Universal Seniority List?

[Masterplan]

I've watched my friends over the last ten years move from one company to another and most of the time get a raise and at the very least maintain their current salary and duties. Of course this was all outside the realm of aviation, but I have often wondered why we as pilots can't do the same. There really is no way to say one pilot is better than another based on pure skill and if large pilot groups had to have there seniority and pay increased by a subjective criteria and the opinion of their boss it would no doubt cause chaos in the pilot ranks and the HR office. That being said what would be the pro's and con's of having a seniority number based on the date you got your ATP and it could be interchanged between operators regardless of 135 vs 121 or regional vs major? For example American Eagle and Horizon FO's would not be stuck in their 10 year "seat lock" and could move to something like Skywest or Express Jet (just a hypothetical example) and slot right into the list based on that date and possibly upgrade faster. Or if you were a TWA captain and pre American takeover move to United or the like and slot in there. Would this not make pilot salaries and benefits more competitive? Would it not make the US Air and America West or United/Continental merger easier? Would it make companies provide a better work environment to keep their valued employees? I've always thought the most difficult aspect of choosing this career was that you had better make the right choice as to where you choose to work because your pay and schedule often revolve around the seniority that you have built. If you move laterally either for a better commute or more corporate safety that seniority is lost. Because of that many of us are handcuffed in the bed we have made. Please tell me why this would or would not work. I would like to hear all sides because I can't come up with all the possibilities.
Thanks

 

[St. Nic]

THree letters: DOH

 

[michael707767]

Two letters: N O

 

[bluebound]

Why must we have this same discussion again? It will never happen. Choose your company wisely, and don't stay with a bad company. Does your research before you go for an interview? An interview is not a one way street. You must make sure they are the one company you want to attach your seniority number to. If that company falls onto hard times, that's life, move on, and don't ask why you aren’t getting more because you feel like you deserve it. This is just like the 65'rs. You knew what the retirement age was long ago. You should have planned for the occasion (getting divorced three times is not my fault). The more responsibility we take on for ourselves the fewer decisions other people will make for us.

 

[General Lee]

Sorry, your career is just a roll of the dice. Nobody says you have to be an airline pilot, vs a corporate pilot, or fire fighting air tanker pilot. If you choose the wrong airline, too bad. You also don't have to work at a certain airline. It is a choice when you get and do that interview. A big ole NO to a Universal Seniority List.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cowboy75]

Sorry, your career is just a roll of the dice. Nobody says you have to be an airline pilot, vs a corporate pilot, or fire fighting air tanker pilot. If you choose the wrong airline, too bad. You also don't have to work at a certain airline. It is a choice when you get and do that interview. A big ole NO to a Universal Seniority List.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Too bad some people can't handle life in general. Take St Nic for example, he had everything planned out and ooops a bump in the road. Ended up at a failing airline, gets a second chance and tries revive these grand plans at the expense of fellow pilots.

Too bad, we are not going to let him get away with it.

DOHDOA

 

[St. Nic]

Thanks for highjacking another thread mr AWA pilot. I see the two red-tail career crushers are chiming in to. What a suprise

 

[MCDU]

First off AWA was a failing airline and would be gone without the merger.

So, the United and AMR furloughed pilots chose the wrong airline and Delta furloughed pilots chose the right on. They got it all figured out. I tell you why some pilots do not want DOH. Greed and sense of entitlement at the time. Just like PFT. Advancement at all cost. does not matter who you step over. It's the American way and why this profession has gone downhill. All due to short term gains at the expense of others. That is why ALPA failed being A Union.

Seniority. Drives everything in this job. Vacation, line-holder (or not), equipment, pay.A first year pilot does not get the same benefits as some one with 17 years. Why should that change? Because greed and sense of entitlement of pilots who think they deserve something fast. Just like PFT. Pilots are their own worst enemy.

M

 

[C180drvr]

It's naive and plain stupid to think anyone can 'choose' the 'right' airline. You won't know until after you retire. To think a pilot has some keen foresight to choose 'wisely' is ridiculous and the crux of our problems. Everyone tries for the best option at the time, but airlines change tremendously and the pilots shouldn't have to go down with the ship, starting their career over.

