United and CAL SLI for furloughed pilots

[Fly2AK]

So as a furloughed United guy what are the predictions on what will happen to us? I am currently flying and making good money but it is as an expat, I would love to make it back home one day but I am hoping I have a home to come back to.

 

[ATRCA]

So as a furloughed United guy what are the predictions on what will happen to us? I am currently flying and making good money but it is as an expat, I would love to make it back home one day but I am hoping I have a home to come back to.

After the merger, the next 1000 guys will hit the street and you'll have nothing but photo's to show for your time at UAL. Not picking on you, the CAL furloughees will be in the same boat. Anyone on the street when this thing goes down should be shopping a new career.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

After the merger, the next 1000 guys will hit the street and you'll have nothing but photo's to show for your time at UAL. Not picking on you, the CAL furloughees will be in the same boat. Anyone on the street when this thing goes down should be shopping a new career.

Wrong again...no one knows. And by the way what happens when in 2012 there is a combined 500-600+ retirements/year starting?? Huh answer that "ATR Captain"....LMAO

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Lots of predictions here on this thread...


UAL is short of pilots, with have 1470 or so on furlough with a DOH around 8/99.

CAL is also running short with 140ish on furlough? I say before ALPA agrees to ANYTHING bring back ALL (UAL AND CAL) FURLOUGHEE's.

I dont think it will be as bad as many thing.....however I could be wrong. Delta is looking to hire soon......I never thought that would happen with the DAL/NWA merger.

 

[ATRCA]

Wrong again...no one knows. And by the way what happens when in 2012 there is a combined 500-600+ retirements/year starting?? Huh answer that "ATR Captain"....LMAO

Better fire up that resume JR, you aint coming back any time soon. There is no way those bean counters at CAL will want anything to do with a Jurassic fleet of 74's and 320's. Once the UAL scope clause becomes the law of the land, CAL will park all the 73's save the -8's and -9's. CAL's looking for widebody lift in this merger. They're not looking to maintain a domestic structure the size of the combined UAL/CAL. Smigel has been fairly open about his disdain for domestic flying. You honestly think this abortion will create growth? You can't, there's no way you could possibly think that unless you really, really wanted to.

You can kid yourself as much as you like about retirements et al, but CAL won't keep CLE and UAL will probably shrink in IAD. There will be no growth for some time while "synergies" are created. Good luck. If we're all lucky you'll be married to LCC and CAL can go it alone. LCC has far more retirements than CAL so your growth fantasy has a better chance of coming to fruition there.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

So CAL has 147 on the street. UAL has 1470. How do you blend that group, since #147 at CAL has the same career expectations, and maybe more since retirements and new aircraft are coming, but less seniority/longevity than #148 at UAL. If you did a 1 for 10 integration, that would put #147 at CAL from being recalled soon, to being recalled years from now????

Yogi

 

[Billsflyer]

So CAL has 147 on the street. UAL has 1470. How do you blend that group, since #147 at CAL has the same career expectations, and maybe more since retirements and new aircraft are coming, but less seniority/longevity than #148 at UAL. If you did a 1 for 10 integration, that would put #147 at CAL from being recalled soon, to being recalled years from now????

Yogi

Exactly, and what happens if Cal recalls us after the merger announcement, but before final approval, which really could happen. Furlough us again and bring 147 UAL guys to fill our spots, as we go from flying to being 1400 from recall just like that.

I just hope that UAL just stays with LCC, and we decide to grow from within. It worked for AMR in the past, it can work again. Then again having a former M & A lawyer as our CEO does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Back to my furlough.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

Exactly, and what happens if Cal recalls us after the merger announcement, but before final approval, which really could happen. Furlough us again and bring 147 UAL guys to fill our spots, as we go from flying to being 1400 from recall just like that.

I just hope that UAL just stays with LCC, and we decide to grow from within. It worked for AMR in the past, it can work again. Then again having a former M & A lawyer as our CEO does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Back to my furlough.

I believe there are protections in place for that. If you are on property, you cannot be furloughed and replaced by a furlough from the other carrier. I have been told that by many sources, and not on FI...LOL. I sure hope it's true. Can anyone chime in please...

Yogi

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The senior guys at UAL and CAL are going to look out for themselves... since the furloughed and MIL LOA guys are out of sight...... out of mind they are not going to be considered.....

Not true about MIL LOA. We keep seniority and longevity while on LOA, so we would be placed appropriately as an active pilot would. Nice try though...

No not really. While you may have your sen and long, the fact is while on LOA you have no vote. Not on LEC business and not on a TA. IOW, you will accept the terms, no questions asked, if/when you decide to come back. What might help is knowing that the invol. furloughed guys that are not gaining longevity will be worse off than you.....

 

[bluechunks]

They're not looking to maintain a domestic structure the size of the combined UAL/CAL.

What makes you think the "rationalization" has not already occurred with the grounding of the "classic" 737's on both sides of the fence?

 

[thruthemurk]

I believe there are protections in place for that. If you are on property, you cannot be furloughed and replaced by a furlough from the other carrier. I have been told that by many sources, and not on FI...LOL. I sure hope it's true. Can anyone chime in please...

