Neither

If it's just B. then you will feel differently than if it's just A.

UPS had great earnings...I'm sure shareholders are ecstatic. Doesn't change the fact for the pilots that they looked like haggard rag dolls when they showed up for the hotel at 6 am this morning.

As pilots we punch the clock for the company. Hopefully for as long as we want to work. As long as the paycheck is there from the time we start until the time we retire, then corporate earnings don't make for a hill of beans. It matters in the long term for job security and growth...but don't get too wrapped up about earnings per share until management starts sharing with pilots more. JetBlue and AirTran may have ant sized profits, but I'd sure as he11 rather work there than fly freight for 20 years...with the condition that Blue and Citrus will still be around (and they don't need 800 million/quarter every quarter) to pay my paycheck.

 

[Mr Zog]

Cyclone,

There is a misperception abount UPS and FedEx as the only airlines that disrupt circadian clock. Before you jump on the JetBlue bandwagon, I suggest you look at some of there lines. I have a few friends at JetBlue. I am not dogging the company, it is a good company. But here is a reality check... JETBLUE FLYS AT NIGHT. From LGB they will depart at around 9:00 or 10:00 pm on there way to JFK, then when they land at they turn to BOS or Reagan. Spend 13 or 14 hours on the ground and then do the morning departure. You don't think that has effects on you circadian clock. All fling jobs, unless you stay with a regional, will have a ciradian effect. I am not here to sell FedEx or UPS. But I think if people would ever do a little research, they will see the lines at both aren't so bad. In fact, I would you say you would not find better trips at any other company than at FedEx and UPS (of course assuming you are senior); for example 72 hour layovers in Sydney, week long trips to HNL where all you do is fly to Hilo and back in the afternoon, etc.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Doesn't change the fact for the pilots that they looked like haggard rag dolls when they showed up for the hotel at 6 am this morning.

As long as the paycheck is there from the time we start until the time we retire, then corporate earnings don't make for a hill of beans. It matters in the long term for job security and growth...

At UPS, I worked 1 day in the past 30 and that was an 8hr standby period spent watching the boob tube and bs'ing. Flew 0, nada, zip hours in the last 30 days. For all of last year, I averaged just a little over 4 days of work per month. I'm guessing my freight dog lifestyle would compare favorably to JetBlue. <g>

As far as profitability and career longevity ... there is a correlation and that was my poorly made point. Personally, if I were in the market for a major airline job, there are only 3 companies worth seeking: UPS, FedEx, and SWA. Stability is my number one criteria, admittedly. I want to start and end my airline career at a single financially sound carrier and do not wish to gamble with my family's livelihood. Plenty of guys do gamble by seeking employment at start-ups and financially insecure carriers. To each his own.

At any rate, UPS and FedEx do not sound like they would be good fits for you. With 20,000 pilot resumes rumored to be currently on file at UPS, there appears to be a large pool of pilots who think UPS just might be a good fit for them. Best of luck in your career endeavors Cyclone.

 

[Flechas]

Which company is better from a pilot's point of view (i.e. which would you fly for)?

The one that hires you first, they are both great companies I think. Now, if you have a choice because both gave you a classdate, then go for QOL. Either way you will have job security and good pay, so pick one and send me the other one

 

[Brown Cow]

This is a very interesting thread! It is amusing to see how different jobs are perceived by different people. I would like to share my observations.

In walking through airports and sitting in pilot lounges and spending time at crew hotels, I must honestly say that cargo pilots do not look any different from anyone else. This "backside of the clock" thing applies to so many different jobs, too. Some pilots find it easier to get up at 0400 and fly 3 or 4 legs, others find it easier to check in at 2200 and fly 1 or 2 legs during the night. This is merely a matter of preference. I find that pilots who fly during the day work many more days than those that fly at night. At Brown and Purple nobody really says they are overworked!

I often see regional pilots running from one gate to the next dragging 3 bags behind them. They run out to their planes and sit and wait for other planes to arrive for connections. Then they do this 3 or 4 times in one day and are completely exhausted. I admire their dedication and hard work.

However, at UPS for instance, you go out to the plane, preflight and if the freight isn't there, you go back into the lounge with your alarm clock and wait. That sounds pretty easy to me.

As for renumeration, a previous poster mentioned that you will earn over $100,000 within three years at JetBlue and some others. This is certainly true and enticing, but if you are not earning this at the cargo carriers after three or four years, then you need to look at your paystubs a little closer. I am sure that the new contracts will shorten this time-frame even more.

Finally, to touch on the notion that freight pilots look haggered and tired all the time!!!....... This is not true. Different people take care of themselves in different ways. There are some people that have really let themselves go and there are others who are 60 and look great. They are in shape, not too grey and still are a ton of laughs. I think that a good income makes people look different anyways. Many pilots have homes in Florida, or ranches in Texas or lodges in Colorado. This is great r n' r and will refresh the batteries. I know that retiring at Brown or Purple will make someone look real good at 60 or 62 or 65.

BC

 

[Purpledog]

I find that pilots who fly during the day work many more days than those that fly at night. At Brown and Purple nobody really says they are overworked!

