United/Continental Scope

[PBRstreetgang]

Really? I have a hard time believing both MECs and over 50% of the pilot groups will agree to that.

They will "establish" a sub par pay scale, and staff it with the same guys who were flying them just a few months ago at a regional. This will be the new "B" scale. The more you think you are different, the more you are the same as your predecessors. If you think MGMT will let go of their divide and conquer process easily, you are kidding yourself.
PBR

 

[NoJoy]

I think it's a great idea that eventually there will be no rj larger than a fifty seater flying under this "new" airline flag. And the current furloughed pilots from both airlines would agree. But I have a feeling you will see a Crj 700 in the new Continental colors in the near future-

 

[79%N1]

Got to agree with PBR. The planes if ever forced to mainline will go at a wage that is substandard of what the regionals are flying them for! Need proof, look at the Delta scale for planes already at DCI. So what does taking the airframes to mainline do for the pilots there? The pilots already have jobs there. So are you telling me that your new stance on scope is because you are looking out for us regional guys and our future jobs flying planes we already fly, but now at mainline - but for less money?? No thanks! Who are you really looking out for, and who are you hurting?

 

[CX880]

Wow, I guess the meds aren't working, huh? The only people who stick their butts further into the air than regional pilots are the mainline pilots, they would shove each other under the bus faster than than they would regional pilots, reason? If they stab each other from the same seniority list the payoff is quicker. You were the same putz's who got a chubbie when you got to fly the regional "9" and now are gonna take it all up with you. Newsflash next time you are flying look over at the guy sitting next to you, he would sell your kids into slavery for an additional $3.00 per hr, and another day off per month. Pilots on the whole are some of the most pathetic snivelers I have ever met. You will pay to play, work for substandard wages to get to the next step, and when and if you get there will stab each other for any additional perks that treachery will allow. Now go back to your Dr Evil plans to rule the world. Come back in 5 years, your company will offer the potential for 787s if you just allow a few C Series at Peenuckle to fill the gaps until "YOUR" 787 hits the property, and you will slam your boner in the car door trying to get to HDQ to sign off on the "promise"
PBR

WTF? All this talk coming from the one that flys a CRJ9 at a regional airline. For 3 dollars more per hour than the lowest CRJ7 rates.

 

[Jetjockey]

Really? And just where is that happening? Other than the Usairways DHC-8 fleet (which is much smaller than 5-8 yrs ago) and some 400's for CoEx at Colgan, I can't think of one major flying many (Skywest and Mesaba for Delta/United and shrinking/going away) and certainly none replacing Jets with Turboprops.

Horizon.
FlyBe (Europe)
Colgan
Lynx (before the buyout by RP)
Jazz

just to name a few.

 

[Jetjockey]

It looks to me like they're being replaced with ~70 seat jets.

Which is why anything over 50 seats belongs to mainline scope.

 

[79%N1]

Horizon.
FlyBe (Europe)
Colgan
Lynx (before the buyout by RP)
Jazz

just to name a few.

And where is there any data to back up that these carriers are "replacing Jets with turboprops"? Lynx is gone. Not sure about Europe, but TProps are not as "taboo" to Euro's.

That is a pretty small sample......

 

[PBRstreetgang]

WTF? All this talk coming from the one that flys a CRJ9 at a regional airline. For 3 dollars more per hour than the lowest CRJ7 rates.

Turd burglar,
Coming from a booger eating, mouth breathing half wit, its hard to understand anything you say.I have pegged this industry and how it operates from very early on. Hulas, decides to corn hole his very own employee group, and YOU, hand him th cob. The only satisfaction I get is knowing your time is coming up sooner than you think. If you aren't from Hulas's caste, you are poo, and I am gonna bet you aren't from Hulas's caste, so guess what bag you are left holding? My only hope is you find some half retarded flight attendant and get her too drunk to realize you are naked and on top of her and bareback too boot, knock her up and have a batch of lil tards. She sobers up and hits you with child support, because she won't have anything to do with you, except cash your checks.
But I digress
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Which is why anything over 50 seats belongs to mainline scope.

You are exactly right, but unringing that bell won't be cheap, if at all possible.
PBR

 

[bvt1151]

It's so cute hearing you guys beat your war drums while 60% + of your comrades continue to vote your scope away piece by piece. The fundamental force driving the migration of scope limits that you need to understand is that you either buy scope protection, or get paid to relax it.

How much of a pay cut are you willing to take at mainline to buy back scope? Better yet, how much of a pay cut are the senior captains willing to take? So far, the answer at every single airline has been $0. You will not buy back scope. As someone said, that horse is out of the gate, hit by a truck, and is dog food. You can't unopen Pandora's box.

So now the question is, how much are you willing to sell scope relaxation for? Of course we all know what the members of this forum will say, but let's face it, history is a hell of a lot louder than your drums.

