United Expects Friday To Be The Day

[Sonny Crockett]

How many on this board wished the demise of UAL?

 

[koko nw]

Any recallees getting SEA?

Good luck to all.

GP[/quote]

LOL SEA!!!!!!!! No freaken way. I was based out of there pre 9/11, the number 3 guy on the 300 FO list is now the number 3 guy from the bottom of the list in Seattle. I don't see a SEA bid for a very loooong time. But who knows stranger things have happened

It sounds like you have a pretty good gig where you are, yes the B&C funds totalling 15% is nice, taking a little bite out of the pathetic pay rates. The next year or so will be critical, hopefully it'll work out. It sounds like you have a tough decision.....Nice to have for sure.

Good luck to you, hope to see you on campus some day if it's right for ya, otherwise best wishes in your new adventure.

Koko

 

[WhiteCloud]

They're more than taken care of. Note that they're getting a very large equity stake in UAL. They ALWAYS get theirs.
The main losers here are the current and retired UAL employees; most everyone else suffered very little.

Don't forget the stockholders.

 

[Andy]

Any recallees getting SEA?

SEA remains VERY senior.

 

[Andy]

How many on this board wished the demise of UAL?

I did an extremely quick search, here's a thread you might find interesting:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=14059

While many do not openly cheer UAL's death, this thread dances around the subject. At this point (Feb 03), UAL's goose looked fully cooked and very few gave UAL any chance of getting off of life support.

And just in case anyone's wondering when Tilton took over, it was Sep 02.
I think that many have forgotten just how deep a hole UAL has climbed out of. I hope that this little flashback helps explain why I think that Tilton has done a great job saving UAL and deserves a decent bonus for his efforts. It looks like he's gained 25 pounds and aged more than a decade since taking over the helm of UAL 3 1/2 years ago.

There were enough threads openly discussing the death of UAL and USAirways (USAirways was a more popular topic, since they were expected to die before UAL) that one got easily got the impression that there were many here wanting to see the plug pulled on United.
I always like the posts that read: 'I'd hate to see them go ... it looks like they'll be gone.' Subtle.
The posts in 2004 turned into people being pissed off UAL hadn't gone away and reduced capacity.

 

[Andy]

Don't forget the stockholders.

Sorry, you're absolutely correct. The stockholders and employees were the main ones burnt in UAL's chap 11.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

At least we still have a SEA base....

I am crying over MIA shutting down!

 

[Andy]

Sorry, I was just trying to become better informed of the situation. I can honestly say I don't know that much about it and it sounds like some of the management is still around and some of it isn't. I don't know if Tilton was there prior or not. I know it suck when someone jumps into a long running conversation when they don't know anything at all about the subject. Just curious though.

Bizicmo et al, I dug up Tilton's Bio on a business website. The link is:
http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/biography/S-Z/Tilton-Glenn-1948.html

You'll note the following paragraph:

"Tilton had conditioned his acceptance of the top job at UAL on the removal of the company president Rono Dutta and the CFO Andy Studdert. In the months that followed his appointment, he disposed of another half-dozen senior executives and handpicked the team of managers that would assist him. Tilton's top lieutenants became Frederic Brace, who was named executive vice president and CFO, and Douglas Hacker, Brace's predecessor, who was given the newly created post of executive vice president of strategy."

 

[Boeingman]

Sorry, you're absolutely correct. The stockholders and employees were the main ones burnt in UAL's chap 11.

And unsecured creditors.

 

[WhiteCloud]

And unsecured creditors.

As well as contractors that invested lots of money to fulfill contracts and then had to try to figure out what to do when the contract was renegotiated/dictated.

 

[koko nw]

Just like it happened at US Air X 2, CAL X 2 !!, America West, TWA X 3, ect....

Boeing man I'm not saying it's right, but the precedence has been set, BY OTHERS and nary a whimper from the grand stand. Why?

UAL would be foolish not to use any and all means available to survive and hopefully prosper.

Koko

 

[boeing747-800]

Hope they will prosper too.

 

[exepress]

to the "pilots" of this post who seem to have a clamor for a pay raise for the current ceo....i lost most of my pension and it sounds like you did as well....get a clue.

 

[Andy]

to the "pilots" of this post who seem to have a clamor for a pay raise for the current ceo....i lost most of my pension and it sounds like you did as well....get a clue.