Our poor pay is in part attributable to the inability to transfer among companies, like most professionals. My friend who practices law, takes a bonus and raise anytime she moves to another firm. She questions why only pilots match pay 'cuts' and why pilots tend to focus on who makes 'less' as a barometer of our success - if carrier X pays less than us, I must be doing well - said by many pilots.

The industry is in the toilet and the professionalism and skill of our pilots is exploited by the airlines and cheap tickets. Seniority is a way to retain pilots without using pay as an incentive to retain good talent, like what's required for every other company. Employee retention - nonexistent concept in airlines. There must be a better way.

 

[MCDU]

By the way.
DOH is not arbitrary. It is recognized by just about every union as a fair and concrete method to establish seniority. C&R's, constructed in good faith, eliminate discrimination.
Just ask Atlas and Polar how their merger went under ALPA. Without the joint contract before the NWA and Delta would be a cluster as well.

M

 

[MCDU]

It's naive and plain stupid to think anyone can 'choose' the 'right' airline. You won't know until after you retire. To think a pilot has some keen foresight to choose 'wisely' is ridiculous and the crux of our problems. Everyone tries for the best option at the time, but airlines change tremendously and the pilots shouldn't have to go down with the ship, starting their career over.

Our poor pay is in part attributable to the inability to transfer among companies, like most professionals. My friend who practices law, takes a bonus and raise anytime she moves to another firm. She questions why only pilots match pay 'cuts' and why pilots tend to focus on who makes 'less' as a barometer of our success - if carrier X pays less than us, I must be doing well - said by many pilots.

The industry is in the toilet and the professionalism and skill of our pilots is exploited by the airlines and cheap tickets. Seniority is a way to retain pilots without using pay as an incentive to retain good talent, like what's required for every other company. Employee retention - nonexistent concept in airlines. There must be a better way.

Well said.

M

 

[av8tor76]

it's naive and plain stupid to think anyone can 'choose' the 'right' airline. You won't know until after you retire. To think a pilot has some keen foresight to choose 'wisely' is ridiculous and the crux of our problems. Everyone tries for the best option at the time, but airlines change tremendously and the pilots shouldn't have to go down with the ship, starting their career over.

Our poor pay is in part attributable to the inability to transfer among companies, like most professionals. My friend who practices law, takes a bonus and raise anytime she moves to another firm. She questions why only pilots match pay 'cuts' and why pilots tend to focus on who makes 'less' as a barometer of our success - if carrier x pays less than us, i must be doing well - said by many pilots.

The industry is in the toilet and the professionalism and skill of our pilots is exploited by the airlines and cheap tickets. Seniority is a way to retain pilots without using pay as an incentive to retain good talent, like what's required for every other company. Employee retention - nonexistent concept in airlines. There must be a better way.

+1 !

 

[dlzav8tr]

we at least need a minimum pay scale per aircraft type and seat. It is possible to make less than minimum wage if your duty time is near 16hrs and you are not getting paid for trip cancelation.

 

[Cowboy75]

Thanks for highjacking another thread mr AWA pilot. I see the two red-tail career crushers are chiming in to. What a suprise

I'm free to move about the boards as I please. Sorry, USAPs can't control the message here.

Sorry if that upsets you.

Tissue?

 

[AnimalTale]

First off AWA was a failing airline and would be gone without the merger.
M

I am so sorry to disagree with you. But USAir EAST was the FAILING airline. Now all of a sudden all the East guys are saying, it was an illusion. The company was doing fine but mngmt was fibbing about our doomed fate.

I was doing PHL redeyes during this fiasco. It was ugly and I do remember the "air" of desperation and sadness at the PHL airport. I prayed for you guys (East) to continue to operate, for I talked to a bunch of your commuters who were depressed and almost devastated with the looming shut down of USAir East.

I do not have a stake in this, the only thing I have is honest observation and nonemotional truth/remarks. Most of the EAST guys are BSing now or trying to position themselves for betterment.<---NOT FAIR AT ALL. Stop the koolaid drinking and accept your BINDING ARBITRATION.

On the other hand, AmericaWest just had started making small profits and shoring up their cash on hand to be able to purchase the East. The unfair part of this is that guys in the EAST with more seniority got stapled.

Sorry and CYA,

 

[FLYLOW22]

The industry will never do what is needed to fix seniority issues and "I got mine."

