Universal Seniority List?

[FLYLOW22]

The industry will never do what is needed to fix seniority issues and "I got mine."

That kind of change comes from within but I don't see it today.

A few more years of industry marination might cook enough careers to garner interest though. We'll see.

 

[nyboilermaker]

All ATPs Grandfathered until 2015. Then seniority based on your date of ATP or Military Equivalent.

Start making the companies fight for the best employees like the rest of the planet's professions. Let the interview process weed out the 10K hour banner draggers.


NYB

 

[Scope out RJ's]

First off AWA was a failing airline and would be gone without the merger.

Um, yeah right. I guess you forgot the fact that Airways was 5 days from shutting the doors forever, that is, after their 2nd trip into chapter 11 bankruptcy!

So, the United and AMR furloughed pilots chose the wrong airline and Delta furloughed pilots chose the right on. They got it all figured out.

Maybe they just knew that working for a regional airline like us airways wasn't going to get them anywhere, kind of like the man you call, "wife."

I tell you why some pilots do not want DOH. Greed and sense of entitlement at the time. Just like PFT.

Says the gulfstream academy washout!

Advancement at all cost. does not matter who you step over. It's the American way and why this profession has gone downhill. All due to short term gains at the expense of others. That is why ALPA failed being A Union.

This statement all about sums up usapa!

Seniority. Drives everything in this job. Vacation, line-holder (or not), equipment, pay.A first year pilot does not get the same benefits as some one with 17 years. Why should that change? Because greed and sense of entitlement of pilots who think they deserve something fast. Just like PFT. Pilots are their own worst enemy.

M

Doosh:
Your man love's 17 years at us airways got him a nice juicy furlough! Now I know that's difficult for you to handle, him being over 20 years and only holding E190 f/o. But just think, in another 10 years, he'll almost make what a 3rd year southwest first officer makes!
But don't worry Marty, you're still my favorite doosh.
Now get back on your meds, and make that man of yours happy after he comes home from working so hard for so little!:laugh:

 

[PBRstreetgang]

It's simple national seniority for pay only purposes and company seniority for all other purposes.

 

[Chairman]

The only way this would ever work is if we all working for the Union and were contracted on jobs by the Union to the Airlines. It will never happen. We will see single pilot or UAV flying before this.

 

[acpilot]

Do you want more money to fly planes? Support legislation that excludes people without <requirement>. Personally, I'd make it an educational requirement...specifically a Master's degree in something real (read: non-aviation). While "education" really isn't necessary to fly airplanes, it would do wonders for compensation levels and public opinion. Hours are great, but I've tried to give simple VFR 135.293 check rides to +5,000hr airline pilots who couldn't make decisions without checklists or navigate on their own to save their lives. Hours alone aren’t reliable indicators of a pilot’s competence or confidence.

If you really think about it, meritocracies are where the money is. Doctors, lawyers, and engineers must be competent* to make money. They don’t need unions because their services are inherently valuable. They don’t need seniority lists because they take pride in their work and know that they can only move forward be being better than their competitors.

Until the ACTUAL value of pilot labor is increased (limited supply), wages will remain low and the vocation (it has the potential to be a profession) will not be respected.

*Intellectually competent, not “heavy machinery” competent.

 

[P38JLightning]

Another big, fat NO to a USL.

It is hoplessly flawed on so many levels it will never happen, nor should it. Yet there are some things we as a profession can work towards to address some of the core issues of an otherwise hopeless pipe dream.

Maybe migrate towards some sort of national (union?) hiring list. Companies can hire (or not hire) anyone they want, in any order they want, off that list, but all hires must come off the list.

Then prioritize the erosion of the first year (and in many cases first two year) defacto B-scales. Take any legacy's 3rd year pay, minus 10% or so and that should be first year pay, no less. It is 100% reasonable to start over in pay, but equally as unreasonable to make starting over all too often such a devistating, sometimes borderline poverty level endeavor.

The logic behind such bottom light pay scales is, of course, to save more bargaining capital for the more senior, etc. Yet in doing so, when everyone does it (and everyone does it) industry wide devistating blows to mobility at every airline actually hurt everyone's bargaining power in the long run because any time someone is under the gun for concessions, it becomes a "sign it or die" (financially) scenario. The no concession is too deep as long as it preserves YOUR seniority list because YOU can't afford to start over and that is all of our faults for tolerating (and even endorsing) these bottom light defacto B-scales.