I not only lost my pension, I lost my job (I've been furloughed for almost 4 years). But it wasn't thanks to Tilton; Goodwin (and to a lesser extent Creighton) was responsible for that.
Funny thing is, 'ol Jimmy Goodwin was chosen as CEO over Nardelli, current Home Depot CEO, as Greenwald's replacement. Why? Because Mad Dog Dubo thought that Nardelli was going to be too tough on us unions, so he got a patsy, Jimmy Goodwin, elected to CEO. Between Jimmy and Rono Dutta, they came up with the brilliant idea of buying USAirways for many multiples its value along with the Avolar concept. So, UAL's senior management spent a couple of years diverting UAL resources and flushing tons of cash down the crapper on stupid ideas. All the time, Mad Dog was saying that the takeover of USAirways was a good thing for UAL. Jimmy and Rono's trip on the road to nowhere left UAL woefully unprepared for the events of 9/11. Would Nardelli have done better? I don't know, but he's been able to navigate Home Depot through a rough stretch where Lowe's has been conducting a full scale assault on Home Depot.

When Tilton took over the helm of United, UAL was pretty much written off as a soon to be deceased legacy; souvenir hunters were starting to buy up UAL paraphenalia. Holly Hegeman had UAL on the 'Titanic watch.' By the time that SARS hit, I didn't expect to work another day at United. You can say that Tilton had nothing to do with UAL surviving that time period and is now about to emerge from BK, but I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. He made a lot of difficult decisions. Yes, he extracted a lot of concessions from the work force, chiefly the pilot group. But, as many more senior pilots kept reminding those of us who were furloughed, our furlough was 'for the survival of the company.' And need I remind you that C2003 passed by a majority vote of the pilots? This sodomizing of the pilots (and other labor groups) by management was completely consentual. All of the employee pay and benefit cuts have been painful, but I'd rather go back to a job at UAL than to be able to add a dead company to my resume.
I'm not clamoring for a pay raise for Tilton, he's just another overpaid CEO; all CEOs are overpaid. But if I were to choose between Tilton and an incompetent overpaid CEO, I'd take Tilton any day.

 

[G4G5]

Andy,
You and I have gone around with this before. I can't sing the same praises for Tilton. I think anyone who is looking to bring a company out of CH11, whose business plan is predicated on $50 a barrel oil is a fool.

Todays price is $68.48 cents. Off the top of my head that's 20% higher then he needs to pull a $915 million profit. I don't have the numbers on the road with me but what happens to costs for every penny the price of oil goes up?

Why come out now? You have Osama and Iraq and your target oil price is $18.48 above what you need. Once you come out you are subject to the new BK laws.

Once again I only wish the best for the UAL employees but this guy is a moron. He is going to take his stock and cash out. This time next year what kind of cash reserves will you have with oil remaining North of $60 for a year.


United Airlines Gets Clearance
To Exit Bankruptcy Protection
By SUSAN CAREY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
January 21, 2006; Page A4