That kind of change comes from within but I don't see it today.

A few more years of industry marination might cook enough careers to garner interest though. We'll see.

 

[nyboilermaker]

All ATPs Grandfathered until 2015. Then seniority based on your date of ATP or Military Equivalent.

Start making the companies fight for the best employees like the rest of the planet's professions. Let the interview process weed out the 10K hour banner draggers.


NYB

 

[Scope out RJ's]

First off AWA was a failing airline and would be gone without the merger.

Um, yeah right. I guess you forgot the fact that Airways was 5 days from shutting the doors forever, that is, after their 2nd trip into chapter 11 bankruptcy!

So, the United and AMR furloughed pilots chose the wrong airline and Delta furloughed pilots chose the right on. They got it all figured out.

Maybe they just knew that working for a regional airline like us airways wasn't going to get them anywhere, kind of like the man you call, "wife."

I tell you why some pilots do not want DOH. Greed and sense of entitlement at the time. Just like PFT.

Says the gulfstream academy washout!

Advancement at all cost. does not matter who you step over. It's the American way and why this profession has gone downhill. All due to short term gains at the expense of others. That is why ALPA failed being A Union.

This statement all about sums up usapa!

Seniority. Drives everything in this job. Vacation, line-holder (or not), equipment, pay.A first year pilot does not get the same benefits as some one with 17 years. Why should that change? Because greed and sense of entitlement of pilots who think they deserve something fast. Just like PFT. Pilots are their own worst enemy.

M

Doosh:
Your man love's 17 years at us airways got him a nice juicy furlough! Now I know that's difficult for you to handle, him being over 20 years and only holding E190 f/o. But just think, in another 10 years, he'll almost make what a 3rd year southwest first officer makes!
But don't worry Marty, you're still my favorite doosh.
Now get back on your meds, and make that man of yours happy after he comes home from working so hard for so little!:laugh:

 

[PBRstreetgang]

It's simple national seniority for pay only purposes and company seniority for all other purposes.

 

[Chairman]

The only way this would ever work is if we all working for the Union and were contracted on jobs by the Union to the Airlines. It will never happen. We will see single pilot or UAV flying before this.

 

[acpilot]

Do you want more money to fly planes? Support legislation that excludes people without <requirement>. Personally, I'd make it an educational requirement...specifically a Master's degree in something real (read: non-aviation). While "education" really isn't necessary to fly airplanes, it would do wonders for compensation levels and public opinion. Hours are great, but I've tried to give simple VFR 135.293 check rides to +5,000hr airline pilots who couldn't make decisions without checklists or navigate on their own to save their lives. Hours alone aren’t reliable indicators of a pilot’s competence or confidence.

If you really think about it, meritocracies are where the money is. Doctors, lawyers, and engineers must be competent* to make money. They don’t need unions because their services are inherently valuable. They don’t need seniority lists because they take pride in their work and know that they can only move forward be being better than their competitors.

Until the ACTUAL value of pilot labor is increased (limited supply), wages will remain low and the vocation (it has the potential to be a profession) will not be respected.

*Intellectually competent, not “heavy machinery” competent.

 

[P38JLightning]

Another big, fat NO to a USL.

It is hoplessly flawed on so many levels it will never happen, nor should it. Yet there are some things we as a profession can work towards to address some of the core issues of an otherwise hopeless pipe dream.

Maybe migrate towards some sort of national (union?) hiring list. Companies can hire (or not hire) anyone they want, in any order they want, off that list, but all hires must come off the list.

Then prioritize the erosion of the first year (and in many cases first two year) defacto B-scales. Take any legacy's 3rd year pay, minus 10% or so and that should be first year pay, no less. It is 100% reasonable to start over in pay, but equally as unreasonable to make starting over all too often such a devistating, sometimes borderline poverty level endeavor.

The logic behind such bottom light pay scales is, of course, to save more bargaining capital for the more senior, etc. Yet in doing so, when everyone does it (and everyone does it) industry wide devistating blows to mobility at every airline actually hurt everyone's bargaining power in the long run because any time someone is under the gun for concessions, it becomes a "sign it or die" (financially) scenario. The no concession is too deep as long as it preserves YOUR seniority list because YOU can't afford to start over and that is all of our faults for tolerating (and even endorsing) these bottom light defacto B-scales.

