Update - US Airways Recalls

[MCDU]

Usair Should

 

[steveg]

Ok, I've mostly stayed silent on this, but when you go and compare the West proposal to AA/TWA you've gone too far. Please don't speak about things you obviously know nothing about.

The reason that integration was so bad was because so many TWA pilots were put at the bottom and when furloughs happened, we bore the brunt of them. If the East dream list comes to fruition, it would be very similair in that the West pilots would shoulder all the downside and risk for future furloughs and displacements while the East enjoyed a seniority cushion. As far as future upgrades go, the future of the East pilots is at the center of the argument. You think you had a bright one, most of the rest of the industry thinks you had none. Nothing personal.

Why are the West pilots defensive? I for one use to enjoy working for AWA. Now I'm watching this place slowly fall apart and have to wonder how much is Doug, and how much is the former East employees and management and the sense of entitlement I keep hearing from them. Regardless, I have to wonder how long this train can stay on the tracks? If a furloughed guy has any kind of a decent job, I would strongly advise not coming back.

 

[TWA Dude]

I was formulating a response to Typhoon but Steveg covered it. APA made TWA their furlough-fodder and the proposed AAA list does the same to AWA.

Remember, this isn't about what AAA furloughees or we deserve. We all deserve to be 747 captains but it won't happen. The AAA retirement rate is but one aspect of the whole windfall picture and it's self-serving to focus on it alone.

 

[typhoonpilot]

From the East proposal: "any USAirways pilot on furlough on the date of the first merged bid shall be subject to furlough ahead of America West pilots junior to him/her for 365 days following his/her date of recall."

So, who exactly is speaking about things they know nothing about? The East propsoal tried to be fair for everyone. It's impossible to please everyone. Can we even remotely say the same in regards to the West proposal?


TP

 

[Dogwood]

Our number 1 should be number 1 because your 900 or so above him wouldn't be working at USAirways if AWA didn't put together the deal to buy you guys.

Did your crystal ball tell you that or was it your Magic 8 Ball from the 70s.

 

[DustyBottoms]

I think you folks from AWA need to cut the furloughees a little slack on this message board. We've been on the street now for over 5 years and most of us stopped paying attention to what ALPO was doing after the 3rd or 4th time they screwed us post-furlough.

Bender, what does it mean to be "on the street"? I take it you're not literally living on the street. Are you totally unemployed, or is your current job something other than flying?

5 years seems to be a long time to be unemployed, especially with all the hiring going on in the last few years. If that's the case, are you even trying to get a job, or just waiting for your recall?

Just curious, beacuse I hear that phrase a lot on here. Good luck to you.

 

[DustyBottoms]

Why are the West pilots defensive? I for one use to enjoy working for AWA. Now I'm watching this place slowly fall apart and have to wonder how much is Doug, and how much is the former East employees and management and the sense of entitlement I keep hearing from them. Regardless, I have to wonder how long this train can stay on the tracks? If a furloughed guy has any kind of a decent job, I would strongly advise not coming back.

No kidding, it's scary what's going on around here. Employee moral is not good, and continues to decline.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

It was my Magic 8-ball. Damn thing got me through groundschool since my Ameriflight days.

My point Dogwood is that we got to get over the seniority integration thing. IT IS OUT OF OUR CONTROL NOW. All arguments are equally stupid at this point. We need to focus on getting a contract that makes gains for all pilot groups.

This place is falling apart. A guy in the elevator said the other day that Doug has done in one year what Frankie couldn't do the whole time he was here, he wrecked the place. My feeling is that the USAir culture has absorbed AWA. Instead of the fun place with a can do attitude now its F the man!

AWA is dead. USAir killed it.

 

[BeCareful!]

From the East proposal: "any USAirways pilot on furlough on the date of the first merged bid shall be subject to furlough ahead of America West pilots junior to him/her for 365 days following his/her date of recall."


TP

Don't confuse them with the facts.....they've already made up their minds.