Also there needs to be a strong grassroots movement, be it at the union level or whatever, to educate pilots on basic finances. Anyone, at any airline, at any seniority, who goes out and over-extends themselves buying their "Captain's toys" to such an extent that if they lose their current job they go bankrupt, even if there are many other jobs out there, is one more nail in our collective coffin. We can still have nice things, just not until we can TRULY afford them and the hard reality of that really means in almost every case being able to pay cash, period. We as a profession need to live below our means, buy way WAY less on credit and at all times have or be working on a viable plan B. Not to mention lower our divorce rate and generally horrid investment track records. Delay material gratification (and "other" gratification as well) and put off the toys and houses until we can afford them with 100% comfort even if we lost our current jobs.

Looking at our monthly incomes and saying "gee how much can I leverage through credit with this monthly nut" and then going out and doing it is directly responsibile for much of our own torture at the hands of management because they absolutely know the fiscal and psychological forces our collective behavior has in the negoating room. We need to take that away from them and if we don't, we will forever be their whipping boys in all but the most roaring of good times in the negoating room (and even that will be short lived, as we all know).

So a big, fat, hairy, steaming HECK NO to a USL (and ROFLMFAO @ a DOH USL!!!!!! LAWL!!!!!!! Gold Standard? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMFG!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!)

But there ARE things we can do to accomplish a lot of the supposed gains of a USL without any of the obvious non starters.

 

[xjhawk]

I think a USL would not do us any good at this point. I mean how would it be implemented? Impossible. I think there is a route to go that might be viable. Have ALPA take charge of sick time, health care programs, vacation and whatever else is easily transfered and that way when you do go from one airline to the next it is not back to square one for sick time, vacation and 401k. also having AlPA taking care of the 401k would have someone with your best interests in mind managing the account rather than the company. just an idea

 

[jonjuan]

also having AlPA taking care of the 401k would have someone with your best interests in mind managing the account rather than the company. just an idea

LOL. Why doesn't alpa simply start up its own airline? Can you imagine how smooth things would run? It truly would be the last interview one would ever have!

 

[Masterplan]

Still not answered is why it wouldn't work? Let's say I got my ATP Jan 2001 and made my way through the regionals and now fly at Airline A. Airline A has stagnated and is starting to ask for pay cuts so I jump ship and go to Airline B who is hiring and expanding. With this list I wouldn't be last on the list but would fit right between the two guys that got their ATP right before me and right after me. Along with that I get the same pay as a "9 year" pilot as well as the same ability to hold a line. Sure I would jump in front of some guys hired before me but I have been "flying longer" and should have more experience so that should be unfounded since that is how it works in the rest of the world right? I would also think that it would eliminate the need for a union since if a pilot felt under appreciated he could jump ship as well. If enough pilots left, the airline might have to rethink the requested cuts as well as make their pay commesurate what would be needed to keep their labor force. I just think that something like this would allow a pilot to move where they felt would benefit their bottom line the best with out the loss of a significant investment in time they have already made.

 

[Chairman]

Ok why would the company hire you with higher labor cost. Why would the other airline make you take a pay cut. The only way it would work would be that everyone was paid the same by the UNION for the same seat and same equipment. So in reality what your saying is I can go get my ATP then have an entirely different career until I can hold 747 captain then just show up at any airline and take my right full spot! Yeah no flaws in this idea at all.

 

[Masterplan]

Well you would have to be hired first and why couldn't the fact that you have no experience be held against you? As for labor costs they are the smallest expense an airline has and they are going to have to pay someone that money either way right? They would for sure have the option of hiring someone with less experience and therefore less costs. It would be up to them but if they did hire you that would be the baggage you came with...as well as the wealth of knowledge you bring with you.

 

[Masterplan]

duplicate

 

[GogglesPisano]

Every year this thread rears it's head. A NSL is a simplistic, unattainable wailing wall for those who have wound up at the wrong airline. We all new the rules getting in. Don't try to change them at half-time.

 

[regionalcap]

No way. Put the shoe on the other foot. You started at airline B. The airline has been very successful and you are looking at an upgrade soon. Now comes another pilot from airline A who jumps ahead of you at your own airline. He gets the upgrade before you do. NO THANKS.