UPS or FEDEX?

[Cyclone]

Maybe? LOL! That's like saying an ant is "maybe" as strong as an elephant. You really ought to do some research.

"JetBlue's fourth-quarter net income plunged to $2.4 million, or 2 cents a share, from $19.54 million, or 17 cents a share, a year earlier."

UPS posted an $866 million profit last quarter.

I think you missed the point. It's not just about the bucks. Everything depends on our perspective. If a guys lives in Cincinnati, maybe COMAIR is a better choice than Alaska. Alaska pays more, etc but COMAIR may make him happier.

As far as which company it depends on how important different factors are to you. That depends on who and where you are.

UPS/FEDEX versus ABC XYZ
Do you:
A. Own the stock?
B. Work for the company?
C. Both?
D. Neither

If it's just B. then you will feel differently than if it's just A.

UPS had great earnings...I'm sure shareholders are ecstatic. Doesn't change the fact for the pilots that they looked like haggard rag dolls when they showed up for the hotel at 6 am this morning.

As pilots we punch the clock for the company. Hopefully for as long as we want to work. As long as the paycheck is there from the time we start until the time we retire, then corporate earnings don't make for a hill of beans. It matters in the long term for job security and growth...but don't get too wrapped up about earnings per share until management starts sharing with pilots more. JetBlue and AirTran may have ant sized profits, but I'd sure as he11 rather work there than fly freight for 20 years...with the condition that Blue and Citrus will still be around (and they don't need 800 million/quarter every quarter) to pay my paycheck.

 

[Mr Zog]

Cyclone,

There is a misperception abount UPS and FedEx as the only airlines that disrupt circadian clock. Before you jump on the JetBlue bandwagon, I suggest you look at some of there lines. I have a few friends at JetBlue. I am not dogging the company, it is a good company. But here is a reality check... JETBLUE FLYS AT NIGHT. From LGB they will depart at around 9:00 or 10:00 pm on there way to JFK, then when they land at they turn to BOS or Reagan. Spend 13 or 14 hours on the ground and then do the morning departure. You don't think that has effects on you circadian clock. All fling jobs, unless you stay with a regional, will have a ciradian effect. I am not here to sell FedEx or UPS. But I think if people would ever do a little research, they will see the lines at both aren't so bad. In fact, I would you say you would not find better trips at any other company than at FedEx and UPS (of course assuming you are senior); for example 72 hour layovers in Sydney, week long trips to HNL where all you do is fly to Hilo and back in the afternoon, etc.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Doesn't change the fact for the pilots that they looked like haggard rag dolls when they showed up for the hotel at 6 am this morning.

As long as the paycheck is there from the time we start until the time we retire, then corporate earnings don't make for a hill of beans. It matters in the long term for job security and growth...

At UPS, I worked 1 day in the past 30 and that was an 8hr standby period spent watching the boob tube and bs'ing. Flew 0, nada, zip hours in the last 30 days. For all of last year, I averaged just a little over 4 days of work per month. I'm guessing my freight dog lifestyle would compare favorably to JetBlue. <g>

As far as profitability and career longevity ... there is a correlation and that was my poorly made point. Personally, if I were in the market for a major airline job, there are only 3 companies worth seeking: UPS, FedEx, and SWA. Stability is my number one criteria, admittedly. I want to start and end my airline career at a single financially sound carrier and do not wish to gamble with my family's livelihood. Plenty of guys do gamble by seeking employment at start-ups and financially insecure carriers. To each his own.

At any rate, UPS and FedEx do not sound like they would be good fits for you. With 20,000 pilot resumes rumored to be currently on file at UPS, there appears to be a large pool of pilots who think UPS just might be a good fit for them. Best of luck in your career endeavors Cyclone.

 

[Flechas]

Which company is better from a pilot's point of view (i.e. which would you fly for)?

The one that hires you first, they are both great companies I think. Now, if you have a choice because both gave you a classdate, then go for QOL. Either way you will have job security and good pay, so pick one and send me the other one

 

[Brown Cow]

This is a very interesting thread! It is amusing to see how different jobs are perceived by different people. I would like to share my observations.

In walking through airports and sitting in pilot lounges and spending time at crew hotels, I must honestly say that cargo pilots do not look any different from anyone else. This "backside of the clock" thing applies to so many different jobs, too. Some pilots find it easier to get up at 0400 and fly 3 or 4 legs, others find it easier to check in at 2200 and fly 1 or 2 legs during the night. This is merely a matter of preference. I find that pilots who fly during the day work many more days than those that fly at night. At Brown and Purple nobody really says they are overworked!