UAL Corp.'s United Airlines got the green light Friday to emerge from bankruptcy-court protection in early February, ending the largest, longest-running airline reorganization in history.
In Chicago, U.S. Bankruptcy Court Judge Eugene Wedoff, who earlier in the week resolved a thicket of 11th-hour objections, approved the amended reorganization document, clearing United to issue new shares and give its unsecured creditors stock for their claims. The carrier's creditors earlier voted for the plan.
United hopes to emerge on Feb. 1, after a legal-appeals period expires, and it finalizes its $3 billion exit-financing package and selects a market on which to trade its new stock.
While some issues related to the bankruptcy case remain to be litigated, Judge Wedoff effectively ended United's nearly 38-month stay in Chapter 11 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code. "If there is not a feeling of exultation in the room, perhaps at least there could be a feeling of relief," the judge told the courtroom. "Three years ago, United Airlines was, bluntly, in danger of dying, with all of its assets liquidated and all of its jobs lost." But through the disappointments and compromise of the bankruptcy-court process, he said, the company "once again has the potential to be a profitable investment, a reliable business partner and a stable employer."
Jake Brace, UAL's chief financial officer, said the company on Monday will close the syndication of its exit financing, which is being provided by J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Citigroup Inc. and General Electric Co. Proceeds will allow United to repay $1.1 billion owed on an interim bankruptcy loan and top up its cash balance.
United hasn't announced its new ticker symbol, nor has it decided whether the new shares will trade on the New York Stock Exchange or the Nasdaq Stock Market.
On the day the company formally emerges, its existing common and preferred shares will be canceled. The 125 million new shares are expected to start trading at around $15, according to estimates by United and its financial advisers, giving the company an equity value of $1.9 billion. On that basis, unsecured creditors are expected to reap four cents to eight cents on each dollar of their claims.
But recent trading in bankruptcy claims and UAL's unsecured bonds has indicated that UAL's new stock might perform much better, giving creditors more of a recovery. "I've learned not to predict stock prices or values," Mr. Brace said. The airline's 400 executives are in line to receive 8% of the new shares in stock options or restricted stock, with the awards vesting over four years.
United, the nation's second-largest airline by traffic behind AMR Corp.'s American Airlines, is a far different company than it was when it sought protection from its creditors in late 2002. At the time, it suffered from a general downturn in air travel, the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks -- when two of its jetliners were hijacked -- and outsized costs and low productivity that stemmed from a failed experiment in employee ownership during the late 1990s.
Its stay in court protection initially was expected to last 18 months. But a federal panel empowered to grant loan guarantees to help airlines with liquidity troubles after 9/11 three times rejected UAL's bid for aid. So United was forced to address its shortcomings at a time when the industry was being roiled by high fuel expenses and growing pressure from low-cost discount carriers.
United has incurred $13 billion in losses in the past four years.
While in court protection, Chicago-based United shed $7 billion in annual expenses. Its employees made two rounds of concessions and lost their defined-benefit pension plans, which were underfunded and handed off to the government. Now the carrier is betting that its lower costs and improved revenue performance will return it to profitability.
United's five-year business plan covering the period through 2010 is predicated on its traffic, capacity and percentage of seats filled remaining more or less constant, according to bankruptcy-court documents. It believes its mainline unit revenue, or passenger revenue taken in for each seat flown a mile, will rise a little more than 2% a year, down from 5.2% growth in 2005.
It also forecasts that long-term oil prices will be about $50 a barrel. Based on that scenario, UAL expects to report operating profit of $915 million this year, not including an $11.3 billion accounting gain it will book related to the bankruptcy case.

 

[Andy]

Andy,
You and I have gone around with this before. I can't sing the same praises for Tilton. I think anyone who is looking to bring a company out of CH11, whose business plan is predicated on $50 a barrel oil is a fool.

Todays price is $68.48 cents. Off the top of my head that's 20% higher then he needs to pull a $915 million profit. I don't have the numbers on the road with me but what happens to costs for every penny the price of oil goes up?

Why come out now? You have Osama and Iraq and your target oil price is $18.48 above what you need. Once you come out you are subject to the new BK laws.

G4G5, I watched painfully on the sidelines as everyone predicted the death of UAL. Is Tilton perfect? No way!
While he may have publically passed off $50 a barrel oil in the business plan, he has quietly hedged behind the scenes. I don't have the figures on it, but it's a decent percentage of UAL's usage. And UAL didn't stop hedging at $50/barrel; they kept hedging as it got higher. Another little thing that he's done is securing for UAL pipeline usage into the major airports. He locked up all of the remaining pipeline capacity into the DC area almost two years ago, as well as made sure that there would not be any supply interruptions at other major hubs. It's those little behind the scenes moves that we don't hear much about. And don't forget, he's an ex-oilman who knows what's currently happening in the business; I'm sure that he calls up his buds from ChevronTexaco on a regular basis.

The current cash on hand will more than cover DIP loans and the $3 Bil loans upon emergence will provide UAL cushion for quite a while. UAL's emerging prior to the summer season; the best time of year for airlines.

Here's another thread from the past, when it finally looked like UAL's darkest days were over (Feb 04):
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=29367
Makes for interesting reading.

Do I think that Tilton's the greatest thing since sliced bread? No, but given that he followed in the footsteps of Goodwin and Creighton, the bar wasn't set all that high for him.

 

[WhiteCloud]

On the day the company formally emerges, its existing common and preferred shares will be canceled. The 125 million new shares are expected to start trading at around $15, according to estimates by United and its financial advisers, giving the company an equity value of $1.9 billion.

On that basis, unsecured creditors are expected to reap four cents to eight cents on each dollar of their claims.

Reap? Please.

 

[G4G5]

Andy,
I hope you are right but their are some non believers (like Philip Baggaley of Standards & Poors) other then me.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2006-01-22-united-cover-usat_x.htm?csp=N009

'More complicated'
Not everyone is a fan of the changes. Airline consultant Mo Garfinkle, who advised the creditors committee during the restructuring, remains concerned about the complexity of the retooled operation and questions whether the new services are profitable.
"United hasn't restructured its basic business," he says. "They have made the business more complicated, not simpler. They still think they should be all things to all people."

