United losing 8 747s to creditors?

[Knob]

An instructor at the United Training center in DEN told me the creditors decided not to refinance 8 of the 747s for United because another carrier was willing to pay top dollar for these aircraft. He said these aircraft accounted for up to 40% of Uniteds international flying this summer. I'm just wondering if anyone else has heard this, or is this just a rumor?

 

[densoo]

CAL is reopening the Hawaii hub!

 

[mullet]

8 (747) equals 40% UAL international flying???

that seems odd?

UAL WIDEBODIES
747-400: 31
777: 52
767-300: 37
767-200: 2

 

[hbrow15]

didn't the bankruptsy judge already block creditors from taking airplanes before?

 

[J32driver]

didn't the bankruptsy judge already block creditors from taking airplanes before?

Yeah... but I think the creditors sued and won the right to repo the airplanes.

 

[Metro752]

As long as UAL doesn't buy any big buses, they'll be ok. . . .

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

CX is buying...

Which Company? Cathay.

 

[Whale Rider]

Those 8 Whales are heading for the conversion center to be modified into 747-400SF frieghters. Which company??? Only time will tell. hehehe.....

 

[G4G5]

SAN FRANCISCO (Dow Jones) -- Bankrupt UAL Corp., which operates United Airlines, said late Tuesday that it has "largely completed" restructuring its aircraft leases in a bid to save the company about $300 million a year.

That savings are part of a bigger push to trim $850 million a year in fleet costs, the Elk Grove, Ill.-based company said.

The agreement with what's called the public debt group covers 105 aircraft that were financed with public debt offerings and "resolves all potential claims associated with these aircraft," United said.

The bankruptcy court overseeing the turnaround of the airline must still approve the deal.

There is one more transaction to buy 14 aircraft that is still pending, UAL ( UALAQ) said.

"Coupled with the pending restructuring of the 14 aircraft whose junior notes we have purchased and whose senior notes we intend to purchase, this agreement would resolve all outstanding aircraft lease issues and provide substantial savings in aircraft fleet costs needed to support United's business plan," said UAL Chief Financial Officer Jake Brace in a statement.

 

[WatchYourElbows]

I guess you vultures don't get these planes either. So glad to see that there are about to be some new contestants in BK and that UAL is about to leave.






http://www.usaviation.com/forums/style_images/1/spacer.gif
Bloomberg News

August 10, 2005


United Edges Closer to Exiting Chapter 11

By BLOOMBERG NEWS
United Airlines said yesterday that it had finished reworking its aircraft lease agreements with creditors who hold debt backed by 105 planes, providing the carrier with $300 million in annual savings.

The airline's parent, the UAL Corporation, said total annual fleet costs had been cut by $850 million since the company filed for bankruptcy protection in December 2002. That excludes the airline's decision this month to buy 14 planes from creditors.

The company, based in Chicago, has said that wrapping up the talks was the largest remaining task before exiting bankruptcy protection.

Last week, UAL said it may not emerge from Chapter 11 until early next year because unsecured creditors wanted more time to review the reorganization plan. The agreement with the holders of debt backed by the planes would need to be approved by the bankruptcy court in Chicago.

In another airline bankruptcy, the judge overseeing the reorganization of US Airways, which plans to emerge from protection this year by combining with America West Airlines, ruled that the airline could send its reorganization plan to creditors for a vote.

The judge, Stephen Mitchell, in Alexandria, Va., scheduled a hearing for final approval on Sept. 15.

Under the plan, creditors owed $50,000 or less will receive cash payments of 10 percent of the allowed amounts. Creditors with unsecured claims will receive stock in the reorganized company. The hearing on final approval is scheduled to take place two days after shareholders in America West vote on whether to approve the planned merger.

 

[WatchYourElbows]

United Airlines' Parent Company Ends Wrangle Over Renegotiated Aircraft Leases


CHICAGO (AP) -- United Airlines' parent company said Tuesday it has resolved a contentious dispute over renegotiated aircraft leases involving about a quarter of its fleet, moving the nation's second-largest carrier a step closer to exiting bankruptcy.