 

[General Lee]

From the East proposal: "any USAirways pilot on furlough on the date of the first merged bid shall be subject to furlough ahead of America West pilots junior to him/her for 365 days following his/her date of recall."

So, who exactly is speaking about things they know nothing about? The East propsoal tried to be fair for everyone. It's impossible to please everyone. Can we even remotely say the same in regards to the West proposal?


TP

In reality, you guys would have gone Chap 7 had AWA not come in and rescued you. The arbitrator will see that, and he actually stated something in those lines when AWA was cross examining your bottom furlough at East. If you think any furloughed pilot should be ahead of any current line pilot, you are dreaming. Thems is the breaks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLYLOW22]

Bender, what does it mean to be "on the street"? I take it you're not literally living on the street. Are you totally unemployed, or is your current job something other than flying?

Are you really that dense?

"On the street" is a slang term and it is used in the context of employment as it relates to US Airways as a pilot.

He has been "on the street for 5 years."

Hope that helps.

I know. English sucks.

 

[FLYLOW22]

In reality, you guys would have gone Chap 7 had AWA not come in and rescued you. The arbitrator will see that, and he actually stated something in those lines when AWA was cross examining your bottom furlough at East. If you think any furloughed pilot should be ahead of any current line pilot, you are dreaming. Thems is the breaks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

So says you. I guess that means it's right... we'll see.

 

[abefly]

So says you. I guess that means it's right... we'll see.

My 2 cents is that if there were any furloughed pilotsd to go ahead of any awa pilots it would be the 1990 and earlier hired furloughed pilots. Since they have around 15+ years of service and Nicolau might take that into account. But as far as the 98-99 furloughs and the CEL pilots. I cant see them being anywhere else but the bottom since they have 3 or less years of service.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

They come back at their paygrade on the 15 year level in fact all F's come back at the pay level for time of service, they just don't get to bid above me for vacation and upgrade.

We need to discuss contract negotiations, this is pointless.

 

[General Lee]

So says you. I guess that means it's right... we'll see.

We'll see alright. It is just common sense. You'll see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ableone]

FYI - On the west side there have been flight cancellations beginning in the end of March due to a lack of crews. Mgmnt decided to stop all long course training out west, i.e. no upgrades or equipment moves. Will this last until the integration is complete? Who knows - but at the moment there are not enough pilots in the west to fly west metal.

 

[vetrider]

FYI - On the west side there have been flight cancellations beginning in the end of March due to a lack of crews. Mgmnt decided to stop all long course training out west, i.e. no upgrades or equipment moves. Will this last until the integration is complete? Who knows - but at the moment there are not enough pilots in the west to fly west metal.

You mean we're behind the eight ball? I'm shocked, just shocked.

 

[FLYLOW22]

We'll see alright. It is just common sense. You'll see.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

You are the proof in the puddin' that common sense... ain't so common.

While I appreciate your opinion, it's just that... and so is mine.

Anything either of us (or any of us for that matter) have to contribute to the conversation is worse than deducting an answer to this issue using a combination of guesswork, spider-sense, ouija board usage and the act of decoding the meaning of a smile on a dog.

How do I feel? I feel that a 1999 hire at US made it "to the show" earlier than a subsequent hire at AWA. I applied earlier and got hired earlier. I feel that time served is worth something. 3 years is three years. Those other guys have but in 15+ years you say? no. Many spent 7 years on furlough during the 90's. Using your calculatiuon method, I have 8 years seniority now at U.

US was affected by 9/11 more severely than AWA hiding out in CMH/LAS and PHX. The combined affect of 9/11 and the prolonged closure of DCA was too painful.

DON'T BOTHER REBUTTING THESE POINTS. Really. They are my opinion only.

In the end, the decision will be made, each furloughee will vote with a yea or nay and that will be that. Until the next merger anyway....


What disturbs me here is how the saga continues in regards to pilots wanting to screw other pilots around. Have we not learned yet? We are all contract labor and we have, as a group, been getting our collective asses kicked inside out by management for years.

Things will not change until we can look past short term deviations and distractions and see the long term goal; Strength through Unity.