I often see regional pilots running from one gate to the next dragging 3 bags behind them. They run out to their planes and sit and wait for other planes to arrive for connections. Then they do this 3 or 4 times in one day and are completely exhausted. I admire their dedication and hard work.

However, at UPS for instance, you go out to the plane, preflight and if the freight isn't there, you go back into the lounge with your alarm clock and wait. That sounds pretty easy to me.

As for renumeration, a previous poster mentioned that you will earn over $100,000 within three years at JetBlue and some others. This is certainly true and enticing, but if you are not earning this at the cargo carriers after three or four years, then you need to look at your paystubs a little closer. I am sure that the new contracts will shorten this time-frame even more.

Finally, to touch on the notion that freight pilots look haggered and tired all the time!!!....... This is not true. Different people take care of themselves in different ways. There are some people that have really let themselves go and there are others who are 60 and look great. They are in shape, not too grey and still are a ton of laughs. I think that a good income makes people look different anyways. Many pilots have homes in Florida, or ranches in Texas or lodges in Colorado. This is great r n' r and will refresh the batteries. I know that retiring at Brown or Purple will make someone look real good at 60 or 62 or 65.

BC

 

[Purpledog]

I find that pilots who fly during the day work many more days than those that fly at night. At Brown and Purple nobody really says they are overworked!

Well said Cow,
I have 8 legs 'crammed' into the next 5 days and then 4 weeks of vacation. I am working too hard! I need to throttle it back I guess since I have to wait until July for my second vacation period. Oh yeah those 8 legs are all day legs, vampires do fly during the day also.

 

[Cyclone]

beer belly

I don't disagree with your logic...only with your the context of your point.

If we are discussing opportunities for today's want to be's...don't talk about the guys who are "already there." Telling us "how it is" from where you sit can lead people to some faulty conclusions. It's not the same as "how it may be in the future." You are sitting in the driver's seat already. Congratulations. Guys need to look past the present tense when they decide where they should go. I know you believe this to be the case too but your perspective is different because of where you are and how you got there. In some ways (pay and benefits) I think it would be great to be at UPS. It doesn't end there.

If you went back in time to 1975, 1985, or 1995 and interviewed professional pilots a lot of them would have been making negative points about LUV...1975--start up won't amount to anything, 1985--the party will be over soon, 1995--why work for peanuts. You are making (potentially erroneous or possibly valid) points about JB and AirTran...but if they make it (and I believe they will) then the guys who are getting hired there today will be better off in many ways than the guys getting hired by UPS/FedEx/SWA today...maybe...maybe...maybe.

If I was a guy on the street with 5-10 K hours and all the ratings, etc where would I go today? I agree...I think you have to consider security, upgrade time, domiciles, QOL (personal factors)...etc. You already know my choice...it's not because I don't like you personally.

If you get hired by JetBlue (and everything goes great) or AirTran (and everything goes great) you are looking at a 2-3 year upgrade...IF everything goes great. I acknowledge...lots of conditions...but things really do look pretty good at those companies despite what a lot of us amateur analysts think. In two-three years you are the Captain and making some nice jing. Growth drives seniority (not retirements...they do but ever so slowly).

In two to three years at UPS and FedEx...if...IF...IF...you are lucky enough to be out of the pool by then...the best you can hope for in the same timeframe (an apples to apples hack your clock today comparison) is to be an FO somewere at the bottom of a very long albeit secure list. Upgrade...10-12 years maybe...it's just a different way of looking at it. I'm not saying you're wrong.

Also, I know the lines are varied at all companies...redeyes suck no matter who you work for...but again...more than a sample size of one person's line for one month. In general the pax carriers probably take less of a toll on your body than freight...just a generalization...not always true. Hey I'm not a Doc I just know that when I see you guys I think...look what the cat drug in...poor bastards. I am not trying to spread misinformation about your company...just describing what I've seen.

Since this is an interview board all of us should make points to help those getting in the game think about stuff they may not have considered. Happiness is more than HOW MUCH $? The fact is no one knows where the industry will be in five years. I think UPS and FedEx are a sure thing. I'd love to be a shareholder. You have security...and I'm happy for you. For those looking for jobs...don't just go someplace because of one factor...consider as many opinions and variables before you make an educated decision. And then go to the first one who calls (like 90% of us do). Hopefully it will be the right one for you.

