Update from 9E

[Detroitpilot22]

Yesterday, there was a conference, and our pres indicated that they are accepting voluntary furloughs until monday, at that time they would take a look at what happened from that and determine if they would need to layoff more. He wouldn't say how many or for all long, nor did anyone expect him to admit that information, but he did say that layoffs would be short.

Talk was also about this second certificate. They dont think there will be a scope clause anymore and they want to get 70 seats. I am a bit ignorant on this issue but i am trying to find out more, this is the first time i have been in a union. If the scope clause is gone, why would they even need a second certificate if there is no restriction on the number of people they would fly? Couldn't they just get 70 seats for 9E? It must be to try and get an airline with no union? Is this the same thing that happened at TSA? Anyone that went to the new airline would be considered a "scab"? Once again, I am kind of new to the game and want to see everyone elses opinion.

 

[dondk]

For pilot's they have to give 2 weeks notice, last time they pulled this (sept 01) they gave anywhere from a 7-10 days notice and everyone was recalled within 90 days to hopefully avoid retraining (it did not quite work that way)

Second certificate, that is still many months away, so don't count on that smoke and mirror's show. Once of the conditions of the financing for the second certificate are working agreements for the pilot's and fa's. Otherwise who is going to finance when the cost is really unknown?

Scope, NWA pilots have a great scope clause, basically ALL flying above 55 seats they OWN, with the exception of 36 Avro's. 9E's managment is hoping on NWA management getting scope relief from the bankruptcy judge. Then... the ASA between 9E and NWA would have to be modified to allow us to operate larger than 50 seat aircraft. Neither are going to happen overnight, and IF the ASA is changed, you can bet NWA is going to make sure we stay close to the family and not go out and fly for someone else.

The second certificate would be used to finance the "new" jet's, it would not look favorable for NWA to cry poor and break contracts, concessions, get rid of pensions while buying new aircraft. The second certificate would be in essence a shell company of NWA while the money is coming from elsewhere.
Read MidAtlantic for USAirways all over again.

The only other catch at 9E is they would "prefer" to have this "new" company staffed by a non-union workforce. That would not be a "scab" but an alter-ego airline, Freedom started this new wave of non-union airlines under a union shop.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[LivinDaDream]

The Scope Clause at Mainline restricts your flying under the contract between NWA and ALPA as an AirLink. However, NWA can also restrict your flying on the current certificate. In the past NWA has done everything in it's power to restrict it's regionals from working for anyone else. In the case of XJ, they brought in Pohlad and bought control of the airline to get rid of AirTran.

In the case of 9E, they have what some call a "Golden Share" of stock. They can veto many decisions of your board an Mgmnt with this one share. They did this with CAL at one point as well. CAL had to pay dearly to regain the control of this stock.

 

[Detroitpilot22]

thanks for your insight guys

 

[FlyinPiker]

If the scope clause is gone, why would they even need a second certificate if there is no restriction on the number of people they would fly? .

I have no idea what kind of scope protection you have in place at PCL. But have you ever heard of Blowjets......Freedum.....Republic.......or Big Sky. All 2nd certificates used to put big bones in pilot's bums.

Hopefully you guys are protected.

Piker

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

thanks for your insight guys

What is going on right now has been planned and implemented 6+ months ago by NWA management.

The crewroom and message board experts sound really.....expert.... but I am not sure how a ATP and type makes someone informed on the 'industry', airline BK and the effects at the RJ level.

Pilots talking about all this is like two business men in the cabin convincing themselves they know exactly....even remotely, what is going on in the cockpit...

Pilots usually know what is going when everybody else does...and that is exactly when it is happening....

 

[ASH]

I have no idea what kind of scope protection you have in place at PCL. But have you ever heard of Blowjets......Freedum.....Republic.......or Big Sky. All 2nd certificates used to put big bones in pilot's bums.

Hopefully you guys are protected.

Piker

Rebublic IS NOT in list with freedom, or **Jets. We at CHQ sacraficed much needed payraises last contract to keep Republic from being a separate entity. WE ARE ONE LIST!

 

[Beantown]

Rebublic IS NOT in list with freedom, or **Jets. We at CHQ sacraficed much needed payraises last contract to keep Republic from being a separate entity. WE ARE ONE LIST!

As Freedom is now on one list with all Mesa pilots (with equal or larger sacrafices made in there contract to do it). I think his point was that all these airlines were either started or bought for the purpose of whipsawing the pilot groups. -Bean

 

[FlyinPiker]

Rebublic IS NOT in list with freedom, or **Jets. We at CHQ sacraficed much needed payraises last contract to keep Republic from being a separate entity. WE ARE ONE LIST!

Beantowns on my page....you are not. All the people that call CHQ bottomfeeders might have been having to come up with some other reason to hate you if you didn't have to give sh*t up to fend off RP.

You guys are so fr*cken defensive all the time. RTFP!

Mesaba and Mesa both put the screws to mgmt as well....

Piker

 

[Butters]

What is going on right now has been planned and implemented 6+ months ago by NWA management.