Well said Cow,
I have 8 legs 'crammed' into the next 5 days and then 4 weeks of vacation. I am working too hard! I need to throttle it back I guess since I have to wait until July for my second vacation period. Oh yeah those 8 legs are all day legs, vampires do fly during the day also.

 

[Cyclone]

beer belly

I don't disagree with your logic...only with your the context of your point.

If we are discussing opportunities for today's want to be's...don't talk about the guys who are "already there." Telling us "how it is" from where you sit can lead people to some faulty conclusions. It's not the same as "how it may be in the future." You are sitting in the driver's seat already. Congratulations. Guys need to look past the present tense when they decide where they should go. I know you believe this to be the case too but your perspective is different because of where you are and how you got there. In some ways (pay and benefits) I think it would be great to be at UPS. It doesn't end there.

If you went back in time to 1975, 1985, or 1995 and interviewed professional pilots a lot of them would have been making negative points about LUV...1975--start up won't amount to anything, 1985--the party will be over soon, 1995--why work for peanuts. You are making (potentially erroneous or possibly valid) points about JB and AirTran...but if they make it (and I believe they will) then the guys who are getting hired there today will be better off in many ways than the guys getting hired by UPS/FedEx/SWA today...maybe...maybe...maybe.

If I was a guy on the street with 5-10 K hours and all the ratings, etc where would I go today? I agree...I think you have to consider security, upgrade time, domiciles, QOL (personal factors)...etc. You already know my choice...it's not because I don't like you personally.

If you get hired by JetBlue (and everything goes great) or AirTran (and everything goes great) you are looking at a 2-3 year upgrade...IF everything goes great. I acknowledge...lots of conditions...but things really do look pretty good at those companies despite what a lot of us amateur analysts think. In two-three years you are the Captain and making some nice jing. Growth drives seniority (not retirements...they do but ever so slowly).

In two to three years at UPS and FedEx...if...IF...IF...you are lucky enough to be out of the pool by then...the best you can hope for in the same timeframe (an apples to apples hack your clock today comparison) is to be an FO somewere at the bottom of a very long albeit secure list. Upgrade...10-12 years maybe...it's just a different way of looking at it. I'm not saying you're wrong.

Also, I know the lines are varied at all companies...redeyes suck no matter who you work for...but again...more than a sample size of one person's line for one month. In general the pax carriers probably take less of a toll on your body than freight...just a generalization...not always true. Hey I'm not a Doc I just know that when I see you guys I think...look what the cat drug in...poor bastards. I am not trying to spread misinformation about your company...just describing what I've seen.

Since this is an interview board all of us should make points to help those getting in the game think about stuff they may not have considered. Happiness is more than HOW MUCH $? The fact is no one knows where the industry will be in five years. I think UPS and FedEx are a sure thing. I'd love to be a shareholder. You have security...and I'm happy for you. For those looking for jobs...don't just go someplace because of one factor...consider as many opinions and variables before you make an educated decision. And then go to the first one who calls (like 90% of us do). Hopefully it will be the right one for you.

 

[Brown Cow]

Cyclone:
Very good post this time. Your arguments make sense and I understand what you are driving at. Yes, BBB does have a great life. Not everybody has it or will have it as good as he does now; he just made the right conscious decisions some time ago. But, I have to impress one thing upon you, and this too, applies to all those looking for a job with a large jet company.....

You mentioned many times in your posts the "all important" thing about upgrades. This may be important to some, but judging from the number of people who bypass at UPS and FedEx, being a Captain is not the most important thing. QOL is the big winner with most. Plus, you make a very, very good salary in the right seat. This is unfortunately not true at AirTran and JetBlue. At these companies it is almost imperative to get to the left seat.

In order for those seeking "big carrier" employment, look at all factors. Upgrade should not be a deciding factor. If you absolutely need to be a Captain and will not settle for an FO or FE position then this type of arrogance may come back to haunt you. Many of the new hires at the two big cargo carriers had many years in the left seat.....they just felt that maybe other things were a little more important.

 

[Dave Siegel]

Dave Seigal said:



Thanks for the referral Dave, just for your info I turned down a United training date for FedEx..

I believe the post compares UPS to FedEx, geez, talk about a coin toss.....but what I didn't finish getting across is to take the first job offer you get ( like no s**t sherlock) AND if you're fortunate enough to get a second offer, you decide what's best for you......hence, why I chose FDX over UAL........UAL they got their kick ass contract in 2000 and my buddies thought I was nuts to turn down a pax job to fly freight.........PM me Dave in 24 years when I turn 60 to see if that was a good choice......

Later

Nice job. An intelligent, well thought out post. What you say indeed makes perfect sense. I'll PM you in 2029 buddy.

 

[Spur]

In two to three years at UPS and FedEx...if...IF...IF...you are lucky enough to be out of the pool by then...the best you can hope for in the same timeframe (an apples to apples hack your clock today comparison) is to be an FO somewere at the bottom of a very long albeit secure list. Upgrade...10-12 years maybe...it's just a different way of looking at it.

Fact check.

1. There is no pool at FedEx.
2. Current hires will most likely hold widebody FO within 1 year (@ $120+/hr)
3. After 3 years here you will certainly not be at the bottom of the 727 FO list
4. Current upgrades to 727 Capt are about 5-6 years.