 

[Brown Cow]

Cyclone:
Very good post this time. Your arguments make sense and I understand what you are driving at. Yes, BBB does have a great life. Not everybody has it or will have it as good as he does now; he just made the right conscious decisions some time ago. But, I have to impress one thing upon you, and this too, applies to all those looking for a job with a large jet company.....

You mentioned many times in your posts the "all important" thing about upgrades. This may be important to some, but judging from the number of people who bypass at UPS and FedEx, being a Captain is not the most important thing. QOL is the big winner with most. Plus, you make a very, very good salary in the right seat. This is unfortunately not true at AirTran and JetBlue. At these companies it is almost imperative to get to the left seat.

In order for those seeking "big carrier" employment, look at all factors. Upgrade should not be a deciding factor. If you absolutely need to be a Captain and will not settle for an FO or FE position then this type of arrogance may come back to haunt you. Many of the new hires at the two big cargo carriers had many years in the left seat.....they just felt that maybe other things were a little more important.

 

[Dave Siegel]

Dave Seigal said:



Thanks for the referral Dave, just for your info I turned down a United training date for FedEx..

I believe the post compares UPS to FedEx, geez, talk about a coin toss.....but what I didn't finish getting across is to take the first job offer you get ( like no s**t sherlock) AND if you're fortunate enough to get a second offer, you decide what's best for you......hence, why I chose FDX over UAL........UAL they got their kick ass contract in 2000 and my buddies thought I was nuts to turn down a pax job to fly freight.........PM me Dave in 24 years when I turn 60 to see if that was a good choice......

Later

Nice job. An intelligent, well thought out post. What you say indeed makes perfect sense. I'll PM you in 2029 buddy.

 

[Spur]

In two to three years at UPS and FedEx...if...IF...IF...you are lucky enough to be out of the pool by then...the best you can hope for in the same timeframe (an apples to apples hack your clock today comparison) is to be an FO somewere at the bottom of a very long albeit secure list. Upgrade...10-12 years maybe...it's just a different way of looking at it.

Fact check.

1. There is no pool at FedEx.
2. Current hires will most likely hold widebody FO within 1 year (@ $120+/hr)
3. After 3 years here you will certainly not be at the bottom of the 727 FO list
4. Current upgrades to 727 Capt are about 5-6 years.

 

[Cyclone]

spur...two-minute rule

I'm glad there's no pool now...good for your company

Fact
There were poolies who waited two years before they got hired at FedEx in '04
If those same guys (they interviewed in Aug '02) had also interviewed/been hired at JetBlue in Aug '02...they will be Captains at Jetblue in six months from today (maybe). They're currently S.O.s on the 72...not bad...just different. And that's all history. As far as the future I hope you're right. It's just something to think about.

Regardless...the rest of your post body is full of predictions, conjectures, and opinion...none of it is in fact a fact. While I'm sure you have much better idea of what will happen than a numbskull like me...that doesn't make your opinion a fact.

Kit Darby used to toss around facts like that at his seminars...boy do we all remember those facts...yikes!

 

[Los1]

sur-

fact!!
Couldve held the left seat of the -27 at 4 years almost to the day!!
Los1

 

[brownie]

fact.
jet blue capt
12 yr=73/hr
fact.
no thanx

 

[psysicx]

What time at night do UPS flights start.And how long to bid international trips on both side.Also we should start a thread why working for them is bad.Working at night sucks but people do for stability.

 

[klhoard]

sur-

fact!!
Couldve held the left seat of the -27 at 4 years almost to the day!!
Los1

.
.
Same here - 4.5 years. . . Staying in the MD-11, though. . . .
.
.
.

 

[capt. megadeth]

JetBlue and AirTran may have ant sized profits, but I'd sure as he11 rather work there than fly freight for 20 years...with the condition that Blue and Citrus will still be around (and they don't need 800 million/quarter every quarter) to pay my paycheck.

Cool.....less competition for me. Good Luck with Airtran and JetBlue

On a side note, Cyclone,
You could make as an FO at FedEx what you would make as a Capt. at JetBlue and Airtran. So, who cares about upgrades? You will just be at the bottom of another list (a junior capt) so where is that QOL then?

