rudderdog said:
Condor....
Just got back from a trip and saw the last few posts. Thanks for the apology. Accepted, although it should be your misinformed AA buddy apologizing to you for the crap he's been feeding you.
First off, it is a total windfall, if not criminal, that the 2000 hires are still working and TWA captains from 88 are being furloughed. Remember, this was NOT like PanAm/Delta. The intent was much different as noted by, among other things, the big party slogan "Two great airlines, One great furture", given by AA. You cannot compare this to the USAirways guys being furloughed either. This is about an unfair integration. Just because a company is ACQUIRED doesn't equate to loss of seniority. Where in the hell did you get this? Ever heard of Air Canada (I think that was the one)??? I do agree with you somewhat that the financially stronger carrier should have an advantage. Rightful seniority is more about being a certain percentage on the seniority list before AND after the integration, and quality of life not changing for the worse. These guys at AA gained THOUSANDS of numbers (but it's not really about numbers) and up to 20% of seniority OVERNIGHT. And as a result were not furloughed at all or much later than if not for TWA. That is a FACT.
You keep talking about debt. Again, ever heard of Worldspan? Ask you AA buddy and get back to me on that one. Ya know, there were other things like new aircraft, established routes, facilities, trained employees, San Juan (see effect of ticket prices), etc... AA chose which debt not to take.
Sinking ship??.....Not after AA chose which debt not to take. Then again, there's not many ships out there not sinking today.
As for the aquisition.....Gee, this was more like a merger though, don't ya think? Ya know, they all look very similiar in complicated purchases. How much experience in "Corporate America" did you say you had?
Also, ask your AA buddy when the aquisition actually took place. Then ask him when the APA decided to give us our "AA Date-of-hire". Then ask him why he did this to us. Any windfall there that you can see? Get back to me on that one too.
Do you really want to compare us to Reno? They got stapled, right? Or was it date-of-hire? What did you say? It's the same?
Why don't you compare us to AirCal instead?
You said,"Who cares if it's AA or TWA aircraft" (that's still flying). EXACTLY!!!
You are correct, however, the APA sure had a problem with this and it was one of their main excuses for their actions. Now, it doesn't really matter to them since the total opposite happened. We all know that eventually all airplanes will be replaced someday and for different reasons.
Why did you say my career was stolen by ALPA? Stolen and given to whom?
Rubberdog, I've pulld out of this discussion for the simple reason that I don't feel qualified enough to discuss it in detail.
I will say that my acquaintances at AA are men that I hold in high esteem, and I doubt they would feed me any "crap". Likewise, there are men of the same caliber at TWA as I'm sure you know. What we have here is the classic merger symptoms where both sided feel they were treated unfairly on a number of issues. Regardless of what you deem as "facts", there will always be those who do not view them as "facts" but rather opinions.
You say that it is "criminal" that '00 hires are still working at AA while '88 guys are getting furloughed - I must point out that's an opinion, not fact. The very fact you used the word "criminal" shows me that you are exaggerating and emotionally stretching the truth. Which is understandable, if you were affected, but it is nonetheless an opinion. I do know that some at AA think it is "criminal" that the TWA pilots were not all placed at the bottom, although I never shared that view. They are also expressing opinions, not facts.
Whether the integration is fair or not - that will be decided in a court of law. The pilots can debate it till the cows come home.... but the judge's verdict will prevail.
My STL-based AA friends are quick to point out that they bear the brunt of the TWA pilots' wrath, even though they had nothing to do with the integration, merger, etc. That is lame and immature, if it's going on. If the TWA pilots want to wage a war, they should direct it to the APA or ALPA leaders that put the whole thing together, not the rank and file line pilot who had nothing to do with it.
I used the USAir analogy simply because USAir itself is a combination of merged/acquired airlines. Therefore, you could make the argument that those who are not furloughed yet may still be working because others lost or gained seniority through a previous merger, and were furloughed sooner than expected. Same deal with AA/TWA. That is an unfortunate fact of mergers, and that is why I personally feel that the '88 TWA hires are roughly in the same boat as the '88 USAir hires.
Finally, I said that ALPA "stole your career" because with all the thousands in dues you paid them, they dissed you in the merger and didn't put up a fight for what you would deem a better deal. Total breach of duty and misrepresentation.
Rubberdog, opininons will be opinions... The TWA pilots are doing the only thing they can, suing the APA/ALPA/AA for a chance at better seniority. The AA pilots are trying to prevent that from happening because they think the deal was more than fair, due to the financial position TWA was in (REGARDLESS of debt AA chose to take.) In their eyes, the TWA pilots are attempting to steal the AA pilots' rightful seniority. As I mentioned before, these are all issues that are PRESENT IN EVERY AIRLINE MERGER IN HISTORY!!
I wish you the best, as I do to all furloughed pilots regardless of why they were furloughed, or what airline they came from.
