United Family Unity Rally in California--the big rat

[JoeMerchant]

I Doubt ALPA national is using props like giant rats, its' not a big deal either way. On the other hand to suggest getting rid of ALPA continues to astound me. Management goes out of their way to anger, inconvenience, and frustrate us taking as much from our families as they can specifically to get us to fall apart and get rid of ALPA. How will you defend yourself as an individual without ALPA? We should be moving toward a true single national union not a bunch of bitter splintered little groups.

You're absolutely correct...However ALPA is organized as "a bunch of bitter splintered little groups"....

Time for us all to go our separate ways....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Have you been flying with Brian Wilson?

Brian Wilson and Shelton sign their names to their opinions....What is your name Mr. ALPA cheerleader?

John Breiling
former ALPA cheerleader

 

[SaturnPilot]

Less than ten percent of the U.S. workforce is unionized and somehow they make it. I will defend myself the same way they do. Professional mistakes are made throughout other industries and not everyone is fired. It is not in the best interest of a company to do that.

Jonathan Shelton--ASA

I'm guessing that less than ten percent of the US workforce is subject to as many potential career ending events as we are (being fired from just ONE job, ATC violations, any type of minor incident on your record, etc). There are numerous non-union airlines that function great in which the employees work for good management that protects their employees. On the other hand, you have companies like Mesa, Pinnacle, Northwest, etc, where I would not want to hold a non union job if I cared at all about my future career.

What specifically makes you want to be non-union at ASA?

 

[JoeMerchant]

This is too easy.....

Foreign Ownership
Open Skies
Greater flight time Duty time
Pay cuts- opps they already did that..
Work rule cuts- oops that too
gutted pensions- oops they did that too
Poor FMLA rules..
Indifference to TSA screening
MPL

Is that enough or do you want more?

1. Open skies: There is a global pilot shortage and US ALPA pilots are leaving the US to work for non-US, non-ALPA carriers because they can make more money.....

2. Greater duty time could result in better and safer schedules....Duty time isn't what makes things unsafe.....It is better for a trans-con from the east coast to turn back and return to the east coast in the same day rather than go to the hotel and get 9 hours rest and come back as a red eye....

The regional folks regularly do 14-16 hour duty days with 6-7 approaches and landings....

Rest is the thing to go after....not flight time......

3. "Pay cuts - opps they already did that" - With ALPA!

4. "Work rule cuts - Opps that too" - Again with ALPA!

5. "Gutted Pensions - oops they did that too " - Again with ALPA - However many ALPA pilots never had a pension anyways....and those that did didn't care that many of us didn't and needed to work past 60.

6. Poor FMLA rules - They're fine...3 days off and I can claim FMLA....Next strawman....

7. Indifference to TSA screening - It is the liberal folks that think the federal govt. can actually keep sharp objects off aircraft....It was ALPA that wanted federal employees to screen.....Look for bad people and leave the good people alone....

8. MPL - ALPA doesn't care about qualifications....They are currently too low and ALPA hasn't said a single thing about the current requirements.....Regarding MPL....ALPA isn't even opposed to it...ALPA has let everyone down on the qualification issue...and continues to with MPL....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I'm guessing that less than ten percent of the US workforce is subject to as many potential career ending events as we are (being fired from just ONE job, ATC violations, any type of minor incident on your record, etc). There are numerous non-union airlines that function great in which the employees work for good management that protects their employees. On the other hand, you have companies like Mesa, Pinnacle, Northwest, etc, where I would not want to hold a non union job if I cared at all about my future career.

What specifically makes you want to be non-union at ASA?

Honest question Saturn Pilot....Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa?

 

[SaturnPilot]

I'll be the first to admit that a union is a necessary evil in the airline world, but maybe a different one is in order.

The item de jour to tip the scales for me? Them wanting to take a percentage of my gross instead of my net now claiming it's because they lost US Air... This is money going towards my future, my 401k (one of the few benefits left the airline gives us) now you want to take away from my future? In my mind, if they lost US Air, then now only did they lose revenue, but they also lost a lot of expenses... fewer pilots to covers, one less MEC to fund, one less strike fund, less insurance, etc...

How about easing up on those expensive rats, premium office space that ALPA finds, mailers, magazines, etc... other "companies" find ways to cut costs, why can't ALPA?

