United Family Unity Rally in California--the big rat

[shelton]

In a recent Alpa "FastRead Newsflash" email dated 6/16/08 there is a picture of union members standing around a big rat with bags of money. I am embarrassed to be a part of a union that would do that. Are we serious? We are represented by a union that is starting to ask for more money, but can scrape up the money to rent/buy this thing?

Can you imagine management doing stuff like this? Perhaps they would get lots of blow up people with pitch forks and lanterns to represent the mob mentality.

If we want to be taken seriously...oh forget it.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

 

[JoeMerchant]

In a recent Alpa "FastRead Newsflash" email dated 6/16/08 there is a picture of union members standing around a big rat with bags of money. I am embarrassed to be a part of a union that would do that. Are we serious? We are represented by a union that is starting to ask for more money, but can scrape up the money to rent/buy this thing?

Can you imagine management doing stuff like this? Perhaps they would get lots of blow up people with pitch forks and lanterns to represent the mob mentality.

If we want to be taken seriously...oh forget it.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

You're absolutely right Jonathan....There is a movement that is growing here at ASA to decertify ALPA. Atlas is voting to decertify ALPA. It is time....

 

[Nevets]

I thought this thread was going to be about the big rat - Tilton.

 

[NoJoy]

The Rat thing is a little embarrasing. If ALPA wants some kind of respect from managment-lose the rodent please.

 

[sea6t]

New ALPA Mascot

The Rat thing is a little embarrasing. If ALPA wants some kind of respect from managment-lose the rodent please.

It's not a little embarrassing- it's hugely embarrassing! The hypocrisy of them inflating a huge rodent with bags of money is overwhelming. Given my soon-to-be-implemented, involuntary contribution increase, maybe its more of a mascot for ALPA than an attack on management.

 

[DoinTime]

The Rat thing is a little embarrasing. If ALPA wants some kind of respect from managment-lose the rodent please.

You think management is going to give you any respect ever? Wow....one born every minute I guess.

 

[fly4surf]

They had that thing probably before you were paying dues.

 

[Freeze_gopher]

I Doubt ALPA national is using props like giant rats, its' not a big deal either way. On the other hand to suggest getting rid of ALPA continues to astound me. Management goes out of their way to anger, inconvenience, and frustrate us taking as much from our families as they can specifically to get us to fall apart and get rid of ALPA. How will you defend yourself as an individual without ALPA? We should be moving toward a true single national union not a bunch of bitter splintered little groups.

 

[shelton]

Less than ten percent of the U.S. workforce is unionized and somehow they make it. I will defend myself the same way they do. Professional mistakes are made throughout other industries and not everyone is fired. It is not in the best interest of a company to do that.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That Rat was such a hit at ALPA NWA that pilots made up buttons with a rat and red circle/slash.

Kinda like the UAL hat switch... many don't get it....

The big inflatable rat is symbolic of the management that has cheated and stolen pay and retirements...

But if you just show up, fly your trip and go home and want to believe everything is fine... then reject the rat....

Less than ten percent of the U.S. workforce is unionized and somehow they make it. I will defend myself the same way they do. Professional mistakes are made throughout other industries and not everyone is fired. It is not in the best interest of a company to do that.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

Have you been flying with Brian Wilson?

 

[landlover]

accept the fact that you are blue collar and please give up the crap about the rat being an embarrassment. what is embarrassing is the pay! the rat has been around for a long time and is widely known as the symbol of greedy management. Any union is as strong as it's members.

 

[sea6t]

...Management goes out of their way to anger, inconvenience, and frustrate us taking as much from our families as they can specifically to get us to fall apart and get rid of ALPA...

Wow. If only ALPA didn't come across as even more self-serving than management, I might buy what you're selling. I wonder what kind of evil plot management is working on right now to make me miserable....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I wonder what kind of evil plot management is working on right now to make me miserable....

Foreign Ownership
Open Skies
Greater flight time Duty time
Pay cuts- opps they already did that..
Work rule cuts- oops that too
gutted pensions- oops they did that too
Poor FMLA rules..
Indifference to TSA screening
MPL

Is that enough or do you want more?

 

[Freeze_gopher]

I'll say it again, I'm astounded. I think that we as labor confuse the role and ability of a Union to affect our working lives with the well thought out frustration generated by management across the industry. ALPA does not have the ability to Stop a company like UAL from doing ugly things to it's employees. They(we) can fight as a group, but... The real value is in INDIVIDUAL protection. Shelton, does your family have an extra $25K+ to fight the company or the FAA? Mine doesn't. Most workers take whatever the company wants to do and have no recourse. ALPA isn't perfect, they are a bureaucracy, but I've seen them save numerous careers.