UAL Corp. announced an agreement with a group of finance companies that settles the leases for 105 of its 455 jets, with a transaction pending on the remaining 14 aircraft.

The agreement, which United said was reached Saturday, ends a protracted fight over the aircraft and essentially removes the threat they could be repossessed. The newly lowered rates also will cut its costs by $300 million annually, pushing to about $850 million the total in reduced yearly fleet expenses since it began its bankruptcy overhaul in December 2002.

"This agreement, if approved by the bankruptcy court, overcomes one of the last remaining hurdles in United's restructuring and upcoming emergence from Chapter 11," said Jake Brace, chief financial officer for the Elk Grove Village, Ill.-based company.

The airline had reached an agreement in principle with the planes' lessors last summer but subsequently nixed the deal, citing ever-rising fuel prices and the need for further cost reductions due to difficult conditions in the airline industry.

A rebound in the market for leased jets made it tougher for United to secure the terms it wanted, and a May court ruling by the U.S. 7th Circuit Court of Appeals cleared the way for lessors for take back dozens of planes unless United paid its rent in full at the original lease rates. The airline returned four Boeing 767s to leasing companies soon afterward but was able to avoid losing more for the key summer travel season.

The company said it intends to file a motion requesting approval of the agreement in the next couple of weeks, with a hearing expected in early to mid-September.

Still left to resolve in bankruptcy are filing a long-delayed business plan and obtaining $2 billion to $2.5 billion in loans. In announcing the latest delay on Aug. 2, United said it expected to file a business plan in about a month and is now targeting late this year or early 2006 for leaving bankruptcy.

United has lost more than $2.5 billion this year and over $7 billion since entering bankruptcy. It hasn't made a profit in more than five years.

 

[Tomct]

Yeah...UA has only been in BK HOW LONG?

 

[AAflyer]

Do you want a medal for sitting in BK for 3 years? You still aren't out yet, and doing damage to everyone else in the process. ORD is now losing money for AA because of your ridiculous fares, and to add insult to injury only one these companies actually pays for operating out of ORD, do want to guess which airline it is?

Tilton takes more bonuses and you have your pension terminated, your pay rates on a comparitive level are below JetBlue's. You business plan still does not account for oil in the mid $50s, yet alone in the mid $60s, how do you propose getting around that? Let me guess, how about another round of paycuts.

You haven't inched anywhere near leaving BK, and articles by these airline anaylsts have about as much credibility as Ms Cleo.

AA
Disclaimer: More upset with the managment team (can actually call them that) than anything else.

 

[Mugs]

So if UAL had simply liqidated, you guys at AA could have gone right back to the old way of doing business, right? Eventually, you would have wound up competeing against LCC type competition at ORD just like everywhere else. A UAL liquidation would have given you a temporary reprieve, but eventually all the problems you face today would be back on the front doorstep. To think otherwise is denying the unfortunate realities for the future of this industry.

 

[AAflyer]

Where in my post did I say ANYTHING about you liquidating? If you are gonna bark back atleast be accurate in what I said.

I am not worried about UAL liquidating, I am worried you will take more concessions, and stay in BK another few years putting more pressure on the carriers out of BK to follow suit. What Tilton has done to UAL and the BK code is the biggest corporate disgrace I have seen next to Enron.

AA

 

[WatchYourElbows]

You better get used to it. Looks like NW and DL are about to join the BK team.

 

[Mugs]

Where in my post did I say ANYTHING about you liquidating? If you are gonna bark back atleast be accurate in what I said.

I am not worried about UAL liquidating, I am worried you will take more concessions, and stay in BK another few years putting more pressure on the carriers out of BK to follow suit. What Tilton has done to UAL and the BK code is the biggest corporate disgrace I have seen next to Enron.

