Unted Continental Holdings 3rd Quarter Results

[HalinTexas]

It's a little insulting to the intelligence to equate child labor issues with pilot rest and slavery with outsourcing.

However, I'm with you that when a company can no longer generate revenue to cover expenses it should liquidate rather reorganize under Ch. 11. <-- sarcasm alert

 

[HalinTexas]

Why does the current generation of pilots not understand the above concept?

STRIKE.

UAL/CAL ALPA are trying to win the battle through attrition and being defensive when the offensive is the only method.

Calling for release has to be done by the MEC's. Where is the strike vote? Where is the call with the NMB for self help? Where is the action to win?

It ain't W's fault now! It's B.O's NMB. Strange how no one's complaining about "the Anointed One's" lack of support here.

 

[densoo]

It's a little insulting to the intelligence to equate child labor issues with pilot rest and slavery with outsourcing.

Sorry, but I guess the insult will continue.

They may seem far removed, but they are connected on the continuum of labor treatment and all that separates one from other are laws. Not possible?

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP 2008) - The owner and managers of the largest kosher meatpacking plant in the U.S. were charged Tuesday with more than 9,000 misdemeanors alleging they hired minors and had children younger than 16 handle dangerous equipment such as circular saws and meat grinders.

and

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves. The United States is a destination country for thousands of men, women, and children trafficked largely from Mexico and East Asia, as well as countries in South Asia, Central America, Africa, and Europe, for the purposes of sexual and labor exploitation. Three-quarters of all foreign adult victims identified during the Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 were victims of trafficking for forced labor.

To a person this is a moral issue, to the labor market it's just business.

If you think your employer wants to pay you fairly you're dreaming. They will pay as little as the law and our ability to collective bargain will allow. If they could take their outsourcing international you would see a third world carrier doing domestic flying in a heartbeat, with the crew "paid" simply for the privilege of operating a plane, meals, and a hotel.

All it takes is change in the law.

 

[HalinTexas]

Sorry, but I guess the insult will continue.

They may seem far removed, but they are connected on the continuum of labor treatment and all that separates one from other are laws. Not possible?

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP 2008) - The owner and managers of the largest kosher meatpacking plant in the U.S. were charged Tuesday with more than 9,000 misdemeanors alleging they hired minors and had children younger than 16 handle dangerous equipment such as circular saws and meat grinders.

and

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves. The United States is a destination country for thousands of men, women, and children trafficked largely from Mexico and East Asia, as well as countries in South Asia, Central America, Africa, and Europe, for the purposes of sexual and labor exploitation. Three-quarters of all foreign adult victims identified during the Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 were victims of trafficking for forced labor.

To a person this is a moral issue, to the labor market it's just business.

If you think your employer wants to pay you fairly you're dreaming. They will pay as little as the law and our ability to collective bargain will allow. If they could take their outsourcing international you would see a third world carrier doing domestic flying in a heartbeat, with the crew "paid" simply for the privilege of operating a plane, meals, and a hotel.

All it takes is change in the law.

Child labor was not new to business in the early 20th century. It was an historical practice all over the world. The US and other nations determined at the time that a child working under the direction of his family to support his family was immoral, and I'm glad they did. India and other nations have not made that determination yet. It was NOT a labor movement. It was a moral argument, much like prohibition. Rhetorical question: If unions or public outcry had negotiated a safer workplace, would child labor laws have changed? I'm not so sure. Unions and guilds were more than happy to have more members regardless of age.

Having recently returned from "The Worker's Paradise" of Communist China, there is a market for labor. China has some slightly more restrictive rest requirements than the US. Mostly, the requirement of 36 hrs. in 7 days. But they ignore them, and government knows this. Secondly, expat pilots are drawn to work in China for pay twice what they pay Chinese pilots. Labor unions are illegal in China. There is a market for labor.

Last fall while working under contract in Colombia, I was paid more than twice what the privately held airline paid their own pilots. There is a market for labor.

I'm furloughed again. The expat market is about to heat up. The Asian, Africans, and ME's are losing pilots back to there home countries and retirements. I'm looking everywhere.

What YOU think is fair and what your EMPLOYER thinks is fair are two different things. You're worth what you negotiate, which is effected by the market.

