Unted Continental Holdings 3rd Quarter Results

[Andy]

Also, thanks ALPA for being short sighted enough to NOT include profit sharing in the TPA. I just have love for this ******************** hole all around.

Section 8 of the TPA sunsetted at the end of 2010. It NEVER should have sunsetted.
There are several items in Section 13-A that will hurt the UAL pilots when they sunset at the end of this year.
Our JNC made the error of putting too many items that sunsetted in favor of management. The only fix at this point for Section 8 is a JCBA that includes retro profit sharing for the CAL pilots.

Stupid question here. Are the same people who negotiated the TPA working on the JCBA? I hope not; they need some adult supervision - and I'm not talking ALPA national.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I don't know the answer but I'm nervous. Damn 3 yr old can negotiate better than this,

 

[Andy]

I don't know the answer but I'm nervous. Damn 3 yr old can negotiate better than this,

Yes, this suddenly hit me like a 2x4. I've been sitting here reading the various sections of the TPA and I understand some of management's escape clauses. But those escape clauses are all related to denial of regulatory approval for the merger. These provisions sunsetting prior to a JCBA make no sense from the pilots' point of view and should never have been agreed to.
Now that these 'opportunities' have become available to management, I can't blame them for taking advantage of them.

But now my big concern is that we have the same people at the table who negotiated the TPA making the same mistakes on the JCBA. What is REALLY needed on the pilot's side of the table is to hire/contract a former management weenie who specialized in screwing over the rank and file when negotiating contracts. He'd be looking for language in the contract that can be twisted to exploit loopholes.

 

[mamba20]

And now our CALALPA "leaders" are asking us for more money. Just what in the hell have they been doing the past 17 months? I want to see a detailed accounting of money and time spent by these people.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Ya, 230,000 a month. I'm shocked by this. Dinner with lawyers, happy ending massages, and colon cleansing is ok, but 1200 bucks for food and beverages at our local meetings??

 

[AC560]

No dog in the fight but I am curious by your post.

Where's my motivation save money?

Obviously if you and all other pilots do all possible to increase costs the company suffers. Do you think that benefits any of the workers or enables the company to pay additional wages? One can certainly make an argument about a greedy company not sharing but do you think it is realistic to see a broke company share let alone stay in business. How does this benefit anyone?

Also, thanks ALPA for being short sighted enough to NOT include profit sharing in the TPA.

Your union failed to negotiate something so the end result is you punish the company for your representatives failure to negotiate effectively for you?

 

[Ex737Driver]

No dog in the fight but I am curious by your post.



Obviously if you and all other pilots do all possible to increase costs the company suffers. Do you think that benefits any of the workers or enables the company to pay additional wages? One can certainly make an argument about a greedy company not sharing but do you think it is realistic to see a broke company share let alone stay in business. How does this benefit anyone?



Your union failed to negotiate something so the end result is you punish the company for your representatives failure to negotiate effectively for you?

I think we are all listening here; just how would you approach this? What exactly do you thing would bring this closer to a solution? It's very easy to armchair QB but I'm sure we would all like to hear what we should do with this situation.

 

[Nixon]

Section 8 of the TPA sunsetted at the end of 2010. It NEVER should have sunsetted.
There are several items in Section 13-A that will hurt the UAL pilots when they sunset at the end of this year.
Our JNC made the error of putting too many items that sunsetted in favor of management. The only fix at this point for Section 8 is a JCBA that includes retro profit sharing for the CAL pilots.

Stupid question here. Are the same people who negotiated the TPA working on the JCBA? I hope not; they need some adult supervision - and I'm not talking ALPA national.

Please stop verbing nouns.

 

[densoo]

Obviously if you and all other pilots do all possible to increase costs the company suffers. Do you think that benefits any of the workers or enables the company to pay additional wages?

That is the whole point of the RLA. Those who wrote it understood that, in the end, there is only one way for workers to influence a company--threaten it's very existence by shutting it down.

This seems drastic but it came about due to the abuse of labor that created a level of public outrage in the early 1900s that the politicians could no longer ignore. Corporations lobbied for decades to prevent unionization, just like the ATA is now trying to stop rest rules, but largely due to media exposure they had to capitulate.

Several incidents moved the dial on this, perhaps the most prominent was this one, killing many wives and daughters,

275 girls started to collect their belongings as they were leaving work at 4:45 PM on Saturday. Within twenty minutes some of girls' charred bodies were lined up along the East Side of Greene Street. Those girls who flung themselves from the ninth floor were merely covered with tarpaulins where they hit the concrete. The Bellevue morgue was overrun with bodies and a makeshift morgue was set up on the adjoining pier on the East River. Hundred's of parents and family members came to identify their lost loved ones. 146 employees of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company were dead the night of March 25, 1911. The horror of their deaths led to numerous changes in occupational safety standards that currently ensure the safety of workers today.

And the use child labor such as this,

Until about 1900, nearly all coal breaking facilities in the United States were labor-intensive. The removal of impurities was done by hand, usually by breaker boys between the ages of eight and 12 years old.The use of breaker boys began around 1866. For 10 hours a day, six days a week, breaker boys would sit on wooden seats, perched over the chutes and conveyor belts, picking slate and other impurities out of the coal. Breaker boys sometimes had their fingers amputated by the rapidly moving conveyor belts. Others lost feet, hands, arms, and legs as they moved among the machinery and became caught under conveyor belts or in gears.Many were crushed to death, their bodies retrieved from the gears of the machinery by supervisors only at the end of the working day. Others were caught in the rush of coal, and crushed to death or smothered.

The marketplace wants cheap labor and it had free labor for 250 years (first slaves in Jamestown in 1619). Without legal protections it will always go there. Recently bankruptcy, outsourcing, and soon cabotage have become part of this process.

Shutting down a company is the only recourse at a certain point.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Shutting down a company is the only recourse at a certain point.

Why does the current generation of pilots not understand the above concept?

STRIKE.

UAL/CAL ALPA are trying to win the battle through attrition and being defensive when the offensive is the only method.

Calling for release has to be done by the MEC's. Where is the strike vote? Where is the call with the NMB for self help? Where is the action to win?