Yogi

Ask the junior AWA pilots who had a job on the merger date with US Air. All of the US Air furloughees are back to work and those AWA pilots are now furloughed.

PS they were not even furloughed before the merge at any point.

 

[eaglesview]

The first carrier to go down the road of BK and A plan attack/loss? RUF kidding me? Did UA go bankrupt in 2002 or 1982? You are correct that the A fund wasn't really sold for anything, although I think the MEC/NC did go pretty soft in the end after all they gave up to protect the A fund, and the mounting evidence that it may not have been as underfunded as claimed. I see you didn't mention scope, presumably because you know Rez is correct on that. I'll add in the no-furlough off probation and min-pilot numbers. Dubo rolled on them first in Nov 2001, and Whiteford was all to eager to follow suit in ERP I and beyond to save the A fund that anyone with half a brain could see was part of the end game once he started down the concession road. The rest of the stuff that followed(EMB-170 sideletter, etc) was fruit of an apple that was rotten from the start because of the mentality from the top. You are right that UsAirways and United were the poster children for what not do in BK, but I can't really put the majority of the blame on national. Both carriers had history to look at with carriers like Braniff, EAL, PAA, and TWA. That said, while UsAirways has generally traveled the tougher road, United's MEC's have largely rolled over easier. Both gave up scope, but US ALPA struck a much better deal for their pilots than UA did, by an amazingly laughable margin. When it came to the A fund, the Airways guys did much more to fight the termination imo. Sorry for the small rehash of history, but to act like what happened to the airline (not the country) was unprecedented is silly to me.

What exactly does any of this has to do with a SLI for furloughed pilots? Probably little. This seems like something that will go to an arbitrator who quite frankly probably spend little time on that portion of the list compared to the attention it will get here. If we're talking about 'feeling good' about a particular sides argument, I suppose the CO furloughed guys will feel better about the fight their MEC puts up the UA ones will.

Unlike Rez your response is actually well thought out and makes sense. I was misunderstood. I meant UAL was the first post 9-11 carrier to go through the process. Hell maybe I am wrong on that to, I am sure if I am someone will correct me. We have had the honor/ misfortune of being the spear head the last couple of economic swings. We were heroes after contract 2000. (remember the "Delta dot?") We then were the zeros spearheading the downward spiral. "Heroes to zeros in no time flat." ( I think there is a Disney song with those lyrics)

Unlike you I do put more responsibility on ALPA national. We are self represented by pilot volunteers. We are not the professionals they are supposed to be. That is why we pay dues is it not. Did we roll over on scope??yup Did we get screwed by a side letter signed by ONE MEC officer? YUP Does that mean that the senior guys (of which I am not one) all secretly called him up and said sign that agreement to save us and screw the junior guys?? Kinda doubt that. The other carriers undoubtedly benefitted from us going through the process first just as we would have had someone else gone first.

Now back to the SLI. I do not think that just because the day an agreement may be announced that all of the years of service should mean nothing. I think that is a bunch of crap. A bunch of folks jump over them because the snap shot was taken on this date rather than that date. It is the same way I felt about the furloughed USAir pilots. In my opinion the argument, "you didn't bring a job to the merger" is weak. The furloughies nor the folks on the otherside have any control over that, but we will continue to feed on one another cause that is the culture. "I'm in , pull up the rope!!"

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

eaglesview,

I am sure that you have been around long enough to understand pattern bargaining. I remember Dal getting the rates on the 777 and maybe one other type (738?) that Ual used for contract 2000. And don't forget little ole nwa pilots for the lockout/strike of 98 to get the ball moving the correct direction again after the givebacks of the early 90s. Here is too pattern bargaining once again working in OUR favor after the last 10.

 

[eaglesview]

eaglesview,

I am sure that you have been around long enough to understand pattern bargaining. I remember Dal getting the rates on the 777 and maybe one other type (738?) that Ual used for contract 2000. And don't forget little ole nwa pilots for the lockout/strike of 98 to get the ball moving the correct direction again after the givebacks of the early 90s. Here is too pattern bargaining once again working in OUR favor after the last 10.

I agree with your assesmant of pattern bargaining. I can't comment on your last statement because I don't know who you are, therefore I don't know your meaning of "OUR."

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Better fire up that resume JR, you aint coming back any time soon. There is no way those bean counters at CAL will want anything to do with a Jurassic fleet of 74's and 320's. Once the UAL scope clause becomes the law of the land, CAL will park all the 73's save the -8's and -9's. CAL's looking for widebody lift in this merger. They're not looking to maintain a domestic structure the size of the combined UAL/CAL. Smigel has been fairly open about his disdain for domestic flying. You honestly think this abortion will create growth? You can't, there's no way you could possibly think that unless you really, really wanted to.

You can kid yourself as much as you like about retirements et al, but CAL won't keep CLE and UAL will probably shrink in IAD. There will be no growth for some time while "synergies" are created. Good luck. If we're all lucky you'll be married to LCC and CAL can go it alone. LCC has far more retirements than CAL so your growth fantasy has a better chance of coming to fruition there.

Considering you got hired at CAL in 2007-2008 I can see your fear. I hope it works out for all and there is growth domestically and internationally. As far as IAD shrinking...highly doubt it