If you think anyone in the US is a slave, you're intellectually dishonest, ignorant, or just pandering. Just like unions that promise "fairness" and flight schools that market pilot shortages and promote the romantic good life of the airline pilots.

Are you willing to give up income, so that more pilots can be hired to cover the same amount of flights under new rest rules? I'm sure you're not. Are you willing to sacrifice the income and careers of other pilots whose airlines cannot afford the increase costs? I know what you're going to say, "Well that evil management could just increase ticket prices." I've been hearing that for 20 years. Pilots are not management. We're pilots, labor. The successful airlines' management were never pilots for any airline.

As far as safety, I fired my first weapon when I was 6. I taught my 14 y.o. daughter how to shoot last weekend with that very same 22 rifle. I mowed my families lawn with gas-powered, foot-propelled lawnmower at that same age. I never wore a helmet riding a bicycle while growing up. My first job was at 14 at a driving range, driving an uncaged golf cart to shag balls. I find your argument blown out of proportion, and most likely biased. I'd like to see your reference to that CIA study, preferably a direct reference not a meta-reference.

 

[RT8VA]

Why does the current generation of pilots not understand the above concept?

STRIKE.

UAL/CAL ALPA are trying to win the battle through attrition and being defensive when the offensive is the only method.

Calling for release has to be done by the MEC's. Where is the strike vote? Where is the call with the NMB for self help? Where is the action to win?

There are so many required steps to this process before a strike can take place sounds like you haven't been through this before. There is no way at this stage of the game a cooling off period would be considered by the NMB considering both the short time we have been in mediated talks and the amount of sections that are still open. Wherever you work talk to your union reps about the RLA process and I am sure they can explain it in much more detail then I can. I have been through this process from beginning to strike day at my previous airline and I can tell you it is slow and painfull, the whole process is meant to keep the company running not help move along a contract.

 

[densoo]

HalinTexas,

You're right. My comments are over the top. I've been reading a lot of labor history stuff so I'm seeing it through a very narrow lens lately. As you said, the market pressures of cheap labor certainly preceded the 1900s or this country.

What labor is experiencing today is nothing akin to slavery but is simply an example of how powerful the market forces can be to achieve cheap labor, overriding basic morality in pursuit of it.

Regarding safety, cheaper labor costs are often achieved by compromising safe working conditions. Yes, children can be safe and responsible, but there are child labor laws that are there for good reason.

I have in fact taken a reduction in income by not flying beyond my assigned line beginning three years ago when the furlough letters were sent out. After all pilots were back on property this summer, I reduced my flying further out of frustration with negotiations. In the 70s this month, in the 60s next month. It is a meaningless gesture I suppose.

I heartily agree with "you're worth what you negotiate which is affected by the market."

Here's the CIA primary source about modern-day slavery in the U.S., from their website.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ications/books-and-monographs/trafficking.pdf

 

[list2002]

End result of any finger wagging at Jeff by the arbitrator is nada. You can't have an impasse if you don't negotiate in the first place... so we can't be released to self-help if mgmnt refuses to counter. Our own union puts further pressure on the pilots by GIVING away profit sharing, then asks for more $$ to continue "talks." Nothing will be done till mgmnt is good and ready (gets their IT shaite together) and legally there is nothing we can do about it. Wear a red triangle pin to stick it to the man...
Frustrated as well, but as RT8VA said, that's the way it's set up. Mgmnt knows it, and as long as $$ is made, they can handle a few harsh words.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So when the union has no power to negoiate.

Why didn't the union just tell us the facts. We are powerless. We have no idea when we will get a deal. The deal we get is going to be at the generosity of management. When management finds a soft spot in their heart you might get a raise but don't hold your breath.

 

[list2002]

Well, we'll get a new contract when it makes the company $$. Right now the union has their hands full just enforcing the current contracts from being abused by mgmnt, and it is helping. But as far as being able to influence the timing on the next contract, RLA wise, we got our hands tied is how I see it.

 

[Captain X]

I don't know the answer but I'm nervous. Damn 3 yr old can negotiate better than this,

So I'm guessing you'll be submitting your resume' at the soonest possible opportunity then?