Also there needs to be a strong grassroots movement, be it at the union level or whatever, to educate pilots on basic finances. Anyone, at any airline, at any seniority, who goes out and over-extends themselves buying their "Captain's toys" to such an extent that if they lose their current job they go bankrupt, even if there are many other jobs out there, is one more nail in our collective coffin. We can still have nice things, just not until we can TRULY afford them and the hard reality of that really means in almost every case being able to pay cash, period. We as a profession need to live below our means, buy way WAY less on credit and at all times have or be working on a viable plan B. Not to mention lower our divorce rate and generally horrid investment track records. Delay material gratification (and "other" gratification as well) and put off the toys and houses until we can afford them with 100% comfort even if we lost our current jobs.

Looking at our monthly incomes and saying "gee how much can I leverage through credit with this monthly nut" and then going out and doing it is directly responsibile for much of our own torture at the hands of management because they absolutely know the fiscal and psychological forces our collective behavior has in the negoating room. We need to take that away from them and if we don't, we will forever be their whipping boys in all but the most roaring of good times in the negoating room (and even that will be short lived, as we all know).

So a big, fat, hairy, steaming HECK NO to a USL (and ROFLMFAO @ a DOH USL!!!!!! LAWL!!!!!!! Gold Standard? BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! OMFG!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!)

But there ARE things we can do to accomplish a lot of the supposed gains of a USL without any of the obvious non starters.

 

[xjhawk]

I think a USL would not do us any good at this point. I mean how would it be implemented? Impossible. I think there is a route to go that might be viable. Have ALPA take charge of sick time, health care programs, vacation and whatever else is easily transfered and that way when you do go from one airline to the next it is not back to square one for sick time, vacation and 401k. also having AlPA taking care of the 401k would have someone with your best interests in mind managing the account rather than the company. just an idea

 

[jonjuan]

also having AlPA taking care of the 401k would have someone with your best interests in mind managing the account rather than the company. just an idea

LOL. Why doesn't alpa simply start up its own airline? Can you imagine how smooth things would run? It truly would be the last interview one would ever have!

 

[Masterplan]

Still not answered is why it wouldn't work? Let's say I got my ATP Jan 2001 and made my way through the regionals and now fly at Airline A. Airline A has stagnated and is starting to ask for pay cuts so I jump ship and go to Airline B who is hiring and expanding. With this list I wouldn't be last on the list but would fit right between the two guys that got their ATP right before me and right after me. Along with that I get the same pay as a "9 year" pilot as well as the same ability to hold a line. Sure I would jump in front of some guys hired before me but I have been "flying longer" and should have more experience so that should be unfounded since that is how it works in the rest of the world right? I would also think that it would eliminate the need for a union since if a pilot felt under appreciated he could jump ship as well. If enough pilots left, the airline might have to rethink the requested cuts as well as make their pay commesurate what would be needed to keep their labor force. I just think that something like this would allow a pilot to move where they felt would benefit their bottom line the best with out the loss of a significant investment in time they have already made.

 

[Chairman]

Ok why would the company hire you with higher labor cost. Why would the other airline make you take a pay cut. The only way it would work would be that everyone was paid the same by the UNION for the same seat and same equipment. So in reality what your saying is I can go get my ATP then have an entirely different career until I can hold 747 captain then just show up at any airline and take my right full spot! Yeah no flaws in this idea at all.

 

[Masterplan]

Well you would have to be hired first and why couldn't the fact that you have no experience be held against you? As for labor costs they are the smallest expense an airline has and they are going to have to pay someone that money either way right? They would for sure have the option of hiring someone with less experience and therefore less costs. It would be up to them but if they did hire you that would be the baggage you came with...as well as the wealth of knowledge you bring with you.

 

[Masterplan]

duplicate

 

[GogglesPisano]

Every year this thread rears it's head. A NSL is a simplistic, unattainable wailing wall for those who have wound up at the wrong airline. We all new the rules getting in. Don't try to change them at half-time.

 

[regionalcap]

No way. Put the shoe on the other foot. You started at airline B. The airline has been very successful and you are looking at an upgrade soon. Now comes another pilot from airline A who jumps ahead of you at your own airline. He gets the upgrade before you do. NO THANKS.