Before everyone gets all upset about this PROPOSED dues change, have you taken the time to figure out how much money you are talking about here? The HIGHEST change in any amount of dues I have heard so far is a whopping $11 a month. Now, I'm not saying $11 a month is not important, but I don't think it's anything to suggest changing unions for.

You say that ALPA lost expenses with USAir. That is true, however, every major airline at ALPA puts in more dues than they receive in services. This is due to the fact that the regional airlines, with the lower pay, do not generate enough dues revenue to function on their own. Therefore the regional MECs are subsidized in a way by the majors. That is why losing USAir hurts so much, because a lot of their money went to the unionized regional feed.

As Rez already pointed out, ALPA already has taken numerous cuts. Numerous staff members have been furloughed, the remaining can't get a raise. I can't imagine describing the ALPA building in Herndon as "premium office space".

 

[SaturnPilot]

You're absolutely correct...However ALPA is organized as "a bunch of bitter splintered little groups"....

Time for us all to go our separate ways....

I agree that ALPA is currently a "loose confederation of states", in a manner of speaking. To change that would require all of our pilot groups to cede power over their own future to ALPA National. Do you know of a way to make that happen?

At least by pooling our resources together we have access to what has been noted as the premium source for economic & financial analysis in the industry, a legal team very experienced in labor law, aeromedical doctors, the ability to affect change on capital hill, etc. How are we going to be better off as independents?

You have said before that you want Skywest and ASA to have one independent union. How will that union be able to function when it would not even make enough money to sustain any type of contract negotiations, large grievances, a strike, etc?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Before everyone gets all upset about this PROPOSED dues change, have you taken the time to figure out how much money you are talking about here? The HIGHEST change in any amount of dues I have heard so far is a whopping $11 a month. Now, I'm not saying $11 a month is not important, but I don't think it's anything to suggest changing unions for.

You say that ALPA lost expenses with USAir. That is true, however, every major airline at ALPA puts in more dues than they receive in services. This is due to the fact that the regional airlines, with the lower pay, do not generate enough dues revenue to function on their own. Therefore the regional MECs are subsidized in a way by the majors. That is why losing USAir hurts so much, because a lot of their money went to the unionized regional feed.

As Rez already pointed out, ALPA already has taken numerous cuts. Numerous staff members have been furloughed, the remaining can't get a raise. I can't imagine describing the ALPA building in Herndon as "premium office space".

It's over $25 a month for me......

It's being taken from the bottom tier with this so-called "brotherhood".....Since most of you strong ALPA cheerleaders are Obama left wingers.....shouldn't the shortfall come from the "rich" members.....That's how you want the income taxes to be...Why is it different with union dues?

This is only the beginning....ALPA is about to lose more members....Furloughs, ASTAR, and Atlas/Polar...Then they will come for more dues....

It would be one thing if ALPA had earned the dues increase....but cleary they haven't....

Has the ALPA President taken a paycut this year....or is ALPA looking to poor regional FOs instead?

Leadership...I don't see any....

 

[spudskier]

Your understanding of the 401K issue is not valid. If ALPA changes the policy then you will miss out on a few beers each month.... your 401k shall remain.
ALPA had a publishing facility in Dulles they shut it down. ALPA has recently furloughed employees and rejected a new contract for Unit II.

Is that enough cost cutting?

I am curious what your democratic participation in ALPA is.... voting, meeting attendance, etc.. IOW, what are you doing to make your career democracy better?

Those "few beers" are very valuable to me. Every cent counts right now as I approach a few mile stones in my life and student loans are still due. Regionals don't pay me enough for a "few beers" worth of money to not count. The way I understand it is that ALPA will take money pre everything, then comes 401k, then come taxes, then whatever's left over I get to send to my debtor or into savings and maybe, just maybe, I get to eat. (I'm not 1st year)

I don't know? Is it enough cost cutting? ALPA seems to still need more money.

ALPA does do good, I don't dispute that but I have a lot of issues with ALPA which would take this thread even farther away from it's original thoughts.

My participation? I attend meetings when I can, read everything I get when I can. I pay for it, might as well see what's goin on.

 

[SaturnPilot]

This is too easy.....



1. Open skies: There is a global pilot shortage and US ALPA pilots are leaving the US to work for non-US, non-ALPA carriers because they can make more money.....

do you honestly think open skies is not a threat?