United has been losing market share in all five of its hub cities, with the deepest loss in Denver — a 55% market share vs. 73% in 2000.

Baggaley of Standard & Poor's worries about the United balance sheet. United is leaving bankruptcy with more than $17 billion in debt, even after chopping away $8 billion in Chapter 11. That leaves the carrier highly leveraged compared with most companies.
United projects it will break even or turn a profit in 2006, but Baggaley forecasts a modest loss. United's business plan assumes $50-a-barrel oil prices, on average, ahead. S&P, by contrast, predicts $60 a barrel this year and $55 a barrel next year.

United faces intangible risks, too. Despite angry union opposition, the carrier leaves Chapter 11 with a new management incentive plan that rewards 400 executives with a total of 10 million stock shares, 8% of the reorganized company.
"If the stock price goes up and 400 people get really wealthy, I hope the employees don't revolt," says Swelbar.
Airline spokeswoman Jean Medina contends the executives' equity stake is needed to retain top performers and tie the company's success to executive rewards.

If it smells like it and looks like it................... Tilton and Brace realize that with the recent run in airlines stocks NOW is going to be the best time for them to cash in on their boat load of stock options.

This is what Grienstein recently said about the price of fuel at Delta:"Every time jet fuel prices go up by a penny per gallon, it costs Delta an extra $25 million per year because the airline uses 2.5 billion gallons in a typical year"

Lets assume that UAL uses close to the same amount of fuel annualy as DAL. So at $25 mill per penny, an increase of $1 dollar equals a $2,500,000,000 increase. Thats $2.5 billion per dollar increase. Now Baggaley of the S&P feels oil will be at $60 all year. Thats $10 over the $50 a barrel, the UAL geniuses feel they need to make just $915 million in profit. FYI a $10 a barrel increase equates to a $25 BILLION dollar loss!

Or another way to look at it is UAL $915 million dollar profit will be wiped out if Oil rises just 36 cents. So anything above $50.36 and they are losing money.

IMHO, they are looking to cash in on their stock options at the expense of the employees.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

G4G5,

Don't know why you are so concerned about UAL, but anyway.....Tilton has told the UAL employee group that UAL will break even with oil at $67.

I know you wish our demise, sorry AINT GONNA HAPPEN

 

[G4G5]

G4G5,

Don't know why you are so concerned about UAL, but anyway.....Tilton has told the UAL employee group that UAL will break even with oil at $67.

I know you wish our demise, sorry AINT GONNA HAPPEN

Please provide me with the quote. this is the first I have seen of that figure.

I am quoting Jack Brace from Saturday's WSJ:
It also forecasts that long-term oil prices will be about $50 a barrel. Based on that scenario, UAL expects to report operating profit of $915 million this year

 

[tomcash]

Please provide me with the quote. this is the first I have seen of that figure.

I am quoting Jack Brace from Saturday's WSJ:
It also forecasts that long-term oil prices will be about $50 a barrel. Based on that scenario, UAL expects to report operating profit of $915 million this year

G4G5, get over it...

AA will always be second to United...

Anyhow, why do you support such a company that laid you off??

 

[Mugs]

A 25 billion loss with a $10 increase in the price of crude. Hmmmm. Has any airline in history ever spent anywhere near 20 billion for fuel in one year? That would have to be some extremely pricey fuel considering Delta uses 2.5 billon gallons a year. Crude has gone from 35 to 70 over the last 2 years. G4G5 I think you are using simple arithmetic to draw a simplistic conclusion based on numbers you are pulling out of the newspaper (not the first time you have done that trying to prove UAL was dead by the way). I think the big picture is far more complex than that. If your point is that the business plan of UAL or any legacy carrier has some real and obvious risks, then your point is taken.

 

[skykid]

G4G5, when is the PBGC going to liquidate United? That's what you said, isn't it? Let me know if it is going to be next month because WhiteClould's latest prediction for UAL liquidation is still next month.

 

[boeing747-800]

relax it's a new year and a new start for United...I'm optimistic about it doing well. It better

 

[G4G5]

Stick your head back in the sand. Yeah, it's just me or you could actually read the WSJ, USA Today(I have already posted) and the below Forbes article. Or any of the countless others.

