United and CAL SLI for furloughed pilots

[mamba20]

Who is going to pay for it? I say the senior guys. They gave it away... they can get it back...

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I couldn't agree more.

The senior pilots can pay for it with a small % of their hourly rate and the rest with vacation, sick time, and other gravey.....

 

[eaglesview]

The senior pilots can pay for it with a small % of their hourly rate and the rest with vacation, sick time, and other gravey.....

Good idea, let's get rid of the gravy. there is no use for it anyway since the potatoes and meat are missing anyway.

Before you start your banter with me I am not one of these senior guys you have it in for but your idea is silly. You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back. So as a guy who hopes to become senior I am not in favor of this gimmick.

 

[justin15e]

My guess for a combined SLI is this:

- Relative seniority for active pilots on both lists.
- Active time on property for guys on furlough (1 yr active service at UA gets placed next to a 1 yr active at CAL) - This is unfortunate for CAL furloughs since it will most likely put the majority of furloughs at UA in front of CAL furloughs since all of CAL furloughs have less than 1 active year at CAL
- 5 year fence for both pilot groups

 

[BID]

147 on furlough at CAL. I have heard only half want to come back. What happens if they get recalled before the list is combined? Assuming of course there is a merger, and it is approved, etc, etc.

 

[WolfManPack]

My guess for a combined SLI is this:

- Relative seniority for active pilots on both lists.
- Active time on property for guys on furlough (1 yr active service at UA gets placed next to a 1 yr active at CAL) - This is unfortunate for CAL furloughs since it will most likely put the majority of furloughs at UA in front of CAL furloughs since all of CAL furloughs have less than 1 active year at CAL
- 5 year fence for both pilot groups

RE: 147 CAL at the bottom of a list using active time on property....Uh....NO! Keep your nearly bankrupt airline leveraged to the max and I'll keep my approximate 6 to 7 year upgrade at CAL.

 

[FDJ2]

My guess for a combined SLI is this:

- Relative seniority for active pilots on both lists.
- Active time on property for guys on furlough (1 yr active service at UA gets placed next to a 1 yr active at CAL) - This is unfortunate for CAL furloughs since it will most likely put the majority of furloughs at UA in front of CAL furloughs since all of CAL furloughs have less than 1 active year at CAL
- 5 year fence for both pilot groups

Good guess: Here's mine, somewhat similar.

Replace "relative seniority" with "status/category ratios".

Four categories:

* 747/777,
* "wide body" to include 757s,
* narrow body and
* furlough.

Furloughed pilots to be integrated via ratio that is modified by longevity and time on furlough. IOW, the longer you've been on furlough, the less your longevity counts.

Anyone brought back after the date of constructive notice will not be furloughed to make room for a pilots still on furlough from the other pre-merger list, but who hasn't been recalled yet.

5 year fence on the 747s.

 

[thor2j]

We definetly need a fence on the 787 as well.

 

[contrail67]

147 on furlough at CAL. I have heard only half want to come back. What happens if they get recalled before the list is combined? Assuming of course there is a merger, and it is approved, etc, etc.

The way the press is talking the merger will be announced and list made (probably already has) before any recalls happen....imagine that.

 

[justin15e]

RE: 147 CAL at the bottom of a list using active time on property....Uh....NO! Keep your nearly bankrupt airline leveraged to the max and I'll keep my approximate 6 to 7 year upgrade at CAL.

I agree 100%. Stay separate. This time looks like it might actually happen though. I'm not saying what I want or think is fair to either side, but my guess in my opinion is realistic.

If CAL wants to help out its furloughed guys, it needs to get them back before the summer flying. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that will happen.

 

[skywdriver]

I agree 100%. Stay separate. This time looks like it might actually happen though. I'm not saying what I want or think is fair to either side, but my guess in my opinion is realistic.

If CAL wants to help out its furloughed guys, it needs to get them back before the summer flying. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that will happen.

I think whether or not it happens all depends on the perception of our management team of whether United would actually try to do a deal with US Airways. I am almost certain that if they feel like we have to merge in order to prevent a United/ US Air merger, then at some point it will be a done deal. I think we furloughs will probably get totally hosed in the process unless the actives are willing to take a stance, use some power, and negotiate a contract that will get scope back. The management knows that will be an issue, so I am sure they will probably just try to buy the unions off, and the senior guys who are enjoying their 5 extra years of flying possibly at the expense of my whole career will cash in yet again. I hope it doesn't happen, but I don't think the idea is far fetched by any means.

 

[skywdriver]

I would love to see some unity in our pilot group, and see that some people are willing to fight for us. I would love to know that someone would start a movement similar to FUPM to say to management, we are not onboard with any merger until every last furloughed pilot is back. I think our pilots should send emails to Jay Pierce telling him that they will do everything they can to derail a merger unless we are back before it is announced. I wish someone would post a message on the CAL forums encouraging this. I wish that people would print out a generic message and give it to the crews they fly with encouraging them to email the message to Jay, and in the end I wish Jay would have 4,000 emails printed off to hand deliver to our management team. That would make a statement to our management team that says we mean business, and I honestly believe it would get us called back. Management knows that they will need our support in the event they decide to merge. This is something that could be done in 5 minutes of time by each pilot. But, ultimately, people are all talk and most don't care enough about the fact that 147 pilots are just waiting to see if their career's have been ruined to take any action. Long gone it seems are the days when pilots really cared enough about each other to stick together through action instead of talk.