 

[rogerwilcoout]

Foreign Ownership
Open Skies
Greater flight time Duty time
Pay cuts- opps they already did that..
Work rule cuts- oops that too
gutted pensions- oops they did that too
Poor FMLA rules..
Indifference to TSA screening
MPL

Is that enough or do you want more?

And ALL that has happened W H I L E I have been a union member.................that wasnt a good argument. Try again union hero.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

And ALL that has happened W H I L E I have been a union member.................that wasnt a good argument. Try again union hero.

So, if you weren't a union member none of this would have happened? What are you trying to say?

 

[Speedtape]

In a recent Alpa "FastRead Newsflash" email dated 6/16/08 there is a picture of union members standing around a big rat with bags of money. I am embarrassed to be a part of a union that would do that. Are we serious? We are represented by a union that is starting to ask for more money, but can scrape up the money to rent/buy this thing?

Can you imagine management doing stuff like this? Perhaps they would get lots of blow up people with pitch forks and lanterns to represent the mob mentality.

If we want to be taken seriously...oh forget it.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

Just wondering? How long have you been in your current career at ASA? The answer to that would probably explain your perspective.

If you would take a little time to study the history of MGMT/Labor relations in this industry, you might have better insight as to why UAL pilots would do such a thing. In fact, I would say that the UAL pilots have not only paid the price to do such a thing, but through their pain, efforts, contracts, have made this industry a better place for you to work than it otherwise would be!

Hang in there, you will learn if not from studing the past, but living the dream(sometimes nightmare) in the future.

 

[spudskier]

I'll be the first to admit that a union is a necessary evil in the airline world, but maybe a different one is in order.

The item de jour to tip the scales for me? Them wanting to take a percentage of my gross instead of my net now claiming it's because they lost US Air... This is money going towards my future, my 401k (one of the few benefits left the airline gives us) now you want to take away from my future? In my mind, if they lost US Air, then now only did they lose revenue, but they also lost a lot of expenses... fewer pilots to covers, one less MEC to fund, one less strike fund, less insurance, etc...

How about easing up on those expensive rats, premium office space that ALPA finds, mailers, magazines, etc... other "companies" find ways to cut costs, why can't ALPA?

 

[Freeze_gopher]

Spudskier,
I see your point but, I take issue with the idea that the company is GIVING you anything. You Earn all of it. Did USAir help themselves by getting rid of ALPA? The problem isn't ALPA, it is us. We like most people form organizations (State and Federal governments are good examples) and expect those organizations to do our bidding without having to participate or even understand the issues facing that organization. We just get angry and complain. How bad does it have to get before we get involved?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll be the first to admit that a union is a necessary evil in the airline world, but maybe a different one is in order.

The time, energy and resources to create a new one would cost much more than addressing the issues of the current one.

Liken it to rejecting America and starting a new country. What would be easier? Adjusting our laws and leaders or creating new ones... One only has to look at the USAPA experiment...

The item de jour to tip the scales for me? Them wanting to take a percentage of my gross instead of my net now claiming it's because they lost US Air... This is money going towards my future, my 401k (one of the few benefits left the airline gives us) now you want to take away from my future? In my mind, if they lost US Air, then now only did they lose revenue, but they also lost a lot of expenses... fewer pilots to covers, one less MEC to fund, one less strike fund, less insurance, etc...

Your understanding of the 401K issue is not valid. If ALPA changes the policy then you will miss out on a few beers each month.... your 401k shall remain.

How about easing up on those expensive rats,

ALPA used a rat from a different union. It was so successful (management hates it) that they got their own and its shared with the pilot groups of ALPA. Your ALPA leaders believe it has value. If you don't... take it up with them...

premium office space that ALPA finds,

Can you clarify?

mailers, magazines, etc... other "companies" find ways to cut costs, why can't ALPA?

ALPA had a publishing facility in Dulles they shut it down. ALPA has recently furloughed employees and rejected a new contract for Unit II.

Is that enough cost cutting?

I am curious what your democratic participation in ALPA is.... voting, meeting attendance, etc.. IOW, what are you doing to make your career democracy better?

You do believe in democracy and self rule don't you?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I Doubt ALPA national is using props like giant rats, its' not a big deal either way. On the other hand to suggest getting rid of ALPA continues to astound me. Management goes out of their way to anger, inconvenience, and frustrate us taking as much from our families as they can specifically to get us to fall apart and get rid of ALPA. How will you defend yourself as an individual without ALPA? We should be moving toward a true single national union not a bunch of bitter splintered little groups.

