Unted Continental Holdings 3rd Quarter Results

[145BOSS]

Posting a pretty good number.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/United-Continental-Holdings-prnews-4070173913.html?x=0&.v=1

 

[145BOSS]

P.S. I sincerely apologize for not starting a thread involving the AirTran/Southwest merger. Moderators, feel free to remove.

 

[nimtz]

Jeff Sismek Daily Itinerary 10/27

1) Throw up a huge number due to inheriting two labor forces working for
BK wages.

2) Tell everyone on conference call that the merger is a unmitigated
success by emphasizing how many planes have been painted.

3) Tell stooges in Flights Ops to remind line pilots they will not take in
profit sharing this year.

4) Throw feet up on desk and light up a cohiba by 2 pm

5) Reflect that you'll be long gone with a fat pot of gold by the time all
the problems your management clowns junk the airline.


It's good to be Jeff

 

[densoo]

Jeff Sismek Daily Itinerary 10/27

3) Tell stooges in Flights Ops to remind line pilots they will not take in profit sharing this year.

UAL pilots get profit sharing. All FAs at both companies get profit sharing. All members of flight ops get profit sharing with one exception.

In fact, of all the employee groups and 80,000 co-workers at two companies merged into one, CAL pilots alone have selflessly agreed to help Jeff by foregoing any profit sharing until the JCBA is done in three+ years.

 

[Ex737Driver]

UAL pilots get profit sharing. All FAs at both companies get profit sharing. All members of flight ops get profit sharing with one exception.

In fact, of all the employee groups and 80,000 co-workers at two companies merged into one, CAL pilots alone have selflessly agreed to help Jeff by foregoing any profit sharing until the JCBA is done in three+ years.

And hopefully the list grows with those looking to FUND THEIR OWN FUTURE.

 

[densoo]

And hopefully the list grows with those looking to FUND THEIR OWN FUTURE.

Agreed. And when they stop "funding their futures" with VJM and CAs in right seat, they might get somewhere.

 

[Skippy]

bingo!

 

[mamba20]

As a CAL pilot who will not be getting any profit sharing thats just 773 million reason why I refuse to do anything that saves the company money. cost indexing, shutting down the APU at gate, talking captains out of single engine taxing and starting the APU the moment I arrive at the aircraft. I would encourage all CAL pilots to do the same. Where's my motivation save money?

"If I bust my ass and Inotech moves a few extra units, I dont see another dime. So where's the motivation?"

Also, thanks ALPA for being short sighted enough to NOT include profit sharing in the TPA. I just have love for this ******************** hole all around.

 

[RT8VA]

Already 242 million in the profit sharing pot after the first 3 quarters nice job cal alpa leaving us out of that one.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Man, I wonder what my profit sharing check is gonna be!!!????? Oh ya....nothing.

First of all, I'm livid about this. It's was explained to us at the last IAH meeting that the United pilots have it in their CBA. The Transition Agreement gave the CAL pilots 2010 profit sharing whereas we weren't gonna get anything. CALALPA tried and failed to get the company to pay for profit sharing for CAL pilots for 2011. So, in their eyes, at least we got 1 yr. CALALPA assumed that we'd have a contract by now with profit sharing. I'm furious about this. Assumed??? WTF, since when to we assume anything!!!! So, from what I hear, they're working on getting us this profit sharing through higher payouts in retro or signing bonuses. We'll see.

 

[Andy]

Also, thanks ALPA for being short sighted enough to NOT include profit sharing in the TPA. I just have love for this ******************** hole all around.

Section 8 of the TPA sunsetted at the end of 2010. It NEVER should have sunsetted.
There are several items in Section 13-A that will hurt the UAL pilots when they sunset at the end of this year.
Our JNC made the error of putting too many items that sunsetted in favor of management. The only fix at this point for Section 8 is a JCBA that includes retro profit sharing for the CAL pilots.

Stupid question here. Are the same people who negotiated the TPA working on the JCBA? I hope not; they need some adult supervision - and I'm not talking ALPA national.

 

[whatitdoing?]

I don't know the answer but I'm nervous. Damn 3 yr old can negotiate better than this,

 

[Andy]

I don't know the answer but I'm nervous. Damn 3 yr old can negotiate better than this,

Yes, this suddenly hit me like a 2x4. I've been sitting here reading the various sections of the TPA and I understand some of management's escape clauses. But those escape clauses are all related to denial of regulatory approval for the merger. These provisions sunsetting prior to a JCBA make no sense from the pilots' point of view and should never have been agreed to.
Now that these 'opportunities' have become available to management, I can't blame them for taking advantage of them.