AA

Speaking of barking, did I say that you said that? I said so, if.... which was meant to create a hypothetical situation in order to make a point. I'll try to word things more carefully when I respond to your posts next time so you don't feel offended or barked at.

As for Tilton, he is really doing the dirty work that the capital markets are demanding. With no exit financing from the capital markets, the show is over. The investment banks have continuously given strong indications of what they are looking for to entertain the possibility of engaging. Realistically, like it or not, Tilton hasn't had much choice in the matter because he doesn't control the banks. NWA and DAL may soon find the capital markets re-writing their contracts as well. I hope you can stay immune to it, but I doubt it in the long run.

 

[Chappysan]

AA Flyer,

>>doing damage to everyone else in the process. ORD is now losing money for AA<<

AA only exists at ORD b/c they moved in during the UAL pilot's strike of '85. So excuse us if your damages don't really concern us. As for the race to the bottom, with such a distinguished history I'm sure we have nothing to fear from the concessions your pilot group will ink in BK.

 

[Dan Roman]

Wow, how quickly we forget. For the record, AA is the one who introduced to the industry the B scale (I've got mine I don't care about you) and UAL stood up to management and basicly eliminated it from our industry.
Nothing personal guys, but an AA pilot complaining about UAL is pretty hypocritical.

 

[AAflyer]

Wrong,

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.

Amazing ALPA pilot do not remember ALPA history, go ahead and blame APA.
I love that excuse," let's see how far you sink in BK." Well ok, how about we undercut your wages when we go into BK.

You UAL guys are something else, walking around with your nose in the air after your 2000 contract, looking down on everybody else. Telling the old TWA guys their airline should go out of business because they were dragging down the industry, now all types of pathetic excuses of where your contract is, and lastely UAL guys throwing out the "B scale comment" when they actually strarted it with Blue Skies.

And some of your guys have the b@lls to tell JetBlue pilots they can't sit on your jumpseat because they are destroying the industry. Talk about calling the kettle black.

AA

 

[B6Driver]

I think we all should admit that pilots do not support one another and will gladly stab one another in the back if the chance arises to gain some ground.

Cold and sad but the truth just the same!

 

[skykid]

I think we all should admit that pilots do not support one another and will gladly stab one another in the back if the chance arises to gain some ground.

Cold and sad but the truth just the same!

Noted, and maybe the truth for some. Just look at the post directly above yours - change a few of the words and its like something a 5th grader would write about someone they don't like in PE class. Broad generalizations are a sign of poor understanding.

 

[Mugs]

Wrong,

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.

Amazing ALPA pilot do not remember ALPA history, go ahead and blame APA.
I love that excuse," let's see how far you sink in BK." Well ok, how about we undercut your wages when we go into BK.

You UAL guys are something else, walking around with your nose in the air after your 2000 contract, looking down on everybody else. Telling the old TWA guys their airline should go out of business because they were dragging down the industry, now all types of pathetic excuses of where your contract is, and lastely UAL guys throwing out the "B scale comment" when they actually strarted it with Blue Skies.

And some of your guys have the b@lls to tell JetBlue pilots they can't sit on your jumpseat because they are destroying the industry. Talk about calling the kettle black.

AA

Ahhh, let's throw arrogance around. How about the sickout that you guys brilliantly organized in part over the company E-mail system back in '98? That kind of hot-headed arrogance got APA fined an astounding $45 million. Are you really going to lecture us about the treatment of TWA guys??? Somehow, we seem to get quite a bit less heat from TWA guys about how we treated them vs. how you guys treated them. I read enough of that drama right here on this board when it was happening. Besides, do you really expect me to believe that an AA pilot never commented negatively about TWA during their years of struggle? I read enough nasty comments from you guys about Eagle pilots to know better.

I agree with your point about Blue Skies though. Your analysis has some validity. However, your B-scale response to BS went several steps further. Far enough to help generate a strike on this end. It kind of reminds me of what Jetblue is doing now with the E170 actually. Except for the fact that your B-scale was designed with no end in sight.