You're absolutely correct...However ALPA is organized as "a bunch of bitter splintered little groups"....

Time for us all to go our separate ways....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Have you been flying with Brian Wilson?

Brian Wilson and Shelton sign their names to their opinions....What is your name Mr. ALPA cheerleader?

John Breiling
former ALPA cheerleader

 

[SaturnPilot]

Less than ten percent of the U.S. workforce is unionized and somehow they make it. I will defend myself the same way they do. Professional mistakes are made throughout other industries and not everyone is fired. It is not in the best interest of a company to do that.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

I'm guessing that less than ten percent of the US workforce is subject to as many potential career ending events as we are (being fired from just ONE job, ATC violations, any type of minor incident on your record, etc). There are numerous non-union airlines that function great in which the employees work for good management that protects their employees. On the other hand, you have companies like Mesa, Pinnacle, Northwest, etc, where I would not want to hold a non union job if I cared at all about my future career.

What specifically makes you want to be non-union at ASA?

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is too easy.....

Foreign Ownership
Open Skies
Greater flight time Duty time
Pay cuts- opps they already did that..
Work rule cuts- oops that too
gutted pensions- oops they did that too
Poor FMLA rules..
Indifference to TSA screening
MPL

Is that enough or do you want more?

1. Open skies: There is a global pilot shortage and US ALPA pilots are leaving the US to work for non-US, non-ALPA carriers because they can make more money.....

2. Greater duty time could result in better and safer schedules....Duty time isn't what makes things unsafe.....It is better for a trans-con from the east coast to turn back and return to the east coast in the same day rather than go to the hotel and get 9 hours rest and come back as a red eye....

The regional folks regularly do 14-16 hour duty days with 6-7 approaches and landings....

Rest is the thing to go after....not flight time......

3. "Pay cuts - opps they already did that" - With ALPA!

4. "Work rule cuts - Opps that too" - Again with ALPA!

5. "Gutted Pensions - oops they did that too " - Again with ALPA - However many ALPA pilots never had a pension anyways....and those that did didn't care that many of us didn't and needed to work past 60.

6. Poor FMLA rules - They're fine...3 days off and I can claim FMLA....Next strawman....

7. Indifference to TSA screening - It is the liberal folks that think the federal govt. can actually keep sharp objects off aircraft....It was ALPA that wanted federal employees to screen.....Look for bad people and leave the good people alone....

8. MPL - ALPA doesn't care about qualifications....They are currently too low and ALPA hasn't said a single thing about the current requirements.....Regarding MPL....ALPA isn't even opposed to it...ALPA has let everyone down on the qualification issue...and continues to with MPL....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm guessing that less than ten percent of the US workforce is subject to as many potential career ending events as we are (being fired from just ONE job, ATC violations, any type of minor incident on your record, etc). There are numerous non-union airlines that function great in which the employees work for good management that protects their employees. On the other hand, you have companies like Mesa, Pinnacle, Northwest, etc, where I would not want to hold a non union job if I cared at all about my future career.

What specifically makes you want to be non-union at ASA?

Honest question Saturn Pilot....Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa?

 

[SaturnPilot]

I'll be the first to admit that a union is a necessary evil in the airline world, but maybe a different one is in order.

The item de jour to tip the scales for me? Them wanting to take a percentage of my gross instead of my net now claiming it's because they lost US Air... This is money going towards my future, my 401k (one of the few benefits left the airline gives us) now you want to take away from my future? In my mind, if they lost US Air, then now only did they lose revenue, but they also lost a lot of expenses... fewer pilots to covers, one less MEC to fund, one less strike fund, less insurance, etc...

How about easing up on those expensive rats, premium office space that ALPA finds, mailers, magazines, etc... other "companies" find ways to cut costs, why can't ALPA?

Before everyone gets all upset about this PROPOSED dues change, have you taken the time to figure out how much money you are talking about here? The HIGHEST change in any amount of dues I have heard so far is a whopping $11 a month. Now, I'm not saying $11 a month is not important, but I don't think it's anything to suggest changing unions for.

You say that ALPA lost expenses with USAir. That is true, however, every major airline at ALPA puts in more dues than they receive in services. This is due to the fact that the regional airlines, with the lower pay, do not generate enough dues revenue to function on their own. Therefore the regional MECs are subsidized in a way by the majors. That is why losing USAir hurts so much, because a lot of their money went to the unionized regional feed.

