United furloughs

[theflyingcondor]

You guys are so full of it! There are hundreds of very junior AA pilots benefiting from "the windfall" at the expense of the TWA pilots. This was not PanAm or Branniff. They never had parties with hats and banners and things saying, "Two great airlines, One great future". The intent and plan was totally different. You know it.

9-11 was not the reason for the horrible integeration (that was probably greed and arrogance along with trying to protect and advance your pilots). But, it did accelerate the process for obvious reasons benefiting the junior AA pilots.

It's easy for you all to say ,"the integration must have been fair because noone is happy". That's a bunch of crap too. I do believe not many at AA are happy, however, that line is just used to make it appear fair. You ALL would have been much worse off if not for the TWA deal.

Rubberdog:

What "windfall" are you describing? There are hundreds of AA pilots on furlough as well. Using your logic, USAir pilots are enjoying a "windfall" at junior USAIr pilots' expense... Furloughs are a fact of this career, in case you didn't realize it coming in.

The seniority integration is fair because nobody gets a CAREER windfall out of the deal. The fact that there are junior pilots in STL right now is because they were HIRED at AA before TWA was ACQUIRED. Since AA was the acquiring carrier, what makes you think that TWA pilots should remain employed while AA pilots hit the streets????? WTFO? Your logic is flawed, sorry. And don't forget that there were AA pilots furloughed before the acquisition.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there several hundred TWA pilots in STL that are Captains with a seniority # good for MD80 FO anywhere else? Don't they get to remain Captains for the next 10-15 years while AA FOs remain FOS all that time? Is that not a windfall for the TWA side (even though I never acknowledged it?)

Bottom line is this: Nobody is gonna upgrade faster because of this integration. Nobody checks out on a widebody quicker. In other words, no windfalls, for the most part. You can't look at a furlough as a windfall, because noone can predict furloughs (and 9-11, for that matter.) Therefore the integration was fair.

Finally, I believe AA would have been in a much, much better financial situation had it not been for the buyout. TWA was a sinking ship laden with debt. Even though I was sad to see them go, sympathy doesn't carry far in this business.

BTW, I am not with AA, just have a lot of friends there who keep me current. And it amazes me how much the rest of the industry feels pity for the poor TWA pilots without taking into account the poor AA pilots who are just as furloughed.

 

[rudderdog]

Sure, there are hundreds of AA pilots on furough. And, of course, I wish no furlough for any of us. But, the "windfall" is because they are 2000 and 2001 hires. The TWA guys are captains furloughed back to 1988 and maybe 87 here soon. ACQUIRED does not mean loss of senority. If you think that, your "aquired logic" is flawed. Again, the plan and intent of the acquisition was not the same as others you speak of. The junior pilots ARE getting a windfall simply because they are still working.... Hello..... And they WILL upgrade sooner because of all the seniority they gained overnight. You are familiar with how this whole seniority thing works, right?

Do you know what happens in chapter 11? As part of the deal, TWA filed CH-11. In that process AA decided which debt and contracts (literally hundreds) to take on. And most of those contracts were renegotiated. So, your debt logic is flawed. Ever heard of Worldspan???

AA would have furloughed just like DAL and UAL if not for TWA. Many that still have jobs today at AA would have been gone for a year now or at the very least those recent AA furloughes would have taken place much sooner. That is a windfall.

Funny how all we heard during the deal was how AA historically buys airlines and gets rid of the planes but keeps the employees. That was their argument. With 120+ TWA aircraft still flying and only around 550 TWA pilots remaining, their main argument was seriously "flawed".

Btw, I don't think our remaining pilots can go to other bases yet. And not to other aircraft (777 or airbus) LIKE THE AQUIRED RENO GUYS CAN. Even if their seniority can hold it. "Windfall"

 

[theflyingcondor]

Sure, there are hundreds of AA pilots on furough. And, of course, I wish no furlough for any of us. But, the "windfall" is because they are 2000 and 2001 hires. The TWA guys are captains furloughed back to 1988 and maybe 87 here soon. ACQUIRED does not mean loss of senority. If you think that, your "aquired logic" is flawed. Again, the plan and intent of the acquisition was not the same as others you speak of. The junior pilots ARE getting a windfall simply because they are still working.... Hello..... And they WILL upgrade sooner because of all the seniority they gained overnight. You are familiar with how this whole seniority thing works, right?

Do you know what happens in chapter 11? As part of the deal, TWA filed CH-11. In that process AA decided which debt and contracts (literally hundreds) to take on. And most of those contracts were renegotiated. So, your debt logic is flawed. Ever heard of Worldspan???