The crewroom and message board experts sound really.....expert.... but I am not sure how a ATP and type makes someone informed on the 'industry', airline BK and the effects at the RJ level.

Pilots talking about all this is like two business men in the cabin convincing themselves they know exactly....even remotely, what is going on in the cockpit...

Pilots usually know what is going when everybody else does...and that is exactly when it is happening....

WTF? You rip on everyone else for being uninformed yet you have a holier-than-though attitude saying you have it all figured out?

Go spout your knowledge on some other board. You're just taking up space here.

 

[PCL_128]

I have no idea what kind of scope protection you have in place at PCL.

From Section 1.B.4:The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.

The second certificate was originally created by the company in an effort to bid for 70-90 seat flying for an airline other than NWA. To avoid NWA scope language, a new certificate had to be created. If the flying is to be done for NWA after the relaxing of scope, then there is no need for the second cert. The flying could then be done on the Pinnacle cert. With the loss of revenue from NWA right now, it is expected that all expenditures on the second certificate are suspended indefinitely anyway. The Pinnacle BOD has stated that all unnecessary capital expenditures have been stopped. Even without the delay, the second cert is still at least 6-12 months from being ready for anything. Any 70 seat flying that becomes available will almost certainly be placed on the Pinnacle cert and flown by Pinnacle pilots.

 

[FlyinPiker]

From Section 1.B.4:The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.

.

It's language.....but pretty weak. I'm sure like all of you I wouldn't count anything out. Nevertheless I am keeping my fingers crossed for both XJ and 9E......while I'm at it I might as well throw in Comair and evey other regional. It's seems nothing is certain these days.

 

[Butters]

From Section 1.B.4:The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.

XJ had the same thing until they formed the "holding company." Then we had to scope that. Unfortunately, scope is never as solid as it seems for regionals.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

WTF? You rip on everyone else for being uninformed yet you have a holier-than-though attitude saying you have it all figured out?

Go spout your knowledge on some other board. You're just taking up space here.

Nope, I never said I have it figured out. I am along for the ride just like you are.... The real information is not available. So trying to figure out what is going on with press releases, SEC website data, rumors and flightinfo screen names is simply futile.

What makes the situation fustrating is the 'discussions' on this message board don't have a respectable sounding board. Most guys are too lazy to read up on airline industry history, becuase they aren't really interested in being effective Air Line Pilots outside of the cockpit. Which doesn't make sense because one would think they would.

Actually what most lazy people want to do is log onto FI to try and cram how they think the world works into thier limited space of thinking. Sure you may have won the one-upmanship dual on the message boards, but has the world really changed or just your elevated self in your own mind?

Is one of the experts offended? Your avatar and attitude will get you an audience in the crewroom.....but that's about it....

 

[Butters]

Is one the the experts offended? Your avatar and attitude will get you an audience in the crewroom.....but that's about it....

Offended by you? Not in the least.

Yet it's funny that once again, you have to take a cheap shot and sound like an elitist. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[SpartyOn]

There is one thing I don't understand. Why is Pinnacle parking airplanes if XJ is currently taking delivery of new CRJs.

 

[Butters]

There is one thing I don't understand. Why is Pinnacle parking airpalnes and XJ currently taking delivery?

XJ and Pinnacle are parking planes. XJ delieveries have been delayed until financing is figured out (if it's figured out). If XJ CRJ deliveries are continued, it is only because they were awarded prior to bankruptcy.

Basically they are pulling back flying at mainline and both regionals.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Offended by you? Not in the least.

Yet it's funny that once again, you have to take a cheap shot and sound like an elitist. Thanks for proving my point.

Elitist? Hardly. Knowing that I am a blue collar hourly worker, I know have more in common with hotel maids and factory workers than most pilots realize.

Elitist? Nope, we are all in this together. I prefer Egalitarian. I'm really not that smart, maybe just well read... and maybe been thru the whole BK thing a couple of times....

XJ and Pinnacle are parking planes. XJ delieveries have been delayed until financing is figured out (if it's figured out). If XJ CRJ deliveries are continued, it is only because they were awarded prior to bankruptcy.

Basically they are pulling back flying at mainline and both regionals.

Right back at it.....

 

[DoinTime]

XJ had the same thing until they formed the "holding company." Then we had to scope that. Unfortunately, scope is never as solid as it seems for regionals.

Fortunatly for PCL pilots the Pinnacle holding company was formed after this agreement was inked and when you take the above quoted bit of scope language and combine it with our succesorship language you have pretty good scope protection.

B. SUCCESSORSHIP
This Agreement will be binding upon any successor or merged Company or companies or any successor in the control of the Company, regardless of the nature of the transfer of control (including purchase, sale, merger, consolidation, acquisition, leasing of the operation, reorganization for the benefit of creditors, and bankruptcy) unless or until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act, as amended. As soon as the Company becomes aware of a transaction described in the foregoing sentence and it is legally permissible to disclose such information, it will advise the MEC Chairman.