But now my big concern is that we have the same people at the table who negotiated the TPA making the same mistakes on the JCBA. What is REALLY needed on the pilot's side of the table is to hire/contract a former management weenie who specialized in screwing over the rank and file when negotiating contracts. He'd be looking for language in the contract that can be twisted to exploit loopholes.

 

[mamba20]

And now our CALALPA "leaders" are asking us for more money. Just what in the hell have they been doing the past 17 months? I want to see a detailed accounting of money and time spent by these people.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Ya, 230,000 a month. I'm shocked by this. Dinner with lawyers, happy ending massages, and colon cleansing is ok, but 1200 bucks for food and beverages at our local meetings??

 

[AC560]

No dog in the fight but I am curious by your post.

Where's my motivation save money?

Obviously if you and all other pilots do all possible to increase costs the company suffers. Do you think that benefits any of the workers or enables the company to pay additional wages? One can certainly make an argument about a greedy company not sharing but do you think it is realistic to see a broke company share let alone stay in business. How does this benefit anyone?

Also, thanks ALPA for being short sighted enough to NOT include profit sharing in the TPA.

Your union failed to negotiate something so the end result is you punish the company for your representatives failure to negotiate effectively for you?

 

[Ex737Driver]

No dog in the fight but I am curious by your post.



Obviously if you and all other pilots do all possible to increase costs the company suffers. Do you think that benefits any of the workers or enables the company to pay additional wages? One can certainly make an argument about a greedy company not sharing but do you think it is realistic to see a broke company share let alone stay in business. How does this benefit anyone?



Your union failed to negotiate something so the end result is you punish the company for your representatives failure to negotiate effectively for you?

I think we are all listening here; just how would you approach this? What exactly do you thing would bring this closer to a solution? It's very easy to armchair QB but I'm sure we would all like to hear what we should do with this situation.

 

[Nixon]

Section 8 of the TPA sunsetted at the end of 2010. It NEVER should have sunsetted.
There are several items in Section 13-A that will hurt the UAL pilots when they sunset at the end of this year.
Our JNC made the error of putting too many items that sunsetted in favor of management. The only fix at this point for Section 8 is a JCBA that includes retro profit sharing for the CAL pilots.

Stupid question here. Are the same people who negotiated the TPA working on the JCBA? I hope not; they need some adult supervision - and I'm not talking ALPA national.

Please stop verbing nouns.

 

[densoo]

Obviously if you and all other pilots do all possible to increase costs the company suffers. Do you think that benefits any of the workers or enables the company to pay additional wages?

That is the whole point of the RLA. Those who wrote it understood that, in the end, there is only one way for workers to influence a company--threaten it's very existence by shutting it down.

This seems drastic but it came about due to the abuse of labor that created a level of public outrage in the early 1900s that the politicians could no longer ignore. Corporations lobbied for decades to prevent unionization, just like the ATA is now trying to stop rest rules, but largely due to media exposure they had to capitulate.

Several incidents moved the dial on this, perhaps the most prominent was this one, killing many wives and daughters,

275 girls started to collect their belongings as they were leaving work at 4:45 PM on Saturday. Within twenty minutes some of girls' charred bodies were lined up along the East Side of Greene Street. Those girls who flung themselves from the ninth floor were merely covered with tarpaulins where they hit the concrete. The Bellevue morgue was overrun with bodies and a makeshift morgue was set up on the adjoining pier on the East River. Hundred's of parents and family members came to identify their lost loved ones. 146 employees of the Triangle Shirtwaist Company were dead the night of March 25, 1911. The horror of their deaths led to numerous changes in occupational safety standards that currently ensure the safety of workers today.

And the use child labor such as this,

Until about 1900, nearly all coal breaking facilities in the United States were labor-intensive. The removal of impurities was done by hand, usually by breaker boys between the ages of eight and 12 years old.The use of breaker boys began around 1866. For 10 hours a day, six days a week, breaker boys would sit on wooden seats, perched over the chutes and conveyor belts, picking slate and other impurities out of the coal. Breaker boys sometimes had their fingers amputated by the rapidly moving conveyor belts. Others lost feet, hands, arms, and legs as they moved among the machinery and became caught under conveyor belts or in gears.Many were crushed to death, their bodies retrieved from the gears of the machinery by supervisors only at the end of the working day. Others were caught in the rush of coal, and crushed to death or smothered.