But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that somehow you're going to be able to defy history and the greedy upper 2/3's of the seniority list by keeping scope exactly where it is right now. They'll still be able to add unlimited 70-seaters under the United scope. Want that spigit turned off? You'll have to buy it back.

The elephant in the thread that nobody seems to want to talk about is Continental's latest offer of Delta +1%. That's a nice little chunk of change the United pilots are certainly going to go for, if offered. Don't forget the Delta + 1% includes the 76-seaters as well.

So the question comes back: Is your pilot group (not just you) willing to buy back scope with pay cuts? I'd say we see 60/40 ratification of Delta + 1%. Then you'll be back talking about how you'll be holding the line at 76. The good news there, though, is that I think you can hold the line at 76 seat.

No airline has broken through that 76-seat glass ceiling yet, but they've obliterated the 50-seat ceiling. Hold the line where we can hold the line. Otherwise, the alternating stage-climb of scope relaxations will continue. There's even been talk of the new C-Series being flown at regionals, which should be too absurd for airlines to even discuss. Unfortunately, they're just drawing out the trend, and we've quite a reputation of putting out.

 

[Homer Jay]

It's so obvious who the Regional posters and the Major posters are on this thread. I'll say it again, scope is not for sale. Mark my words.

 

[NoJoy]

It's so obvious who the Regional posters and the Major posters are on this thread. I'll say it again, scope is not for sale. Mark my words.

I hope your right. Time will tell; we will be re-visiting this thread in the future to see who won.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The target isn't small jets. The target is over 50 seats. That's where the growth is. Economics will slowly weed out the glut of 50 seaters. They are already being replaced by efficient turboprops.

So 50 seats is a "small jet" and 65 seats isn't? That logic got us into this mess in the first place. The 65-76 seat jets will have to be "bought" if the mainline wants them...and it won't be cheap.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Really? I have a hard time believing both MECs and over 50% of the pilot groups will agree to that.

That maybe true....but then they won't get the small jet flying....How much are you willing to "pay" for it?

 

[Scope out RJ's]

The only possible way the small jet flying MAY come back to mainline is if they undercut the current regional rates and start them off at year one longevity....Now why would I want to start all over again flying the same airplane for much less money and a worse schedule?

Because this time you won't have to buy your job!

It's a suckers bet....

......says the biggest one!

 

[bvt1151]

So 50 seats is a "small jet" and 65 seats isn't? That logic got us into this mess in the first place. The 65-76 seat jets will have to be "bought" if the mainline wants them...and it won't be cheap.

They really don't like to hear this truth. They're more interested in trying to hold a line that can't be held, rather than moving back to the 76-seat line where everybody else is that can be held.

But it's more about their pride than actually stopping scope creep. If they don't move back, scope is going to be at 90, then 100 seats before they even know what hit them.

Every mainline pilot needs to ask themselves a question. Are they more interested in stopping scope creep, or in making loud noises while their senior counterparts sell them out?

 

[Jetjockey]

It's the simple fact that a turbo-prop will not be utilized on the same stage lengths as a jet, therefore less of a mainline replacement on longer routes. My all time favorite. what are you willing to give up? NOTHING!!! I agree, it won't be cheap to stop the outsourcing. This time it won't be labor paying, it will be management.

Delta plus $1 sucks. Everyone in the world knows this was a concessionary agreement while both companies were in bankruptcy. It's a pay cut for CAL pilots, and UAL pilots know they are due much more.

Pull up a chair, the fight is coming. Scope is more of a priority than you guys realize. It won't be give away like before. To the pilots who say it can't be done.........Set your goals low, you'll hit them every time.

SCOPE is not for sale! Any agreement that gives up one seat above 50 is a NO vote for me. Honestly, I doubt anything that relaxes scope will even get past the negotiating committee.

 

[johnpeace]

If I had to bet, I would bet on a restructuring of the industry where 'regional' airlines (with their pay-scales, work rules and lower qualifications) simply take over most of the domestic flying.

I foresee this simply because it's consistent with trends in aviation and in other industries...the race to the bottom and the Walmartization of American labor is not new.

The idea that aviation is going to go backwards up the trend-line and restore pay/benefits, QOL, prosperity to it's workers (at cost to the corporations they work for) just seems to fantastic for me to give it any serious thought.

The idea that our organized labor leaders are going to be the force that take us there is even more fantastic.

Nothing personal, and I personally think it sucks for America and the industry, it's just the trend I've recognized.

All part of that 'new normal' they've been trying to convince us to accept.

We can check back in 5 years to consider the veracity of this prediction...but I see growth at the 'regionals' with them morphing into 'nationals' doing the bulk of domestic US flying in competition with LCCs.

It just seems far more likely and more aligned with existing trends than 'taking it back!' does.