When do Airlines report profits? After the summer. Not after the winter. So do any of you financial geniuses have a good reason why UAL mgt has decided to exit ch11 now and not wait a couple of months? I am sure that it has nothing to do with the fact that AMR and CAL have almost doubled over the past 9 months. How are they paid stock options. They want $15 a share. They weren't going to get it 6-9 months ago when AMR and CAL were selling at $11. Now that AMR and CAL are in the $18-22 range, $15 seems reasonable for UAL. Who cares if the company is not ready or the fact that you could lose $7+ billion in tax credits. They want to get theirs before the higher oil prices bring the airline stocks back to reality


http://www.forbes.com/business/2005/09/07/airlines-bankruptcy-united_cz_mt_0907ual.html
Airlines
UAL Bankruptcy Breakdown
Mark Tatge, 09.07.05, 6:30 PM ET
CHICAGO - United Airlines parent UAL (otc: UALAQ - news - people ) will leave bankruptcy a smaller airline, heavily leveraged, and should lose $250 million next year, according to a Forbes.com analysis of the documents filed Wednesday with the federal bankruptcy court.

The losses are predicated on crude oil prices remaining above $60 per barrel, a likely scenario given forecasts calling for a shortage of jet-fuel refining capacity for the next three to five years, well after the shockwaves of Hurricane Katrina fade. United could spend $4 billion next year on fuel--$600 million more than anticipated--wiping out the any profits the carrier might generate.
Filings show CEO Glenn Tilton has trimmed billions in costs, mostly by shrinking the airline. Annual salary and pension costs were trimmed $3.2 billion annually. Aircraft rents were reduced nearly $190 million. Tilton slashed United’s capacity or available seat miles by 20% since 2000, with passenger revenue only taking an 8% haircut.

United now has among the lowest operating costs of the major legacy carriers, estimated to be at 7.56 cents per available seat mile (9.98 cents with fuel), giving United a major advantage over AMR’s (nyse: AMR - news - people ) American Airlines, Delta Air Lines (nyse: DAL - news - people ), Northwest Airlines (nasdaq: NWAC - news - people ) and Continental.

But Tilton also faces major challenges. The three biggest: putting the brakes on fuel costs, boosting revenue and repaying debt.

Here’s the outlook for the airline based on an analysis of its long-awaited plan of bankruptcy reorganization, which has yet to be approved by the court.

Debt. United will be heavily leveraged once it leaves bankruptcy. Only 14% of UAL’s capital structure will be equity. And that figure hinges on raising $1.9 billion in new common equity. The rest is bank and aircraft debt totaling more than $9 billion. Interest payments will run some $500 million per year.

Fuel. United uses $45 to $50 per barrel crude oil to forecast profits through 2010, or about $1.55 for a gallon of jet fuel.

But prices should remain above $60 for West Texas Intermediate at least through 2007, says Vaughn Cordle, chief analyst with Airline Forecasts, an economic forecasting firm.

Jet fuel should run $1.89 per gallon next year, or 34 cents more per gallon than what United forecasts. At 2.2 billion gallons annually, that comes to an additional $748 million for fuel.

Cordle says the gap between a barrel of crude and jet fuel refined from that crude has only widened in recent weeks. Crude hit $70 per barrel, but jet fuel prices were running $100 per barrel. This difference isn’t expected to change given shortages in refining capacity. The spread between the crude oil and jet fuel is three times higher than it was 1990 to 2004.

Revenue. Next year, United forecasts 2.6% growth in core passenger revenue per available seat mile, or about half 2005’s increase. Much of the growth has come from shifting traffic overseas.

But the industry is raising prices to cover fuel costs. Higher ticket prices could result in more empty seats per mile flown as customers curtail flying. United forecasts mainline passenger revenue growing from $13.1 billion in 2006 to $14.4 billion in 2010.

Profits. United projects a profit, excluding special items from the bankruptcy reorganization, of $349 million next year.

But the airline could easily end up paying $400 to $600 million for fuel next year.

Viewed another way, higher fuel prices would consume more out half of the $916 million operating profit the airline forecasts. Profits are expected to grow to $1.5 billion on a pre-tax basis by 2010.

United, however, forecasts its fuel bill to be $3.4 billion, falling from this year’s $3.75 billion. (RED FLAG HELLO!)

But that presumes a moderation in fuel prices. If fuel prices don’t drop, they could jeopardize United’s ability to repay its debt, forcing yet another restructuring.

Taxes. The airline has $7.5 billion in tax losses that can be used to reduce future tax liabilities. But these losses are worthless to United if the airline doesn’t produce a profit.