When that is possible, the rest will fall in line. Without it you have, well... check out the last 20 years or so. Also, check out the average W2 for pilots over the same period.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

General,

You are the proof in the puddin' that common sense... ain't so common.

While I appreciate your opinion, it's just that... and so is mine.

Anything either of us (or any of us for that matter) have to contribute to the conversation is worse than deducting an answer to this issue using a combination of guesswork, spider-sense, ouija board usage and the act of decoding the meaning of a smile on a dog.

How do I feel? I feel that a 1999 hire at US made it "to the show" earlier than a subsequent hire at AWA. I applied earlier and got hired earlier. I feel that time served is worth something. 3 years is three years. Those other guys have but in 15+ years you say? no. Many spent 7 years on furlough during the 90's. Using your calculatiuon method, I have 8 years seniority now at U.

US was affected by 9/11 more severely than AWA hiding out in CMH/LAS and PHX. The combined affect of 9/11 and the prolonged closure of DCA was too painful.

DON'T BOTHER REBUTTING THESE POINTS. Really. They are my opinion only.

In the end, the decision will be made, each furloughee will vote with a yea or nay and that will be that. Until the next merger anyway....


What disturbs me here is how the saga continues in regards to pilots wanting to screw other pilots around. Have we not learned yet? We are all contract labor and we have, as a group, been getting our collective asses kicked inside out by management for years.

Things will not change until we can look past short term deviations and distractions and see the long term goal; Strength through Unity.

When that is possible, the rest will fall in line. Without it you have, well... check out the last 20 years or so. Also, check out the average W2 for pilots over the same period.

You crack me up. Aren't you the same flylow22 who tormented the UAL pilots years ago during the "proposed merge" with them, asking how you can get your hands on a 747 manual?
Your seniority brings nothing to the new company pal! All you bring to the new company is a furlough number!
Thanks for playing!

 

[FLYLOW22]

You crack me up. Aren't you the same flylow22 who tormented the UAL pilots years ago during the "proposed merge" with them, asking how you can get your hands on a 747 manual?
Your seniority brings nothing to the new company pal! All you bring to the new company is a furlough number!
Thanks for playing!

And thank you for contributing positively to the conversation. You contributed absolutely nothing useful by the way. Just typical attack, repeat attack.

The UAL merger was alot of "fun" (for some). I won't revisit... no need. Pilots getting angry at pilots for the sake of one-upsmanship will get us nowhere. We don;t need to talk about 747s or "career expectations". At the rate things have been trucking along the last several years, I don't think many can claim good career expectations.

I'm not your pal but I am your Brother.

Further, I'm not sure what, if anything, I will or will not bring to "Big Mesa" (US Airways). I'm still collecting information. I'm collecting information to make an informed decision; not one based on pilot rumor and opinion.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Ok guys. Let's bring this conversation back to the topic at hand. US Airways recalls. There is no reason (I can think of) why General Lee would post here. The topic has nothing to do with him or his airline.

The America West pilots who read this board have a right to do so, but only out of morbid curiosity. The pilots who this thread directly impacts are those who have been furloughed by US Airways.

As Flylow22 put it, "on the street". To answer the question that was directly posed to me, no -- I am not unemployed. After the furlough I had the misfortune to go work for PSA for a little while (Dornier 328 F/O -- not J4J). I left there to work for another regional as a CRJ F/O... and left that regional to fly corporate where I remain.

Although I am not unemployed, I still would count myself among those "on the street" from US Airways. I gave them 3+ years and feel that I have some vested interest.

Ok, now for the question and answer period.

Do I feel as though I should be recalled ahead of an AWA pilot who has been on the property continuously over the last 3 or 4 years? No.

Does my opinion matter? No.

Am I pissed off at the provision in the East proposal that I be furloughed ahead of any AWA pilot junior to me for a period of 12 months following recall? Pissed? Sure, but not surprised. ALPA is latin for "I got mine, screw you".