As Rez already pointed out, ALPA already has taken numerous cuts. Numerous staff members have been furloughed, the remaining can't get a raise. I can't imagine describing the ALPA building in Herndon as "premium office space".

 

[SaturnPilot]

You're absolutely correct...However ALPA is organized as "a bunch of bitter splintered little groups"....

Time for us all to go our separate ways....

I agree that ALPA is currently a "loose confederation of states", in a manner of speaking. To change that would require all of our pilot groups to cede power over their own future to ALPA National. Do you know of a way to make that happen?

At least by pooling our resources together we have access to what has been noted as the premium source for economic & financial analysis in the industry, a legal team very experienced in labor law, aeromedical doctors, the ability to affect change on capital hill, etc. How are we going to be better off as independents?

You have said before that you want Skywest and ASA to have one independent union. How will that union be able to function when it would not even make enough money to sustain any type of contract negotiations, large grievances, a strike, etc?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Before everyone gets all upset about this PROPOSED dues change, have you taken the time to figure out how much money you are talking about here? The HIGHEST change in any amount of dues I have heard so far is a whopping $11 a month. Now, I'm not saying $11 a month is not important, but I don't think it's anything to suggest changing unions for.

You say that ALPA lost expenses with USAir. That is true, however, every major airline at ALPA puts in more dues than they receive in services. This is due to the fact that the regional airlines, with the lower pay, do not generate enough dues revenue to function on their own. Therefore the regional MECs are subsidized in a way by the majors. That is why losing USAir hurts so much, because a lot of their money went to the unionized regional feed.

As Rez already pointed out, ALPA already has taken numerous cuts. Numerous staff members have been furloughed, the remaining can't get a raise. I can't imagine describing the ALPA building in Herndon as "premium office space".

It's over $25 a month for me......

It's being taken from the bottom tier with this so-called "brotherhood".....Since most of you strong ALPA cheerleaders are Obama left wingers.....shouldn't the shortfall come from the "rich" members.....That's how you want the income taxes to be...Why is it different with union dues?

This is only the beginning....ALPA is about to lose more members....Furloughs, ASTAR, and Atlas/Polar...Then they will come for more dues....

It would be one thing if ALPA had earned the dues increase....but cleary they haven't....

Has the ALPA President taken a paycut this year....or is ALPA looking to poor regional FOs instead?

Leadership...I don't see any....

 

[spudskier]

Your understanding of the 401K issue is not valid. If ALPA changes the policy then you will miss out on a few beers each month.... your 401k shall remain.
ALPA had a publishing facility in Dulles they shut it down. ALPA has recently furloughed employees and rejected a new contract for Unit II.

Is that enough cost cutting?

I am curious what your democratic participation in ALPA is.... voting, meeting attendance, etc.. IOW, what are you doing to make your career democracy better?

Those "few beers" are very valuable to me. Every cent counts right now as I approach a few mile stones in my life and student loans are still due. Regionals don't pay me enough for a "few beers" worth of money to not count. The way I understand it is that ALPA will take money pre everything, then comes 401k, then come taxes, then whatever's left over I get to send to my debtor or into savings and maybe, just maybe, I get to eat. (I'm not 1st year)

I don't know? Is it enough cost cutting? ALPA seems to still need more money.

ALPA does do good, I don't dispute that but I have a lot of issues with ALPA which would take this thread even farther away from it's original thoughts.

My participation? I attend meetings when I can, read everything I get when I can. I pay for it, might as well see what's goin on.

 

[SaturnPilot]

This is too easy.....



1. Open skies: There is a global pilot shortage and US ALPA pilots are leaving the US to work for non-US, non-ALPA carriers because they can make more money.....

do you honestly think open skies is not a threat?

2. Greater duty time could result in better and safer schedules....Duty time isn't what makes things unsafe.....It is better for a trans-con from the east coast to turn back and return to the east coast in the same day rather than go to the hotel and get 9 hours rest and come back as a red eye....

The regional folks regularly do 14-16 hour duty days with 6-7 approaches and landings....

Rest is the thing to go after....not flight time......

I think that if you're talking about extending duty time past 16 hours, that's pretty unsafe. Not to mention JetBlue's attempt to raise the max hours per day to 10

6. Poor FMLA rules - They're fine...3 days off and I can claim FMLA....Next strawman....

the current FMLA rules are anything but fine. Did you know numerous airlines deny FMLA to pilots on reserve because they state that because the pilot was on reserve and may not have been flown enough, he does not meet the requirement of working 1000 hours per year to be eligible for FMLA? What is that pilot supposed to do when having a baby?