United furloughs

[theflyingcondor]

This may not be the proper thread but, if you think furloughed 1998 hire pilots have had to sacrifice, imagine having been hired (10) years earlier in 1988 and then suddenly finding yourself in the unemployment lines. In less than a years time, former TWA Captains with three years in the left seat were downgraded to F/O then eliminated altogether while Arrogant Airlines replaced them with their own 2nd and 3rd year F/O's. I could go on and on with the injustices by AMR and the APA pilots but sadly, no other pilot group really cares until it happens to them.

A fair and concerned national pilot union with any backbone at all(not ALPA) could have prevented such unfair treatment of its members. National Seniority list anybody? Stand up and sound off before it's too late and it happens to you!

Isn't that the same position USAirways pilots are now finding themselves in ? I thought their furloughs went back to 1988. I don't see any USAir pilots complaining about unfairness.

 

[theflyingcondor]

This may not be the proper thread but, if you think furloughed 1998 hire pilots have had to sacrifice, imagine having been hired (10) years earlier in 1988 and then suddenly finding yourself in the unemployment lines. In less than a years time, former TWA Captains with three years in the left seat were downgraded to F/O then eliminated altogether while Arrogant Airlines replaced them with their own 2nd and 3rd year F/O's. I could go on and on with the injustices by AMR and the APA pilots but sadly, no other pilot group really cares until it happens to them.

A fair and concerned national pilot union with any backbone at all(not ALPA) could have prevented such unfair treatment of its members. National Seniority list anybody? Stand up and sound off before it's too late and it happens to you!

Disgusted,

Don't know much about this merger... but when you say that AA "replaced" TWA positions with their own 2nd or 3rd year FOs, how is it that you deem that unfair, when AA was the purchasing agent? Would you have expected that TWA, the acquired carrier, kept its pilots jobs while AA, the purchasing carrier, laid off? I don't see your logic. I understand that it's a very crappy deal that any pilots got laid off from both carriers, but you have to understand that when a financially sound carrier (at least back then) purchases an unfinancially sound carrier, certain shots are gonna be called by the airline in better shape. That's true in all of corporate America. Now whether the shots are fair or not depends on who you ask... from what I understand the APA did an extensive study looking at career expectations and types of aircraft operated by both airlines, and that was what the integration was based on.

Check out my above post. USAir is laying off pilots with 1988 hire dates, guys that were Captains just 3-5 years ago. Furloughs are the nature of this business. It is not unique to the TWA situation.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Thread morph into the abysmal treatment of TWA pilots...

Disgusted,

... from what I understand the APA did an extensive study looking at career expectations and types of aircraft operated by both airlines, and that was what the integration was based on.

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone from TWA or AA), but isn't American still operating more than 100 TWA aircraft?

How many TWA pilots were there prior to the merger, how many would have retired by now and how many TWA pilots are still at AA? Would the current pilots at AA who are from TWA be able to staff those 100+ aircraft?

Even a U.S. senator was quoted as saying that this is the worst seniority merger he has ever encountered.

The pilots, as bad as they've been treated, fared better than the flight attendants as a whole. There are no ex-TWA flight attendants currently employed at AA.

The whole situation is truly unfortunate for the ex-TWA folks.

GP

 

[theflyingcondor]

Correct me if I'm wrong (anyone from TWA or AA), but isn't American still operating more than 100 TWA aircraft?

How many TWA pilots were there prior to the merger, how many would have retired by now and how many TWA pilots are still at AA? Would the current pilots at AA who are from TWA be able to staff those 100+ aircraft?

Even a U.S. senator was quoted as saying that this is the worst seniority merger he has ever encountered.

The pilots, as bad as they've been treated, fared better than the flight attendants as a whole. There are no ex-TWA flight attendants currently employed at AA.

The whole situation is truly unfortunate for the ex-TWA folks.

GP

GP - I cannot answer most of those questions. Maybe someone from AA/TWA can. My point was to point out that there is at least one other airline with furloughs dating back to 1988.

It seems like you are assuming that since AA has 100+ ex TWA aircraft, then AA should have kept the TWA pilots to staff them. Using that logic, therefore, AA should have kept some Braniff pilots to staff the Braniff 727s they bought in the early 80s. It doesn't work that way.

I mentioned in my previous post that APA had done an extensive study looking at career projections to help in determining the integration - this from a buddy who flies for AA. I believe they looked at aircraft orders, upgrades to Captain, widebodies vs narrowbodies, etc. What they found was that AA had a bunch of widebodies on order, TWA had some narrowbodies on order. AA pilots could expect to fly 777 CA someday - TWA pilots only had the 767.. AA pilots could expect to earn a max of around $16k/month - TWA pilots could earn around $9K/month. AApilots could walk out with a $3mil lump sum payout at retirement - TWA's was not even half that.

Using all of that, APA put together a list that protected the career expectations of the AA pilot while not giving them unnecessary windfalls. They also have some kind of deal where TWA pilots can fly as Captain in St Louis even though their AA seniority only enables them to fly as FO outside of St Louis - a protected fence.

So as I understand it, AA pilots never got a windfall from the merger. TWA pilots never got a windfall from the merger. The furloughs that happened after 9/11- who could have foreseen that? So how was the integration unfair?

Do you think that TWA pilots should have kept their jobs and AA pilots should have been furloughed instead? No one has answered that question.