AA would have furloughed just like DAL and UAL if not for TWA. Many that still have jobs today at AA would have been gone for a year now or at the very least those recent AA furloughes would have taken place much sooner. That is a windfall.

Funny how all we heard during the deal was how AA historically buys airlines and gets rid of the planes but keeps the employees. That was their argument. With 120+ TWA aircraft still flying and only around 550 TWA pilots remaining, their main argument was seriously "flawed".

Btw, I don't think our remaining pilots can go to other bases yet. And not to other aircraft (777 or airbus) LIKE THE AQUIRED RENO GUYS CAN. Even if their seniority can hold it. "Windfall"

OK, I'll attempt them one at a time.

You say it is a windfall because the junior AA guys are 2000-2001 hires. Wen exactly did they negotiate to be 2000-2001 hires? They can't control when they get hired. So TWA Captains from 1988 are getting furloughed? WHat about 1988 USAir guys getting furloughed? They were captains too. It doesn't matter what airline... under certain economic conditions, ANYONE can get furloughed. The fact that the junior AA guys are '00 and '01 hires is about as important as your eye color. Big deal.

Since TWA was ACQUIRED, and voluntarily declared bankruptcy AFTER the ACQUISITION, I do believe it was AA's preoragtive on which contracts to void and which to continue. As such, it is also logical that the pilots associated with the MORE FINANCIALLY STABLE airline keep certain RIGHTFUL SENIORITY options... simply because of the fact that TWA was not in a postion to negotiate. That is true in all of corporate America.

The junior AA pilots can not control the fact that they are still working. When they were hired in 2000, they had no clue as to what kind of sinking ship AA was about to take on. SO therefore it is NOT a windfall, because they did NOT negotiate on when they were hired.


AA would NOT have furloughed as many had in not been for the TWA takeover, simply because they would have been in a much better financial position, without the crapload of debt associated with TWA. We would have had half of our furloughees still working today. Regardless of the contracts that are renegotiated, a debt is a debt. I can renegotiate a 17% credit card to a 0% credit card, but I'd still have the debt, just at no interest.

AA only has 3 more aircraft right now compared to the acquisition date, the result of the F100 retirements and aircraft in the desert. So they did get rid of a bunch of aircraft. Who cares if its AA or TWA aircraft? The point is, there's still 550 TWA pilots flying their own aircraft, as well as a ton of AA pilots flying their own aircraft. Where's the problem?

Who cares if the TWA pilots can't go to other bases??? WHY WOULD THEY? They can remain as Captains for the next 15 years with a seniority number good for MD80 FO or MAYBE 767 FO, tops, anywhere else. That is definitely a windfall for TWA pilots.

Maybe if all the TWA pilots were stapled like the Reno guys, there wouldn't be fences. The very fact that half the TWAy pilots got an integration, AND A LONG ASS CAPTAIN FENCE makes the widebody fences pretty reasonable.

So far, we're 1 for 1 on windfalls - You say AA got a windfall by their junior guys still employed, I say TWA got a winfdfall by letting low seniority guys remain Captain in STL.... So far, seems pretty fair and equitable to me.

Finally, if you we re furloughed as a result of the Acquisition, I wish you the best.. and all of the other thousands that have been furloughed, whether it be from a merger, 9-11, incompetent management, etc.

 

[stlflyguy]

"Well, there you go again..."

You said:

"Maybe if all the TWA pilots were stapled like the Reno guys, there wouldn't be fences. The very fact that half the TWAy pilots got an integration, AND A LONG ASS CAPTAIN FENCE makes the widebody fences pretty reasonable."


Interesting you compare the Reno guys to TWA. AMR chose to run TWA as a separate operation with it's own certificate. My understanding of Reno was that those pilots were trained and moved to the AA certificate...making them junior by the date they showed up.

By contrast, AMR ran TWA LLC as a separate operation. Two seniority lists. When TWA pilots tried to negotiate seniority with AMR, AMR simply said "Oh, we can't negotiate with you, you're TWA. Try LLC." When the TWA pilots asked LLC to negotiate, LLC replied "You're talking about seniority at American. You'll have to talk to them."

And the Company, whether it be LLC or American (which are one and the same, aren't they?) finds itself in a RLA failure to treat situation. That sir, will find the American pilots later "disadvantaged", as well as the Company, should a court decision be rendered.


"So far, we're 1 for 1 on windfalls - You say AA got a windfall by their junior guys still employed, I say TWA got a winfdfall by letting low seniority guys remain Captain in STL.... So far, seems pretty fair and equitable to me."