The marketplace wants cheap labor and it had free labor for 250 years (first slaves in Jamestown in 1619). Without legal protections it will always go there. Recently bankruptcy, outsourcing, and soon cabotage have become part of this process.

Shutting down a company is the only recourse at a certain point.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Shutting down a company is the only recourse at a certain point.

Why does the current generation of pilots not understand the above concept?

STRIKE.

UAL/CAL ALPA are trying to win the battle through attrition and being defensive when the offensive is the only method.

Calling for release has to be done by the MEC's. Where is the strike vote? Where is the call with the NMB for self help? Where is the action to win?

 

[HalinTexas]

It's a little insulting to the intelligence to equate child labor issues with pilot rest and slavery with outsourcing.

However, I'm with you that when a company can no longer generate revenue to cover expenses it should liquidate rather reorganize under Ch. 11. <-- sarcasm alert

 

[HalinTexas]

Why does the current generation of pilots not understand the above concept?

STRIKE.

UAL/CAL ALPA are trying to win the battle through attrition and being defensive when the offensive is the only method.

Calling for release has to be done by the MEC's. Where is the strike vote? Where is the call with the NMB for self help? Where is the action to win?

It ain't W's fault now! It's B.O's NMB. Strange how no one's complaining about "the Anointed One's" lack of support here.

 

[densoo]

It's a little insulting to the intelligence to equate child labor issues with pilot rest and slavery with outsourcing.

Sorry, but I guess the insult will continue.

They may seem far removed, but they are connected on the continuum of labor treatment and all that separates one from other are laws. Not possible?

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP 2008) - The owner and managers of the largest kosher meatpacking plant in the U.S. were charged Tuesday with more than 9,000 misdemeanors alleging they hired minors and had children younger than 16 handle dangerous equipment such as circular saws and meat grinders.

and

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves. The United States is a destination country for thousands of men, women, and children trafficked largely from Mexico and East Asia, as well as countries in South Asia, Central America, Africa, and Europe, for the purposes of sexual and labor exploitation. Three-quarters of all foreign adult victims identified during the Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 were victims of trafficking for forced labor.

To a person this is a moral issue, to the labor market it's just business.

If you think your employer wants to pay you fairly you're dreaming. They will pay as little as the law and our ability to collective bargain will allow. If they could take their outsourcing international you would see a third world carrier doing domestic flying in a heartbeat, with the crew "paid" simply for the privilege of operating a plane, meals, and a hotel.

All it takes is change in the law.

 

[HalinTexas]

Sorry, but I guess the insult will continue.

They may seem far removed, but they are connected on the continuum of labor treatment and all that separates one from other are laws. Not possible?

DES MOINES, Iowa (AP 2008) - The owner and managers of the largest kosher meatpacking plant in the U.S. were charged Tuesday with more than 9,000 misdemeanors alleging they hired minors and had children younger than 16 handle dangerous equipment such as circular saws and meat grinders.

and

The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency estimates that 50,000 people are trafficked into or transited through the U.S.A. annually as sex slaves, domestics, garment, and agricultural slaves. The United States is a destination country for thousands of men, women, and children trafficked largely from Mexico and East Asia, as well as countries in South Asia, Central America, Africa, and Europe, for the purposes of sexual and labor exploitation. Three-quarters of all foreign adult victims identified during the Fiscal Year (FY) 2008 were victims of trafficking for forced labor.

To a person this is a moral issue, to the labor market it's just business.

If you think your employer wants to pay you fairly you're dreaming. They will pay as little as the law and our ability to collective bargain will allow. If they could take their outsourcing international you would see a third world carrier doing domestic flying in a heartbeat, with the crew "paid" simply for the privilege of operating a plane, meals, and a hotel.

All it takes is change in the law.

Child labor was not new to business in the early 20th century. It was an historical practice all over the world. The US and other nations determined at the time that a child working under the direction of his family to support his family was immoral, and I'm glad they did. India and other nations have not made that determination yet. It was NOT a labor movement. It was a moral argument, much like prohibition. Rhetorical question: If unions or public outcry had negotiated a safer workplace, would child labor laws have changed? I'm not so sure. Unions and guilds were more than happy to have more members regardless of age.

Having recently returned from "The Worker's Paradise" of Communist China, there is a market for labor. China has some slightly more restrictive rest requirements than the US. Mostly, the requirement of 36 hrs. in 7 days. But they ignore them, and government knows this. Secondly, expat pilots are drawn to work in China for pay twice what they pay Chinese pilots. Labor unions are illegal in China. There is a market for labor.