Do I have a right to expect ALPA to fight for the best integration they could possibly get me? Yes.

Do I expect anything other than a screw-job from ALPA? No.

Will I return to US Airways? Depends on my position on the merged seniority list, along with potential pay and retirement. If the deal is better at USAir than where I am currently employed i'll come back. If not, one of the CEL guys can have my spot.

Am I concerned about human factors issues in the combined AWA/USAir cockpit when all is said and done? You betcha.

If I do accept recall, how will I get along with the guy in the left seat? Gear up, clear right, I'll take the chicken.

In summary: Despite all of our differences, we can all complain about having to fly with Chip Munn together.

 

[FLYLOW22]

In summary: Despite all of our differences, we can all complain about having to fly with Chip Munn together.

Here, here and well said!

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Well said Bender. See you at the ATHF:Movie premiere.

 

[Turtle21]

...OK there are a whole lot of dmbshts who think their opinion about seniority integration counts and that any body besides there pet rock gives a rats about how bad the outcome should suck for everyone but them. Save your opinions for when you do show and tell at the chief pilots office.

In summary: Despite all of our differences, we can all complain about having to fly with Chip Munn together.


I thought everyone called in sick when they see him on their flight?! You don't?

 

[BenderGonzales]

"I thought everyone called in sick when they see him on their flight?! You don't?"

The thing about being junior on reserve is when all of the senior folks called in sick when they had to fly with him, us junior pukes got stuck with him.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Green:

Get a life , nobody is expecting to come back senior to AWA captains. Go peddle your crap by that rock you crawled out from under.


TP

Wanna bet???


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

I read in the mec notes that he said not to expect a decision before june.

Guess I'll have more time to work on my Basket Weaving degree from Whatsamatta U Online.

Isn't that 737Pylt's Alma Mata?


PHXFLYR

 

[PHXFLYR]

Oh, but Bender, Green and his ilk would like to take advantage of the 2500 retirements that are going to occur in the East over the next 8 years. They care not about you or your prospects at the new airline. They would like to see themselves upgrade before an East pilot hired in 1989 ( I'm guessing Green was hired in 2000/2001 ).

The East proposal effectively creates fences for the next 7 years to protect both sides from hugely unfair seniority leaps from happening. The West proposal is the worst case scenario and is about as bad as the AA/TWA integration, yet Green comes on here and complains ad nauseam.




We did, but Green jumped into again. A response to his immature ramblings had to be made.



Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Conjecture at best that U would have failed without AWA. I could easily say that, in time, AWA would have failed without the benefits of U's traffic in the east.




It's Nicolau, and I agree.

Now back to our originally scheduled recall thread, thanks for playing



TP[/quote]



Seem's to me your schedule at Emirates doesn't keep you busy enough.....


PHXFLYR

 

[Green]

In reality, you guys would have gone Chap 7 had AWA not come in and rescued you. The arbitrator will see that, and he actually stated something in those lines when AWA was cross examining your bottom furlough at East. If you think any furloughed pilot should be ahead of any current line pilot, you are dreaming. Thems is the breaks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

what he said......

 

[PHXFLYR]

It was my Magic 8-ball. dang thing got me through groundschool since my Ameriflight days.

My point Dogwood is that we got to get over the seniority integration thing. IT IS OUT OF OUR CONTROL NOW. All arguments are equally stupid at this point. We need to focus on getting a contract that makes gains for all pilot groups.

This place is falling apart. A guy in the elevator said the other day that Doug has done in one year what Frankie couldn't do the whole time he was here, he wrecked the place. My feeling is that the USAir culture has absorbed AWA. Instead of the fun place with a can do attitude now its F the man!

AWA is dead. USAir killed it.

They sure did, and it didn't take them very long to do it. Let's see, how many does that make now??? Piedmont,PSA, Trump Shuttle and now us.Not to mention their wholly-owned regionals Piedmont and PSA. Good thing for the Delta folks Parker's hair-brained scheme to merge with them fell apart. Sure would hate to see them dragged down to USAir's level.

PHXFLYR