United losing 8 747s to creditors?

[B6Driver]

I think we all should admit that pilots do not support one another and will gladly stab one another in the back if the chance arises to gain some ground.

Cold and sad but the truth just the same!

 

[skykid]

I think we all should admit that pilots do not support one another and will gladly stab one another in the back if the chance arises to gain some ground.

Cold and sad but the truth just the same!

Noted, and maybe the truth for some. Just look at the post directly above yours - change a few of the words and its like something a 5th grader would write about someone they don't like in PE class. Broad generalizations are a sign of poor understanding.

 

[Mugs]

Wrong,

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.

Amazing ALPA pilot do not remember ALPA history, go ahead and blame APA.
I love that excuse," let's see how far you sink in BK." Well ok, how about we undercut your wages when we go into BK.

You UAL guys are something else, walking around with your nose in the air after your 2000 contract, looking down on everybody else. Telling the old TWA guys their airline should go out of business because they were dragging down the industry, now all types of pathetic excuses of where your contract is, and lastely UAL guys throwing out the "B scale comment" when they actually strarted it with Blue Skies.

And some of your guys have the b@lls to tell JetBlue pilots they can't sit on your jumpseat because they are destroying the industry. Talk about calling the kettle black.

AA

Ahhh, let's throw arrogance around. How about the sickout that you guys brilliantly organized in part over the company E-mail system back in '98? That kind of hot-headed arrogance got APA fined an astounding $45 million. Are you really going to lecture us about the treatment of TWA guys??? Somehow, we seem to get quite a bit less heat from TWA guys about how we treated them vs. how you guys treated them. I read enough of that drama right here on this board when it was happening. Besides, do you really expect me to believe that an AA pilot never commented negatively about TWA during their years of struggle? I read enough nasty comments from you guys about Eagle pilots to know better.

I agree with your point about Blue Skies though. Your analysis has some validity. However, your B-scale response to BS went several steps further. Far enough to help generate a strike on this end. It kind of reminds me of what Jetblue is doing now with the E170 actually. Except for the fact that your B-scale was designed with no end in sight.

 

[AAflyer]

Noted, and maybe the truth for some. Just look at the post directly above yours - change a few of the words and its like something a 5th grader would write about someone they don't like in PE class. Broad generalizations are a sign of poor understanding.

Broad generalizations of what, whe way I have been treated by some at UAL? What about how the Blue Skies agreement came about, when it started and the intent of the letter. Yes, Crandall took the ball and ran with it, and the pilots at AA at the time agreed, but it gets a little old to continually hear all the evils came from AA and APA.

Now if you are talking about BK, I concede, I have not been through it. However it seems like a broad generalization that you can't do anything about what is going on, and if you truly can't what is the purpose of having a union.

As for the comments to the JB pilots from some your New York based captains, it came from horses mouth.

To your comment on brushing in broad strokes, this a message board and most posts are broad in scope. As to my maturity, your comment on me acting like a 5th grader is akin to thowing stones back at the kid yelling at you in PE. So for that I apoligize to the initial tone of my statements.

This is a frustrating time for all involved, I am not diminishing what you and your co-workers have been through, and continue to go through currently. I am truly sorry for that. However the professionlism some UAL employees have shown to others lately has something to be desired.

As I mentioned in my original post I am most disgusted with the actions of Glen Tilton.

AA

 

[spinup]

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.

aaflyer, settle down son... I will grant you, Blue Skies was a largely concessionary contract and that it was harmful to the industry, but your facts are waaaay of the mark with the B-scale assertion. The B-scale is an American Airlines invention that the United Airlines pilots bravely held the line on. It’s disgusting that someone like you would minimize their fight.



"In 1983, the APA's leaders agreed to a contract that would pay newly hired pilots approximately one-half the going rate. Deregulation had rekindled the traditional rivalry between United and American, historically the two biggest airlines in the industry. To leaders of the APA, Blue skies seemed like naked aggression against their carrier, amply justifying a response. Crandall sweetened the deal by granting a small pay raise (in lieu of one that APA had given back earlier), agreed not to lay off any pilots for the life of the contract, promised to recall 500 furloughed pilots by 1986, and established a profit-sharing plan. So in effect, this first major-airline B-scale bribed American's 3,400 pilots with some middling benefits, but it boiled down to selling their patrimony on faith for a mess of Crandall's pottage."

-Flying the Line Volume II, George E. Hopkins.