Last fall while working under contract in Colombia, I was paid more than twice what the privately held airline paid their own pilots. There is a market for labor.

I'm furloughed again. The expat market is about to heat up. The Asian, Africans, and ME's are losing pilots back to there home countries and retirements. I'm looking everywhere.

What YOU think is fair and what your EMPLOYER thinks is fair are two different things. You're worth what you negotiate, which is effected by the market.

If you think anyone in the US is a slave, you're intellectually dishonest, ignorant, or just pandering. Just like unions that promise "fairness" and flight schools that market pilot shortages and promote the romantic good life of the airline pilots.

Are you willing to give up income, so that more pilots can be hired to cover the same amount of flights under new rest rules? I'm sure you're not. Are you willing to sacrifice the income and careers of other pilots whose airlines cannot afford the increase costs? I know what you're going to say, "Well that evil management could just increase ticket prices." I've been hearing that for 20 years. Pilots are not management. We're pilots, labor. The successful airlines' management were never pilots for any airline.

As far as safety, I fired my first weapon when I was 6. I taught my 14 y.o. daughter how to shoot last weekend with that very same 22 rifle. I mowed my families lawn with gas-powered, foot-propelled lawnmower at that same age. I never wore a helmet riding a bicycle while growing up. My first job was at 14 at a driving range, driving an uncaged golf cart to shag balls. I find your argument blown out of proportion, and most likely biased. I'd like to see your reference to that CIA study, preferably a direct reference not a meta-reference.

 

[RT8VA]

Why does the current generation of pilots not understand the above concept?

STRIKE.

UAL/CAL ALPA are trying to win the battle through attrition and being defensive when the offensive is the only method.

Calling for release has to be done by the MEC's. Where is the strike vote? Where is the call with the NMB for self help? Where is the action to win?

There are so many required steps to this process before a strike can take place sounds like you haven't been through this before. There is no way at this stage of the game a cooling off period would be considered by the NMB considering both the short time we have been in mediated talks and the amount of sections that are still open. Wherever you work talk to your union reps about the RLA process and I am sure they can explain it in much more detail then I can. I have been through this process from beginning to strike day at my previous airline and I can tell you it is slow and painfull, the whole process is meant to keep the company running not help move along a contract.

 

[densoo]

HalinTexas,

You're right. My comments are over the top. I've been reading a lot of labor history stuff so I'm seeing it through a very narrow lens lately. As you said, the market pressures of cheap labor certainly preceded the 1900s or this country.

What labor is experiencing today is nothing akin to slavery but is simply an example of how powerful the market forces can be to achieve cheap labor, overriding basic morality in pursuit of it.

Regarding safety, cheaper labor costs are often achieved by compromising safe working conditions. Yes, children can be safe and responsible, but there are child labor laws that are there for good reason.

I have in fact taken a reduction in income by not flying beyond my assigned line beginning three years ago when the furlough letters were sent out. After all pilots were back on property this summer, I reduced my flying further out of frustration with negotiations. In the 70s this month, in the 60s next month. It is a meaningless gesture I suppose.

I heartily agree with "you're worth what you negotiate which is affected by the market."

Here's the CIA primary source about modern-day slavery in the U.S., from their website.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...ications/books-and-monographs/trafficking.pdf

 

[list2002]

End result of any finger wagging at Jeff by the arbitrator is nada. You can't have an impasse if you don't negotiate in the first place... so we can't be released to self-help if mgmnt refuses to counter. Our own union puts further pressure on the pilots by GIVING away profit sharing, then asks for more $$ to continue "talks." Nothing will be done till mgmnt is good and ready (gets their IT shaite together) and legally there is nothing we can do about it. Wear a red triangle pin to stick it to the man...
Frustrated as well, but as RT8VA said, that's the way it's set up. Mgmnt knows it, and as long as $$ is made, they can handle a few harsh words.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So when the union has no power to negoiate.

Why didn't the union just tell us the facts. We are powerless. We have no idea when we will get a deal. The deal we get is going to be at the generosity of management. When management finds a soft spot in their heart you might get a raise but don't hold your breath.

 

[list2002]

Well, we'll get a new contract when it makes the company $$. Right now the union has their hands full just enforcing the current contracts from being abused by mgmnt, and it is helping. But as far as being able to influence the timing on the next contract, RLA wise, we got our hands tied is how I see it.

 

[Captain X]

I don't know the answer but I'm nervous. Damn 3 yr old can negotiate better than this,

So I'm guessing you'll be submitting your resume' at the soonest possible opportunity then?