2. Greater duty time could result in better and safer schedules....Duty time isn't what makes things unsafe.....It is better for a trans-con from the east coast to turn back and return to the east coast in the same day rather than go to the hotel and get 9 hours rest and come back as a red eye....

The regional folks regularly do 14-16 hour duty days with 6-7 approaches and landings....

Rest is the thing to go after....not flight time......

I think that if you're talking about extending duty time past 16 hours, that's pretty unsafe. Not to mention JetBlue's attempt to raise the max hours per day to 10

6. Poor FMLA rules - They're fine...3 days off and I can claim FMLA....Next strawman....

the current FMLA rules are anything but fine. Did you know numerous airlines deny FMLA to pilots on reserve because they state that because the pilot was on reserve and may not have been flown enough, he does not meet the requirement of working 1000 hours per year to be eligible for FMLA? What is that pilot supposed to do when having a baby?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that ALPA is currently a "loose confederation of states", in a manner of speaking. To change that would require all of our pilot groups to cede power over their own future to ALPA National. Do you know of a way to make that happen?

Not with the mainline legacy folks in the same union....Maybe it will happen if we can get a union without the legacy "ego".....The legacy folks think they are a higher life form....They are the ones that are preventing a single union....

You have said before that you want Skywest and ASA to have one independent union. How will that union be able to function when it would not even make enough money to sustain any type of contract negotiations, large grievances, a strike, etc?

I want a single list at Skywest Inc.....I also want a union that doesn't oppose my company getting bigger with larger aircraft....Can ALPA do that? If so I am willing to stay....Otherwise it is time to leave....

 

[SaturnPilot]

Honest question Saturn Pilot....Would you rather work at Skywest or Mesa?

can I say neither

Skywest has better management than Mesa, and that along with the fact that Skywest wants to keep ALPA off property, probably factors in to the fact that it's a nicer place to work.

I just don't see how ASA would be better off without ALPA. What do you think will change there?

 

[SaturnPilot]

Has the ALPA President taken a paycut this year....or is ALPA looking to poor regional FOs instead?

Leadership...I don't see any....

I agree Prater should take a paycut if he's asking for more dues money. But, I don't think too many people have been impressed with much of anything he's done.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well out of 8 issues I addressed, you responded to only 3 of them....Here are the responses....

do you honestly think open skies is not a threat?

No I don't....My job is threatened by fellow ALPA pilots in this country....Both mainline and regional....I have mainline pilots trying to take my job when they get bumped back....I have mainline and regional ALPA pilots bidding against me for my flying....Deal with that issue than we can talk about other countries that don't even have enough pilots to cover their own flying....

I think that if you're talking about extending duty time past 16 hours, that's pretty unsafe. Not to mention JetBlue's attempt to raise the max hours per day to 10

Nobody is looking to extend the duty day...Flight hours don't matter to me....If I flew tran-cons....I would rather fly back to the east coast rather than go to the hotel for 9 or 10 hours and come back as a red eye.....Those of us at the regional level do 14 hour days with 8 hours of flying and 6 approaches/landings.... 9 hours of flying with 2 landings in that same 14 hours would be easier...

 

[SaturnPilot]

Not with the mainline legacy folks in the same union....Maybe it will happen if we can get a union without the legacy "ego".....The legacy folks think they are a higher life form....They are the ones that are preventing a single union....

it's no secret that there are people on both sides of this issue who's egos are standing in the way of any progress we can hope to make.

I want a single list at Skywest Inc.....I also want a union that doesn't oppose my company getting bigger with larger aircraft....Can ALPA do that? If so I am willing to stay....Otherwise it is time to leave....

well, it's not ALPA National that's opposing your company growing with larger aircraft, it's the Delta pilots. Going to an independent union at ASA is not going to fix that problem either.

How would the independent union work financially at ASA though? The numbers simply don't add up to anything successful. An independent union at that level will not be able to collect enough dues revenue to function, unless dues were closer to 5%

 

[JoeMerchant]

can I say neither

Skywest has better management than Mesa, and that along with the fact that Skywest wants to keep ALPA off property, probably factors in to the fact that it's a nicer place to work.

I just don't see how ASA would be better off without ALPA. What do you think will change there?

It's a simple question.....I'll take your answer as you would rather work at Skywest....

A good company trumps ALPA in this environment....

