United furloughs

[AA717driver]

CSY--ALPA failed to inform the TWA MEC that they were actively recruiting the AA pilots before, during and shortly after the integration.

"If the deal was so bad, so un-fair and againt any law, surely the courts would have given the TWA pilots their rightful place on the list by now."

The suit is ongoing.

"That being said, I have not heard any complains from the senior ex-TWA pilots who are now flying for AA.."

Of course not. They are nearly all ex-Ozark and most are trying to cover up the fact that they got DOH when TWA acquired OZ.

"The furloughed TWA guys can always try to cry on the shoulder of the furloughed native AA guys (like myself), but not sure they are getting much sympathy."

You expect to be on pins and needles for the first several years of your career. After 10 years, if you end up on the street, your company has gone out of business--not been acquired. This is no different than the screwing Delta gave the PanAm pilots. Actually, that WAS slightly worse--the PAA people(747 Capt's.) were just cut loose and not offered the coveted spot on the bottom of the seniority list.

"Blame it on 9/11, not on the AA guys...What did the AA pilots owe the TWA guys in the first place....? Their seats?"

AA pilots owe TWA for the 100 aircraft they are operating and the Natives who are employed because of it. AA would have still grounded the 727's and probably would have grounded the F100's, too. There are now only a handful of aircraft on order.

If you believe in "to the victor go the spoils" you'd better be prepared to live by that, too. The LCC's are taking chunks out of AA's lifeblood--yield. JetBlue and AirTran(both becoming populated with ex-TWA people) owe the legacy carriers nothing... TC

 

[theflyingcondor]

CSY--ALPA failed to inform the TWA MEC that they were actively recruiting the AA pilots before, during and shortly after the integration.

"If the deal was so bad, so un-fair and againt any law, surely the courts would have given the TWA pilots their rightful place on the list by now."

The suit is ongoing.

"That being said, I have not heard any complains from the senior ex-TWA pilots who are now flying for AA.."

Of course not. They are nearly all ex-Ozark and most are trying to cover up the fact that they got DOH when TWA acquired OZ.

"The furloughed TWA guys can always try to cry on the shoulder of the furloughed native AA guys (like myself), but not sure they are getting much sympathy."

You expect to be on pins and needles for the first several years of your career. After 10 years, if you end up on the street, your company has gone out of business--not been acquired. This is no different than the screwing Delta gave the PanAm pilots. Actually, that WAS slightly worse--the PAA people(747 Capt's.) were just cut loose and not offered the coveted spot on the bottom of the seniority list.

"Blame it on 9/11, not on the AA guys...What did the AA pilots owe the TWA guys in the first place....? Their seats?"

AA pilots owe TWA for the 100 aircraft they are operating and the Natives who are employed because of it. AA would have still grounded the 727's and probably would have grounded the F100's, too. There are now only a handful of aircraft on order.

If you believe in "to the victor go the spoils" you'd better be prepared to live by that, too. The LCC's are taking chunks out of AA's lifeblood--yield. JetBlue and AirTran(both becoming populated with ex-TWA people) owe the legacy carriers nothing... TC

717 - excellent post. Clears up a lot of questions I had. Except one - why do the AA pilots "owe" just because they are operating TWA's aircraft? Wasn't AA the purchasing carrier, and therefore can exercise whatever options it wishes as to who operates them? See my above post regarding AA's ex-Braniff aircraft. AA pilots certainly don't owe ex-Braniff pilots anything just because Management has decided to purchase those aircraft. Same thing goes with purchasing an entire airline, right?

OK well here's my opinion, for what it's worth:

TWA FAs - screwed.
TWA/AA seniority integration - fair (since no one pilot group enjoyed a windfall at the other's expense.)
Furloughs continuing at AA - UNFAIR!!!!! (but the pilots didn't have anything to do with that.)

 

[CSY Mon]

If you believe in "to the victor go the spoils" you'd better be prepared to live by that, too.

Thanks for the advice, but I never said that.

As for draining AA's lifeblood, that would be the present oilprices.

JetBlue and AirTran(both becoming populated with ex-TWA people

The very same airlines that TWA could not compete against and that almost put 'em out of business?
Small world.

 

[viking737]

Any ex-TWA pilots have a guess on what percentage of furloughed guys
will come back to AA when there is a recall?
I would guess the ones at SWA would stay, but what about JetBlue, AirTran,
corporate etc...?