Sorry to be the one to inform you, but American pilots have done their share of harm.

 

[AAflyer]

Ahhh, let's throw arrogance around. How about the sickout that you guys brilliantly organized in part over the company E-mail system back in '98? That kind of hot-headed arrogance got APA fined an astounding $45 million. Are you really going to lecture us about the treatment of TWA guys??? Somehow, we seem to get quite a bit less heat from TWA guys about how we treated them vs. how you guys treated them. I read enough of that drama right here on this board when it was happening. Besides, do you really expect me to believe that an AA pilot never commented negatively about TWA during their years of struggle? I read enough nasty comments from you guys about Eagle pilots to know better.

I agree with your point about Blue Skies though. Your analysis has some validity. However, your B-scale response to BS went several steps further. Far enough to help generate a strike on this end. It kind of reminds me of what Jetblue is doing now with the E170 actually. Except for the fact that your B-scale was designed with no end in sight.

The way the pilots at TWA were treated by APA was unaccpetable, but where many at UAL wanted stick the USairways boys was not much different. Check the facts on why APA struck in the late 90s, it was for a very different reason, and was not the brightest thing either. Then again neither was the UAL pilots summer sick/slow down in 2000.

Thank you for acknowledging "Blue Skies", it seems to slip under the radar screens often, and "NO" I am not proud of what happened here in the past. I was not hired at the time, yet it is embarrasing to the damage it caused.

Skykid was right in one regard, the messages we post are broad in general and can leave a lot out of what the author wants to convey. My comments were rather direct and some of it without merit. I see where this has started to go and realize that we need to band together now more than ever, that the infighting will only defeat us. So please forgive me for allowing my emotional outburst to divide us anymore.

Very frustrated,

AA

 

[spinup]

I see where this hs started to go and realize that we need to band together now more than ever, that the infighting will only defeat us. So please forgive me for allowing my emotional outburst to divide us anymore.

The number one most accurate post to date on this board!!!!

 

[gobigred1]

As a regional pilot I may have no business posting on this thread and feel free to say so but I have always hated all the animosity between the different pilot groups. Why does there have to be some much finger pointing? Well you guys at AA did this. Oh yeah, well you guys at UAL did this. Oh and by the way, did you see what NWA did?

We as pilots are all the same no matter what company we work for. In my humble opinion it should be us as pilots against all companies not UAL vs AA vs DL and so forth. The way I see it, every airline is the same. When push comes to shove every company is more then happy to screw their employees when their back is against the wall. I'd bet a million dollars (wait, I make less than a McDonalds kid) that if the mighty SWA started having problems they would be more then happy to beat down their employees too.

As far as the way certain airlines treat other jumpseaters and such, as a commuter I run into my share of a**holes at ALL airlines. Don't judge an airline by a few rotten apples.

Hope you guys don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents. Maybe I am showing my ignorance or youth but why dwell on things that happened 5, 10 or even 20 years ago? We as a pilot GROUP need to concentrate on today and the future to protect what we (especially the more senior guys) have worked so hard to get and to make sure I have a major job to go to someday!!

 

[Chuck Yogourt]

As a regional pilot I may have no business posting on this thread and feel free to say so but I have always hated all the animosity between the different pilot groups. Why does there have to be some much finger pointing? Well you guys at AA did this. Oh yeah, well you guys at UAL did this. Oh and by the way, did you see what NWA did?

We as pilots are all the same no matter what company we work for. In my humble opinion it should be us as pilots against all companies not UAL vs AA vs DL and so forth. The way I see it, every airline is the same. When push comes to shove every company is more then happy to screw their employees when their back is against the wall. I'd bet a million dollars (wait, I make less than a McDonalds kid) that if the mighty SWA started having problems they would be more then happy to beat down their employees too.

As far as the way certain airlines treat other jumpseaters and such, as a commuter I run into my share of a**holes at ALL airlines. Don't judge an airline by a few rotten apples.

Hope you guys don't mind me throwing in my 2 cents. Maybe I am showing my ignorance or youth but why dwell on things that happened 5, 10 or even 20 years ago? We as a pilot GROUP need to concentrate on today and the future to protect what we (especially the more senior guys) have worked so hard to get and to make sure I have a major job to go to someday!!

Good post but in reality, us little guys on the bottom love to see the giants beat each other up and their egos damaged. United is dead and will not recover from BR. Delta and NWA will follow but will survive in a much humbled capacity. As a United captain once told me when I was jumpseating, "Son, why don't you get a job with a real Airline?" What a jerk.