Again, the facts are skewed. Low seniority of the former TWA Captains is a direct result of the imposed integration (remember that word "imposed" as opposed to "negotiated") that APA and AMR entered into BEFORE any negotiations between APA and the TWA pilots took place.

Please also remember that it was AMR's request that TWA file bankruptcy (Source: AMR 10K report, April 2001)

As for me, if you find a true Native AA pilot that will agree to the Ozark/TWA seniority integration, I'll sign on first hand.

 

[theflyingcondor]

You said:





By contrast, AMR ran TWA LLC as a separate operation. Two seniority lists. When TWA pilots tried to negotiate seniority with AMR, AMR simply said "Oh, we can't negotiate with you, you're TWA. Try LLC." When the TWA pilots asked LLC to negotiate, LLC replied "You're talking about seniority at American. You'll have to talk to them."

BEEEP Wrong. APA negotiated a much better integration than the current one, and the TWA MEC refused to sign or even negotiate. You can blame ALPA and your lame ass MEC for that one. AFter that, APA took the stance that these guys did not want to negotiate, so they imposed the current integration, and ALPA and the TWA MEC didn't even peep. Now all of a sudden they're all pissed off.

And the Company, whether it be LLC or American (which are one and the same, aren't they?) finds itself in a RLA failure to treat situation. That sir, will find the American pilots later "disadvantaged", as well as the Company, should a court decision be rendered.

Hey, who am I to say that the lawsuit will win or lose? There are valid points on both sides... but I think that the courts will find this a pretty fair and equitable settlement, given the alternative that the TWA pilots would have faced after 9-11.



"So far, we're 1 for 1 on windfalls - You say AA got a windfall by their junior guys still employed, I say TWA got a winfdfall by letting low seniority guys remain Captain in STL.... So far, seems pretty fair and equitable to me."

Again, the facts are skewed. Low seniority of the former TWA Captains is a direct result of the imposed integration (remember that word "imposed" as opposed to "negotiated") that APA and AMR entered into BEFORE any negotiations between APA and the TWA pilots took place.

Please also remember that it was AMR's request that TWA file bankruptcy (Source: AMR 10K report, April 2001)

As for me, if you find a true Native AA pilot that will agree to the Ozark/TWA seniority integration, I'll sign on first hand.

Sure... let's totally ruin the career expectations of AA pilots since, after all, AA was the acquiring carrier. That my friend is what is known as Delusions of Grandeur.

P.S. Your career wasn't stolen by AA, it it was stolen by ALPA.

 

[theflyingcondor]

OK guys and gals... Last thing I want to do is start an argument over issues I may be not as qualified as I think to debate. This is such a case. I don't have enough industry experience to be able to make an honest assessment over what went down, despite my earlier posts. Please accept my apologies.

To all the TWA folks: I hope you all find bluer skies. Despite was written, I do miss seeing TWA, hearing them on the radio and riding them to Europe.

To the AA folks: I hope everyone gets recalled, that goes for native AA pilots as well as TWA pilots. I hope AA survives the downturn and keeps everyone employed.

As for myself, I will proceed to observe a litle more and talk a little less, in my elusive search of that perfect career.

I wish you all the best.

 

[stlflyguy]

Finally you're recognizing your limitations.

The APA snowjob that was offered to the TWA MEC was nothing more than sugar on a turd. When you can tell me just how much better it was, I'll give you some credit. Until then, it was nothing more than a little sugar to get a concessionary signature by the MEC that the APA knew couldn't be challenged once signed.(ala Ozark/TWA--the OZ guys signed and then tried to sue, only to have their case dismissed because they agreed to their integration).

Thank you Sally for not signing!

If you'll remember, the TWA MEC made attempts to suggest integrations with APA. APA took the knee and decided to run out the clock as they already had a deal with American inked...without the TWA pilots knowledge.

We could go on, but since you're admitting your limited knowledge in this subject we'll leave it at that.

Best of luck.

 

[CSY Mon]

career stolen by AA:

Ya should have applied to AA earlier, better seniority would have kept ya flying....

 

[XTW]

There are some of us that NEVER applied nor had any desire to apply to AA.

 

[theflyingcondor]

Finally you're recognizing your limitations.

The APA snowjob that was offered to the TWA MEC was nothing more than sugar on a turd. When you can tell me just how much better it was, I'll give you some credit. Until then, it was nothing more than a little sugar to get a concessionary signature by the MEC that the APA knew couldn't be challenged once signed.(ala Ozark/TWA--the OZ guys signed and then tried to sue, only to have their case dismissed because they agreed to their integration).

Thank you Sally for not signing!