 

[JJGMADDOG]

Well, as soon as we win our lawsuit, I'm sure the majority of us will all come back!!!

Boy, I can feel the love already!!!

 

[AA717driver]

Hey JJG! It's my job to jerk CSY's chain!

This whole mess sucks for everyone. The debate will rage on until everyone who was on the AA and TWA seniority lists has retired.

I just hope everyone lands on their feet somehow.

Viking--A lot of us thump our chests and swear we'll never go back but the reality is that we'll just have to take a look at the health of AA and what the rest of the industry is doing. I'm almost 46 and have landed a great corporate job. I can stay where I'm at and do just fine. But, I'm not making any bold statements anymore. Jerking CSY's chain aside, I really was never interested in working for AA because of their size and culture. The culture is changing--slowly, but it is changing. My clock is ticking, though.TC

 

[JJGMADDOG]

Hey TC,

Sounds good, your'e the official CSY jerker, its a dirty job but somebody has to do it!!

I see you're posts now and then over on the "other" website...good to hear from you!
JG

 

[CSY Mon]

Hey JJG! It's my job to jerk CSY's chain!

You kids are way too late.

My chain was jerked big time when the TWA guys ran to Senator Kit Bond and begged him to pass some law that would move ya further up the list..

Nothing against fellow pilots of course, as long as they don't try to snag my seat from underneath my arse.

Well, as soon as we win our lawsuit, I'm sure the majority of us will all come back!!!

Been smoking crack again Mad Dog?

On the other hand, if ya win the lawsuit, against all odds, my hat off to you guys, ya sure put up a good fight.

In the meantime, don't start celebrating quite yet, only the lawyers will get rich on this one.

 

[JJGMADDOG]

Hey skippy, good to hear from you again....thought you might be on the witness relocation program!!

 

[CSY Mon]

thought you might be on the witness relocation program!!

Not this cowboy.

Still here and kickin', no reason to hide.

 

[theflyingcondor]

Hey JJG! It's my job to jerk CSY's chain!

This whole mess sucks for everyone. The debate will rage on until everyone who was on the AA and TWA seniority lists has retired.

I just hope everyone lands on their feet somehow.

Viking--A lot of us thump our chests and swear we'll never go back but the reality is that we'll just have to take a look at the health of AA and what the rest of the industry is doing. I'm almost 46 and have landed a great corporate job. I can stay where I'm at and do just fine. But, I'm not making any bold statements anymore. Jerking CSY's chain aside, I really was never interested in working for AA because of their size and culture. The culture is changing--slowly, but it is changing. My clock is ticking, though.TC

I think the debate you talk about rages on for every airline that has had a merger in its past. I know for a fact that NWA still debates the Republic merger... Delta and Western... heck, look at all the name calling that went on when United and USAir were supposed to marry.

Mergers suck, regardless of what the outcome was.

 

[AA717driver]

NWA-Republic... I had a former Republic guy in the hotel van tell me how bad they had it. Because of the lousy restrictions(they got DOH, btw) it would take him two years more to be captain on the -400.

I'm still losing sleep feeling sorry for him...

I still don't know why there was any bitching over the Western/Delta deal. Everyone got unrestricted DOH and it's the Western guys who are complaining.

You're right, mergers suck.TC

 

[wjcpilot]

recalls

Large UAL vacancy is out. About 90 positions... Rumor is recalls could start as soon as year end. Hope its true for all of us 2172 on the street.

Mike

 

[FlyingToIST]

Today they announced that they will be recalling close to 400 F/As.. Hopefully that will also involve some pilots.

 

[rudderdog]

TWA/AA seniority integration - fair (since no one pilot group enjoyed a windfall at the other's expense.)

You guys are so full of it! There are hundreds of very junior AA pilots benefiting from "the windfall" at the expense of the TWA pilots. This was not PanAm or Branniff. They never had parties with hats and banners and things saying, "Two great airlines, One great future". The intent and plan was totally different. You know it.

9-11 was not the reason for the horrible integeration (that was probably greed and arrogance along with trying to protect and advance your pilots). But, it did accelerate the process for obvious reasons benefiting the junior AA pilots.

It's easy for you all to say ,"the integration must have been fair because noone is happy". That's a bunch of crap too. I do believe not many at AA are happy, however, that line is just used to make it appear fair. You ALL would have been much worse off if not for the TWA deal.