But they could prove valuable to investors. Hedge funds or other private equity investors may want to take control of United to take advantage of these losses, in an effort to offset taxable income. The filing estimates United’s enterprise value at $10.3 billion.

The UAL Corporate Restructuring Information documents can be viewed at http://www.pd-ual.com/.

Yep it's just me.....

 

[WhiteCloud]

G4G5, when is the PBGC going to liquidate United? That's what you said, isn't it? Let me know if it is going to be next month because WhiteClould's latest prediction for UAL liquidation is still next month.

Right or wrong I'll stand by it. February 2006.

 

[G4G5]

G4G5, when is the PBGC going to liquidate United? That's what you said, isn't it? Let me know if it is going to be next month because WhiteClould's latest prediction for UAL liquidation is still next month.

Are you proud that your pension got dumped on the tax payers?

Forbes places the value for UAL at over $10 billion. I would have much rather seen UAL liquidated and that $10 billion given to the PBGC to distribute to the UAL employees. Here's a thought give the UAL employees the pension that they worked for. This goes beyond UAL, I would rather see that happen to USAir, Delphi, GM, whomever.

It's supply and demand. The folks who fly UAL would still keep flying. The industry would not lose those jobs. The pilots at UAL would be just like those at TWA pilots, who found jobs at AA, Fedex, UPS, Airtran, Jetblue, AmericaWest, SWA. I could go on. The difference is they would have pensions from UAL when they retire and companies would think twice about dumping their pensions.

No instead we now have a trend that companies like IBM, Verizon and soon to be countless others will be following. The dumping of the American pension system.

I am glad you can come on FI and gloat about it.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Are you proud that your pension got dumped on the tax payers?

Forbes places the value for UAL at over $10 billion. I would have much rather seen UAL liquidated and that $10 billion given to the PBGC to distribute to the UAL employees. Here's a thought give the UAL employees the pension that they worked for. This goes beyond UAL, I would rather see that happen to USAir, Delphi, GM, whomever.

It's supply and demand. The folks who fly UAL would still keep flying. The industry would not lose those jobs. The pilots at UAL would be just like those the TWA pilots, at AA, Fedex, UPS, Airtran, Jetblue, AmericaWest, SWA. I could go on. The difference is they would have pensions from UAL when they retire and companies would think twice about dumping their pensions

No instead we now have a trend that companies like IBM, Verizon and soon to be countless others will be following. The dumping of the American pension system.

I am glad you can come on FI and gloat about it.

All very good points. Over the past three years UAL has continued to burn through money they owed to others and misused the bankruptcy laws to beat up on their own people and contractors. Some of the gloating here can't be from real UAL pilots.....most of the pilots I know there are embarrased by their company's behavior.

 

[G4G5]

A 25 billion loss with a $10 increase in the price of crude. Hmmmm. Has any airline in history ever spent anywhere near 20 billion for fuel in one year? That would have to be some extremely pricey fuel considering Delta uses 2.5 billon gallons a year. Crude has gone from 35 to 70 over the last 2 years. G4G5 I think you are using simple arithmetic to draw a simplistic conclusion based on numbers you are pulling out of the newspaper (not the first time you have done that trying to prove UAL was dead by the way). I think the big picture is far more complex than that. If your point is that the business plan of UAL or any legacy carrier has some real and obvious risks, then your point is taken.

You hit the nail on the head, . All I was trying to point out is that I just don't see how you can come out of the old bk laws, protections, in the middle of winter, with Osama, with Iran and most importantly oil at $67. The dollar figure is irrelevant, what is relevant is the business plan is based upon $50 oil and no one thinks their will be $50 oil. Whats relevant is at current oil prices UAL will not turn a profit and will lose $7+ billion in tax credits.

Why? What's the rush! It's been 3 years, wait a few more months.

The only reason I can come up with is mgt watched the recent run on CAL and AMR stock and they got nothing. Now upper mgt wants to take their newly issued stock and cash out.

Look I harbor no ill will to-wards the UAL employees. My old man spent 25 years at Pan Am only to walk away with the PBGC guarantee, so I have an understanding of what is going on. This is not about the employees. Something about this smells funny. Good luck.

 

[FlyUnited]

But the fact is that United was abiding by the laws of the land. Simple really. You may not like it but as long as the law is followed, they were prudent to use the law in their favor...and they did.

CAL did this ten years ago and came out stronger for it, now it's Uniteds turn.

I'm sorry that you hold such a chip on your shoulder over this but perhaps it's time you took a deep breath and let it go. United is coming out a stronger carrier.