I do believe that the FAs got a crappy deal, though. I think their FAs should have at least gotten what the pilots got.

Wonder why ALPA didn't try for a better deal, if they thought it was so unfair.

 

[CSY Mon]

Wonder why ALPA didn't try for a better deal, if they thought it was so unfair.

They tried and they tried...
Not sure they had much of a leg to stand on.

If the deal was so bad, so un-fair and againt any law, surely the courts would have given the TWA pilots their rightful place on the list by now.

That being said, I have not heard any complains from the senior ex-TWA pilots who are now flying for AA..

The furloughed TWA guys can always try to cry on the shoulder of the furloughed native AA guys (like myself), but not sure they are getting much sympathy.

Blame it on 9/11, not on the AA guys...What did the AA pilots owe the TWA guys in the first place....? Their seats?

 

[AA717driver]

CSY--ALPA failed to inform the TWA MEC that they were actively recruiting the AA pilots before, during and shortly after the integration.

"If the deal was so bad, so un-fair and againt any law, surely the courts would have given the TWA pilots their rightful place on the list by now."

The suit is ongoing.

"That being said, I have not heard any complains from the senior ex-TWA pilots who are now flying for AA.."

Of course not. They are nearly all ex-Ozark and most are trying to cover up the fact that they got DOH when TWA acquired OZ.

"The furloughed TWA guys can always try to cry on the shoulder of the furloughed native AA guys (like myself), but not sure they are getting much sympathy."

You expect to be on pins and needles for the first several years of your career. After 10 years, if you end up on the street, your company has gone out of business--not been acquired. This is no different than the screwing Delta gave the PanAm pilots. Actually, that WAS slightly worse--the PAA people(747 Capt's.) were just cut loose and not offered the coveted spot on the bottom of the seniority list.

"Blame it on 9/11, not on the AA guys...What did the AA pilots owe the TWA guys in the first place....? Their seats?"

AA pilots owe TWA for the 100 aircraft they are operating and the Natives who are employed because of it. AA would have still grounded the 727's and probably would have grounded the F100's, too. There are now only a handful of aircraft on order.

If you believe in "to the victor go the spoils" you'd better be prepared to live by that, too. The LCC's are taking chunks out of AA's lifeblood--yield. JetBlue and AirTran(both becoming populated with ex-TWA people) owe the legacy carriers nothing... TC

 

[theflyingcondor]

CSY--ALPA failed to inform the TWA MEC that they were actively recruiting the AA pilots before, during and shortly after the integration.

"If the deal was so bad, so un-fair and againt any law, surely the courts would have given the TWA pilots their rightful place on the list by now."

The suit is ongoing.

"That being said, I have not heard any complains from the senior ex-TWA pilots who are now flying for AA.."

Of course not. They are nearly all ex-Ozark and most are trying to cover up the fact that they got DOH when TWA acquired OZ.

"The furloughed TWA guys can always try to cry on the shoulder of the furloughed native AA guys (like myself), but not sure they are getting much sympathy."

You expect to be on pins and needles for the first several years of your career. After 10 years, if you end up on the street, your company has gone out of business--not been acquired. This is no different than the screwing Delta gave the PanAm pilots. Actually, that WAS slightly worse--the PAA people(747 Capt's.) were just cut loose and not offered the coveted spot on the bottom of the seniority list.

"Blame it on 9/11, not on the AA guys...What did the AA pilots owe the TWA guys in the first place....? Their seats?"

AA pilots owe TWA for the 100 aircraft they are operating and the Natives who are employed because of it. AA would have still grounded the 727's and probably would have grounded the F100's, too. There are now only a handful of aircraft on order.

If you believe in "to the victor go the spoils" you'd better be prepared to live by that, too. The LCC's are taking chunks out of AA's lifeblood--yield. JetBlue and AirTran(both becoming populated with ex-TWA people) owe the legacy carriers nothing... TC

717 - excellent post. Clears up a lot of questions I had. Except one - why do the AA pilots "owe" just because they are operating TWA's aircraft? Wasn't AA the purchasing carrier, and therefore can exercise whatever options it wishes as to who operates them? See my above post regarding AA's ex-Braniff aircraft. AA pilots certainly don't owe ex-Braniff pilots anything just because Management has decided to purchase those aircraft. Same thing goes with purchasing an entire airline, right?

OK well here's my opinion, for what it's worth:

TWA FAs - screwed.
TWA/AA seniority integration - fair (since no one pilot group enjoyed a windfall at the other's expense.)
Furloughs continuing at AA - UNFAIR!!!!! (but the pilots didn't have anything to do with that.)

 

[CSY Mon]

If you believe in "to the victor go the spoils" you'd better be prepared to live by that, too.

Thanks for the advice, but I never said that.

As for draining AA's lifeblood, that would be the present oilprices.

JetBlue and AirTran(both becoming populated with ex-TWA people

The very same airlines that TWA could not compete against and that almost put 'em out of business?
Small world.

 

[viking737]

Any ex-TWA pilots have a guess on what percentage of furloughed guys
will come back to AA when there is a recall?
I would guess the ones at SWA would stay, but what about JetBlue, AirTran,
corporate etc...?

 

[JJGMADDOG]

Well, as soon as we win our lawsuit, I'm sure the majority of us will all come back!!!

Boy, I can feel the love already!!!