 

[AAflyer]

Noted, and maybe the truth for some. Just look at the post directly above yours - change a few of the words and its like something a 5th grader would write about someone they don't like in PE class. Broad generalizations are a sign of poor understanding.

Broad generalizations of what, whe way I have been treated by some at UAL? What about how the Blue Skies agreement came about, when it started and the intent of the letter. Yes, Crandall took the ball and ran with it, and the pilots at AA at the time agreed, but it gets a little old to continually hear all the evils came from AA and APA.

Now if you are talking about BK, I concede, I have not been through it. However it seems like a broad generalization that you can't do anything about what is going on, and if you truly can't what is the purpose of having a union.

As for the comments to the JB pilots from some your New York based captains, it came from horses mouth.

To your comment on brushing in broad strokes, this a message board and most posts are broad in scope. As to my maturity, your comment on me acting like a 5th grader is akin to thowing stones back at the kid yelling at you in PE. So for that I apoligize to the initial tone of my statements.

This is a frustrating time for all involved, I am not diminishing what you and your co-workers have been through, and continue to go through currently. I am truly sorry for that. However the professionlism some UAL employees have shown to others lately has something to be desired.

As I mentioned in my original post I am most disgusted with the actions of Glen Tilton.

AA

 

[spinup]

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.

aaflyer, settle down son... I will grant you, Blue Skies was a largely concessionary contract and that it was harmful to the industry, but your facts are waaaay of the mark with the B-scale assertion. The B-scale is an American Airlines invention that the United Airlines pilots bravely held the line on. It’s disgusting that someone like you would minimize their fight.



"In 1983, the APA's leaders agreed to a contract that would pay newly hired pilots approximately one-half the going rate. Deregulation had rekindled the traditional rivalry between United and American, historically the two biggest airlines in the industry. To leaders of the APA, Blue skies seemed like naked aggression against their carrier, amply justifying a response. Crandall sweetened the deal by granting a small pay raise (in lieu of one that APA had given back earlier), agreed not to lay off any pilots for the life of the contract, promised to recall 500 furloughed pilots by 1986, and established a profit-sharing plan. So in effect, this first major-airline B-scale bribed American's 3,400 pilots with some middling benefits, but it boiled down to selling their patrimony on faith for a mess of Crandall's pottage."

-Flying the Line Volume II, George E. Hopkins.


Sorry to be the one to inform you, but American pilots have done their share of harm.

 

[AAflyer]

Ahhh, let's throw arrogance around. How about the sickout that you guys brilliantly organized in part over the company E-mail system back in '98? That kind of hot-headed arrogance got APA fined an astounding $45 million. Are you really going to lecture us about the treatment of TWA guys??? Somehow, we seem to get quite a bit less heat from TWA guys about how we treated them vs. how you guys treated them. I read enough of that drama right here on this board when it was happening. Besides, do you really expect me to believe that an AA pilot never commented negatively about TWA during their years of struggle? I read enough nasty comments from you guys about Eagle pilots to know better.

I agree with your point about Blue Skies though. Your analysis has some validity. However, your B-scale response to BS went several steps further. Far enough to help generate a strike on this end. It kind of reminds me of what Jetblue is doing now with the E170 actually. Except for the fact that your B-scale was designed with no end in sight.

The way the pilots at TWA were treated by APA was unaccpetable, but where many at UAL wanted stick the USairways boys was not much different. Check the facts on why APA struck in the late 90s, it was for a very different reason, and was not the brightest thing either. Then again neither was the UAL pilots summer sick/slow down in 2000.

Thank you for acknowledging "Blue Skies", it seems to slip under the radar screens often, and "NO" I am not proud of what happened here in the past. I was not hired at the time, yet it is embarrasing to the damage it caused.

Skykid was right in one regard, the messages we post are broad in general and can leave a lot out of what the author wants to convey. My comments were rather direct and some of it without merit. I see where this has started to go and realize that we need to band together now more than ever, that the infighting will only defeat us. So please forgive me for allowing my emotional outburst to divide us anymore.