I think we can get a single list without ALPA....IMO ALPA is preventing that.....

In addition, ALPA is trying to limit my company through scope....I understand the argument...but that doesn't alter the fact that they want to limit my company....

The perfect answer would be an ALPA that "gets it"....but it is clear that isn't going to happen...Time for us to go our separate way and do what is best for us.....

 

[SaturnPilot]

No I don't....My job is threatened by fellow ALPA pilots in this country....Both mainline and regional....I have mainline pilots trying to take my job when they get bumped back....I have mainline and regional ALPA pilots bidding against me for my flying....Deal with that issue than we can talk about other countries that don't even have enough pilots to cover their own flying....

I certainly don't want to make that problem any worse by allowing Mexicana to compete with my job flying JFK-MIA. I think most of the mainline pilots would want a system that would not effect someone in your position. Most of the talk currently going on is for mainline pilots to get first rights on left seat positions created by any increase in flying at a regional due to a reduction in mainline flying.

Nobody is looking to extend the duty day...Flight hours don't matter to me....If I flew tran-cons....I would rather fly back to the east coast rather than go to the hotel for 9 or 10 hours and come back as a red eye.....Those of us at the regional level do 14 hour days with 8 hours of flying and 6 approaches/landings.... 9 hours of flying with 2 landings in that same 14 hours would be easier...

so if JetBlue got the max hours per day raised to 10, you don't think the regionals would try to make it so you could fly 10 hours in a 18 hour duty day and do 8 landings? It's just one more step in a direction we don't need to go.

 

[JoeMerchant]

it's no secret that there are people on both sides of this issue who's egos are standing in the way of any progress we can hope to make.

Can you clarify that....What position on our side is holding up the progress? Please specify what "ego" on our side...

well, it's not ALPA National that's opposing your company growing with larger aircraft, it's the Delta pilots. Going to an independent union at ASA is not going to fix that problem either.

How would the independent union work financially at ASA though? The numbers simply don't add up to anything successful. An independent union at that level will not be able to collect enough dues revenue to function, unless dues were closer to 5%

There is only "ALPA"....ALPA signs agreements that oppose our growth....We can stay and file DFR lawsuits or we can leave....I'm OK with either at this point....But we aren't going to get along in this environment....

As far as the numbers...There would have to be some belt tightening in addition to the fact that I think that we could eventually get the other "little folks" on board....ie CMR, EGL, PDT, etc....The numbers would even out in the long run.....Given the current situation, I expect the ALPA dues to go up as the ALPA membership continues to decline with ASTAR, Atlas, Polar, and furloughs....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Those "few beers" are very valuable to me. Every cent counts right now as I approach a few mile stones in my life and student loans are still due. Regionals don't pay me enough for a "few beers" worth of money to not count. The way I understand it is that ALPA will take money pre everything, then comes 401k, then come taxes, then whatever's left over I get to send to my debtor or into savings and maybe, just maybe, I get to eat. (I'm not 1st year)

I don't know? Is it enough cost cutting? ALPA seems to still need more money.

ALPA does do good, I don't dispute that but I have a lot of issues with ALPA which would take this thread even farther away from it's original thoughts.

My participation? I attend meetings when I can, read everything I get when I can. I pay for it, might as well see what's goin on.

Also know that the pilots at the regionals use the same formula as the legacy pilots. This effort is to align the regionals with the same dues formula as the legacy.

In other words, the regionals have a formula that allows them to pay less... than the legacy... this effort is to get everyone on the same formula.

Many see it as everyone pay the same rate.. not the legacy pilots a higher rate and the regionals a lower rate.

I am against it. I don't think it is the right time...


As to your last..... do you vote?

 

[SaturnPilot]

It's a simple question.....I'll take your answer as you would rather work at Skywest....

A good company trumps ALPA in this environment....

I think we can get a single list without ALPA....IMO ALPA is preventing that.....

In addition, ALPA is trying to limit my company through scope....I understand the argument...but that doesn't alter the fact that they want to limit my company....

The perfect answer would be an ALPA that "gets it"....but it is clear that isn't going to happen...Time for us to go our separate way and do what is best for us.....

ok, would you rather work at Expressjet or Skywest? We could have that argument all day. I did answer your question. I have no desire to work for either Skywest or Mesa. If I did work for Skywest or Mesa, I sure as hell would want ALPA on property though.