 

[Dan Roman]

Let me clarify my point about AA folks attacking UAL folks as hypocritical. That was a good point about the blue skies agreement, I forgot about that. First off I don't work for UAL or AA. It just seems pretty self defeating to me to go around pointing fingers like one airline is "right" and one airline is "wrong". Every airline has had it's good moments and bad. In this industry you simply can't go around pointing fingers with out being hypocritical no matter who you work for.
Everybody is trying to do what they can to survive given their circumstances. It seems like a lot of people are taking satisfaction in past arrogances coming back to bite airlines. I guess that's human nature but I think it's the height of arrogance to think "your" airline should survive and someone else's should "go away". We all work in a very volatile and risky industry. AMR is not better than UAL, Delta is not better than Jet Blue, SWA is not better than AirTran, etc. etc.
Pan Am and TWA were the top dogs of the 1960's, The most profitable airline in 1979 was Braniff. USAir and Piedmont were two of the best airlines of the 1980's. Look at UAL in the 90's vs. now.
We're all just trying to survive and we are ALL very vulnurable. The less vunerable you think you are now the more likely your going to get bitten in the future.

 

[skykid]

Roman, that is an excellent post, and for people who are actually capable of looking at a situation from someone elses perspective the only way to see the current situation.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

....It seems like a lot of people are taking satisfaction in past arrogances coming back to bite airlines

....Pan Am and TWA were the top dogs of the 1960's, The most profitable airline in 1979 was Braniff. USAir and Piedmont were two of the best airlines of the 1980's.....

Dan Roman has it right.

Non of us are humble enough, including me. To forget history makes us too arrogant.

IMHO, it is foolish to think your company is breaking the mold of boom and bust in the airline biz unless you have an ironclad reason. Haven't heard one yet. Every year is a new opportunity for another company to come in and beat you at your own game.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

The guys on this forum that wish United to die and hope all the United employee's fall by the wayside, have been SNORTING WAY TOO MUCH BOLIVIAN NASAL DUST!


Good luck to UAL I hope thing work out for us all!

"We been made Rico"

 

[EAP]

Wrong,

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.
AA

Negative.

The AA "B" scale was the first of it's kind ever when Crandall promised to double the airline size in exchange for it. In at least one deregulation tell all book, some AA captains were quoted (this is clearly here-say) that "anyone stupid enough to work for us at these wages deserves them." To Crandal's credit, he did double the airline size though, at least he was honest - as was not the case with Dick Ferris. When UAL pilots went along with the new B scale, they did so after "B" scale already was in operation elesewhere and only for a defined period of time with an expiration, while the AA B scale was a "forever and ever" deal as "originally written".

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Wrong,

How easy it is for people to talk with out understanding history! The UAL guys started the B scale process with the Blue Skies Agreement and Dicky Ferris back in the early 80s.

Amazing ALPA pilot do not remember ALPA history, go ahead and blame APA.
I love that excuse," let's see how far you sink in BK." Well ok, how about we undercut your wages when we go into BK.

You UAL guys are something else, walking around with your nose in the air after your 2000 contract, looking down on everybody else. Telling the old TWA guys their airline should go out of business because they were dragging down the industry, now all types of pathetic excuses of where your contract is, and lastely UAL guys throwing out the "B scale comment" when they actually strarted it with Blue Skies.

And some of your guys have the b@lls to tell JetBlue pilots they can't sit on your jumpseat because they are destroying the industry. Talk about calling the kettle black.

AA

AA kiddie,

You are way off base, AA started the B scale. Go back to your text books kid. Sorry UAL turned you down, and sorry you had to hold all that envy in with our C2000 rates...Somebody had to raise the bar, and it sure wasn't the "Friends Of Cecil"

Did you buy a house from ol' Cecil's wife? Just how much time do you have in the Stearman? One whole HOUR! wow!

 

[skykid]

From AAFlyer

ORD is now losing money for AA because of your ridiculous fares, and to add insult to injury only one these companies actually pays for operating out of ORD, do want to guess which airline it is?

From bizjournal.com



United Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and US Airways have all posted increases of $5 to $10 each day on most domestic flights, citing jet fuel expenses. Northwest Airlines and American Airlines said Thursday night only that they were studying the increases. Typically such increases are rescinded on Monday or Tuesday if they are not widely matched by the end of the weekend.