Very frustrated,

AA

 

[spinup]

I see where this hs started to go and realize that we need to band together now more than ever, that the infighting will only defeat us. So please forgive me for allowing my emotional outburst to divide us anymore.

The number one most accurate post to date on this board!!!!

 

[gobigred1]

As a regional pilot I may have no business posting on this thread and feel free to say so but I have always hated all the animosity between the different pilot groups. Why does there have to be some much finger pointing? Well you guys at AA did this. Oh yeah, well you guys at UAL did this. Oh and by the way, did you see what NWA did?

We as pilots are all the same no matter what company we work for. In my humble opinion it should be us as pilots against all companies not UAL vs AA vs DL and so forth. The way I see it, every airline is the same. When push comes to shove every company is more then happy to screw their employees when their back is against the wall. I'd bet a million dollars (wait, I make less than a McDonalds kid) that if the mighty SWA started having problems they would be more then happy to beat down their employees too.

As far as the way certain airlines treat other jumpseaters and such, as a commuter I run into my share of a**holes at ALL airlines. Don't judge an airline by a few rotten apples.

Hope you guys don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents. Maybe I am showing my ignorance or youth but why dwell on things that happened 5, 10 or even 20 years ago? We as a pilot GROUP need to concentrate on today and the future to protect what we (especially the more senior guys) have worked so hard to get and to make sure I have a major job to go to someday!!

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

As a regional pilot I may have no business posting on this thread and feel free to say so but I have always hated all the animosity between the different pilot groups. Why does there have to be some much finger pointing? Well you guys at AA did this. Oh yeah, well you guys at UAL did this. Oh and by the way, did you see what NWA did?

We as pilots are all the same no matter what company we work for. In my humble opinion it should be us as pilots against all companies not UAL vs AA vs DL and so forth. The way I see it, every airline is the same. When push comes to shove every company is more then happy to screw their employees when their back is against the wall. I'd bet a million dollars (wait, I make less than a McDonalds kid) that if the mighty SWA started having problems they would be more then happy to beat down their employees too.

As far as the way certain airlines treat other jumpseaters and such, as a commuter I run into my share of a**holes at ALL airlines. Don't judge an airline by a few rotten apples.

Hope you guys don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents. Maybe I am showing my ignorance or youth but why dwell on things that happened 5, 10 or even 20 years ago? We as a pilot GROUP need to concentrate on today and the future to protect what we (especially the more senior guys) have worked so hard to get and to make sure I have a major job to go to someday!!

Good post but in reality, us little guys on the bottom love to see the giants beat each other up and their egos damaged. United is dead and will not recover from BR. Delta and NWA will follow but will survive in a much humbled capacity. As a United captain once told me when I was jumpseating, "Son, why don't you get a job with a real Airline?" What a jerk.

 

[Dan Roman]

Let me clarify my point about AA folks attacking UAL folks as hypocritical. That was a good point about the blue skies agreement, I forgot about that. First off I don't work for UAL or AA. It just seems pretty self defeating to me to go around pointing fingers like one airline is "right" and one airline is "wrong". Every airline has had it's good moments and bad. In this industry you simply can't go around pointing fingers with out being hypocritical no matter who you work for.
Everybody is trying to do what they can to survive given their circumstances. It seems like a lot of people are taking satisfaction in past arrogances coming back to bite airlines. I guess that's human nature but I think it's the height of arrogance to think "your" airline should survive and someone else's should "go away". We all work in a very volatile and risky industry. AMR is not better than UAL, Delta is not better than Jet Blue, SWA is not better than AirTran, etc. etc.
Pan Am and TWA were the top dogs of the 1960's, The most profitable airline in 1979 was Braniff. USAir and Piedmont were two of the best airlines of the 1980's. Look at UAL in the 90's vs. now.
We're all just trying to survive and we are ALL very vulnurable. The less vunerable you think you are now the more likely your going to get bitten in the future.