If you'll remember, the TWA MEC made attempts to suggest integrations with APA. APA took the knee and decided to run out the clock as they already had a deal with American inked...without the TWA pilots knowledge.

We could go on, but since you're admitting your limited knowledge in this subject we'll leave it at that.

Best of luck.

STL - All of the info I've posted came to me second hand from acquaintances at AA. That's why I believe I shouldn't really be voicing a strong opinion about what happened.

Unfortunately, there will always be pilots from both sides who will either think it was fair or it was a screw job. Which makes this whole situation exactly like almost 100% of all airline mergers in history.

In any case, I wish pilots from both sides all the luck in the world.

 

[CRJDog]

They tried and they tried...
Not sure they had much of a leg to stand on.

If the deal was so bad, so un-fair and againt any law, surely the courts would have given the TWA pilots their rightful place on the list by now.

That being said, I have not heard any complains from the senior ex-TWA pilots who are now flying for AA..

The furloughed TWA guys can always try to cry on the shoulder of the furloughed native AA guys (like myself), but not sure they are getting much sympathy.

Blame it on 9/11, not on the AA guys...What did the AA pilots owe the TWA guys in the first place....? Their seats?

I agree.

IMO,the blame was a nearing recession and 9/11 just accelerated it. If the roles were reversed and TWA purchased AA wouldn't you want all TWA pilots protected to minimize furloughs? TWA was in deep sh!t long before the purchase.

The airline that truly got shafted was Pan Am. Surley they were in deep sh!t too but due to a laundry list of events that did not help the airline along with again, TERRORISM, finished it off. Oh wait, DAL had had a role with it's demise as well.

Going back to the subject at hand (my apologies) I hope that UAL furloughees get their jobs back along with all the others on the street.

MY 2 cents,

Peace.

 

[CSY Mon]

There are some of us that NEVER applied nor had any desire to apply to AA.

Excellent, then don't bitch and then stay away from that nasty oufit.
AA pilot, Jeez, overworked and under-paid..No work rules or pension...**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty place to be.....

AA (The airline, not the drinking club) seems to have a bad rap among the guys that never worked there and perhaps never got accepted/hired there, as well as the guys that ended up there due to a recent buy-out.
Without of course getting their rightfull date of hire date on the big list.

Aye, poor cry-babies.
They all claim they never wanted to even go there, but if there was a change to scoot over while TWA went downhill fast, then up the AA list they should be.

Newsflash for the wannabees:

AA is a pretty darn nice airline to work for.
Been there, done that.
Now furloughed, but looking forward to going back unless all them Eagle guys and all them TWay guys win their lawsuits and get their "rightfull" place on the list...The one they never applied for or ever wanted.....

 

[XTW]

Excellent, then don't bitch and then stay away from that nasty oufit.


Don't recall ever bitching. If you can find a quote by me that shows such, I'd like to see it. Until that time, I'd suggest getting your facts straight, and maybe see someone about the anger you seem to vent in your post.

 

[CSY Mon]

maybe see someone about the anger you seem to vent in your post.

Me angry?

Talk to the ex-TWA guys that got their career ruined by AA and APA.
Them guys are angry about their position in life and have vented around here.
(Search around for posts on the subject.)
I am like Pavlos dog, I react when some guy joins the AA-TWA conversation saying: I never applied there, or even wanted to work there.
(Like the guys that would like to fly the senior seats, but they really never had a desire to work here, or be here. Sounded like ya)

I'd suggest getting your facts straight,

Thanks for the suggestion, but uh, thought I heard that song about AA before, perhaps I was barking up the wrong tree? My mistake.

Just curious:

There are some of us that NEVER applied nor had any desire to apply to AA.

Glad ya escaped the evil empire.

 

[steveg]

Hey CSY,

Tell us again about how many times you applied and got shot down, and how hard your interviews were. And why that qualifies you to be God's gift to Aviation. Come on, best thing you ever did was get hired by aa right? Because you deserve it? Your company bought another, so you deserve to be a captain on those other planes because you went through such a hard interview at aa? Right? It must be so sad to be hanging on to aa. No really, good luck with what's left of your career. You deserve all the "good" things coming your way with aa.

Oh, before you try to slam me. I have moved on and will not go back to aa. Interviewed for 5 flying jobs in my life and was fortunate to be hired EVERY time. Am now with another GREAT company, and am enjoying every minute of it. Yeah, it sucks to see TWA gone. But it was great while it lasted. That's the sad thing, you are just too full of yourself to realize what you got into at aa. I don't hate aa pilots, just the arrogant p*icks like yourself that tell everyone what you deserve. I mean why not, aa had a hub in STL when you started right? Right? Silence..........