 

[Mr Zog]

fact.
jet blue capt
12 yr=73/hr
fact.
no thanx

To keep the record straight. A 12 year JetBlue Captain (which none exist yet) will make about $140/hour. A 12 yr JetBlue F/O makes in the mid-70s.

 

[brownie]

to keep the fact straight go to www.airlinepilotpay .com and ck the senior cpt pay on E190
jet blue E190 senior cpt 73$ an hour.
noooo thanx

 

[walden]

Brownie,
I just checked the site you referred to...the E190 pay scale you mention is not for a "senior" captain....it's for a 2-3 year captain. The "senior" captain (12 years in keeping in line with your last post) is $89/hr.

 

[Purpledog]

But before you jump into it and think...I want to do this for the rest of my adult life. Think about the cost. The price you pay will be fatigue and long-term effects (how you age and vulnerability to disease).

I'd like to look at the effects on long term health of a scenario I see every month.

Guy works 15+ years at his carrier only to lose his job when it goes under. He is now forced to start over in his late 40's-50's. He reaches 60 only to the realization that he must continue working into the golden years b/c he hasn't saved enough to retire. Think this doesn't happen? I fly with a new one of these guys at least every month and unfortunately it looks like there will be many more of these guys down the road. I certainly wouldn't wish this on anyone and the amount of stress and ill effects on someone's health/family/marriage must be enormous. IMHO, I believe peace of mind to be the most beneficial to my health. Compare the above situation to mine. I was fortunate to get hired in my early 30s and barring some major event that would bring FDX/UPS to thier knees, I plan on flying my last revenue flight when I turn 55.
For those making a decision, I definately agree with Cyclone, don't just think about pay, think about everything. The scenario above was why I chose cargo. I'm not much of a risk taker anymore with a family to feed. Also, I really don't want to be working past 55 and I think this venue is the best for me attaining my goal.
Good luck
Back to the subject of this thread, both companies are great. It might come down to something as trivial as if you want to wear a brown suit or a leather jacket. lol. Although I hear brown guys pushing for the leather in thier next uniform change. All joking aside, if you were fortunate enough to get offers from both, I would go with the one that makes it easier to live where you want.

 

[psysicx]

capt megadeth have you applied to Southwest or do you want to be night owl?

 

[VABB]

The Times Are Changing

Just 5 or 6 years ago, the big question was something like UAL or DAL, and most people looked at FedEx and UPS as places only to get good experience. Now, some of these people are having a change of heart. Well, except for maybe the hardcore DAL boys, too much pride to haul freight.

 

[ExAF]

Either

Personally, I don't have a dog in this fight, but do I have good friends that fly at both. From a neutral observer standpoint, either would be a great choice. I recommend going with the first one that offers you a class date. Seniority IS EVERYTHING in this business! Once you have your foot in the door, then you would have a real decision to make...stay or leave. If I had to decide between the 2 at the same time, I think it would depend on quality of life variables. Where do you want to live being the primary issue. If I had to commute, I would lean toward FedEx. At this point in time I think they tend to be a little more "commuter friendly." That could change after contract talks. Both are good companies with good security. Pilots from both companies have things they complain about and tout just like at every other company. Just remember, SENIORITY IS EVERYTHING.

 

[capt. megadeth]

capt megadeth have you applied to Southwest or do you want to be night owl?

I have my app in at Southwest but I want to be a night owl.

 

[LEROY]

Just another FACT to pass along:
FDX 727 F/O at 11 months; could have held MD11 F/O MEM, LAX or ANC. Hiring rate at present is DOUBLE what it was during the 11 months that got me to the right seat so fast. Something to chew on...

 

[psysicx]

Is it possible to go from the FE on the 727 to the right seat of the MD?Or do you have to go to the right seat of the 727?

 

[Spur]

You can go from the back of the 727 to the left seat of the MD-11 if your seniority can hold it.

 

[FedExpert]

Leroy,

I've got something you can chew on.............................
Why didn't you bid the MD-11, are you scared?

 

[Clyde]

I fly for Brown, but would have just as easily have gone to Purple had they called instead.

Whoever can offer you a class date first is probably your best bet. If you have to choose between them, then you are having a really good day.

 

[LEROY]

FedExpert,
I AM scared. And I will be scared when y'all are taking up crashpad space practicing LOFTs while I'm trying to sit A Reserve.
P.S. any pro-rated rent for those of us flying the line while you toil away at the MD 11 building?
Sorry to hi-jack the thread