 

[rudder]

It is interesting that every time the word 'merger' is mentioned, pilots act as though contracts - including those with third parties - are disposable. They are not. UA has contracts with numerous FFD carriers and those contracts must be honoured until expiry unless the plan is to put UA into CH11 once again.

 

[eaglesview]

Good guess: Here's mine, somewhat similar.

Replace "relative seniority" with "status/category ratios".

Four categories:

* 747/777,
* "wide body" to include 757s,
* narrow body and
* furlough.

Furloughed pilots to be integrated via ratio that is modified by longevity and time on furlough. IOW, the longer you've been on furlough, the less your longevity counts.

Anyone brought back after the date of constructive notice will not be furloughed to make room for a pilots still on furlough from the other pre-merger list, but who hasn't been recalled yet.

5 year fence on the 747s.

Why fence the 747? At UAL it is the same pay category as the 777. A wide body ratio type fence makes more sense in my opinion.

PS my opinion and just about everyone elses on here counts for about zero.

 

[mamba20]

I think whether or not it happens all depends on the perception of our management team of whether United would actually try to do a deal with US Airways. I am almost certain that if they feel like we have to merge in order to prevent a United/ US Air merger, then at some point it will be a done deal. I think we furloughs will probably get totally hosed in the process unless the actives are willing to take a stance, use some power, and negotiate a contract that will get scope back. The management knows that will be an issue, so I am sure they will probably just try to buy the unions off, and the senior guys who are enjoying their 5 extra years of flying possibly at the expense of my whole career will cash in yet again. I hope it doesn't happen, but I don't think the idea is far fetched by any means.

Well, from one guy who is very near the bottom of the list let me assure that I will not allow scope to be sold out. I'm all about selling out the senior guys for a change. Let them see what its like. You hear that senior guys? SCREW YOUR A FUND!!! ITS TIME FOR THE JUNIOR GUYS TO GET THEIRS!!!! I'll sell you out in a hearbeat just like you did to us. Just so you can see how it feels. Age 65 was a total fluke, retire now and take the lump sum before the next gen comes in a kicks your a$$

 

[Morgoth]

If CAL wants to help out its furloughed guys, it needs to get them back before the summer flying. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear that will happen.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

 

[skywdriver]

It is interesting that every time the word 'merger' is mentioned, pilots act as though contracts - including those with third parties - are disposable. They are not. UA has contracts with numerous FFD carriers and those contracts must be honoured until expiry unless the plan is to put UA into CH11 once again.

A joint contract that applies to both pilot groups must be voted on in the event of a merger. The old contracts that each pilot group operate under only apply to those two groups separately, which no longer applies once the pilots operate under a joint seniority list. All things I am sure you know, so would you not consider a joint contract a new contract?

Do contracts with the regionals require the joint pilot group to vote on a joint contract that allows that flying? Absolutely not. What happens when management says, "Hey, you guys better vote on this contract that allows us to continue operating 70 seats, because we have contracts with those carriers that would cost us a lot of money to break"? The pilots say, "Your problem not ours. Either you put a contract on the table that has what we want in it, or you can run this new airline with two separate pilot groups operating under two seperate contracts until you do."

The burden of a joint contract falls fully in the hands of the management team that runs the new airline. Without that, their deal doesn't work the way they want it to. Not the pilots' problems. There are two ways to get out of a contract, let it expire, or pay. Not my problem if they have to pay to get out of those contracts.

Everyone says the biggest controllable deterioting factor for this profession the past few years was giving up scope. Well, if UAL and CAL merge, and the pilots don't use the power they hold to get it back, then that will become the newest cause to the downfall of this profession. If a merged CAL/UAL pilot group could get "regional" flying back to mainline, then I guarantee that would be a fight that every other major airline pilot union would fight for in the next contract negotiation.

Don't miss the chance should it present itself by making management's merger complications your justification to give them what they need because it would otherwise be costly or complicated for them. That is their problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Good idea, let's get rid of the gravy. there is no use for it anyway since the potatoes and meat are missing anyway.

Before you start your banter with me I am not one of these senior guys you have it in for but your idea is silly. You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back. So as a guy who hopes to become senior I am not in favor of this gimmick.

It is not a gimmick... rather pragmatic... but then again.. when have the senior guys been pragmatic in the last 20 years?

Seniors guys gave scope away. Morally and ethically, shouldn't they get it back? If not them, then who? Surely not the junior guys?

Since the senior pilots gave it away, and they are the only ones with any chips on the table, who else has anything to bargain with? Surely not the junior guys? Should the junior guys be a furlough for another five years? Give up the Airbus?

Your statement: You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back.

While it might be true it is assuming that the economics across the seniority list are fair and reasonable. I can assure you they are not. Let's take first year pay. ALPA has traditionally forgone first year pay because pilots are only there for a year, then they move up like George and Weezy. Why waste negotiation capital on first year pay?

The real question is... how low is too low for first year pay? Are we saying that $19/hr at the regionals is the reference for a pathetic $30 at UAL/CAL?

The point is you can't keep selling out the junior guys all so you can make statements like "You should know be now if you give stuff up it is very difficult to get back."

At some point you are going to have to define the profession from the bottom up and not with a brass ring that many can't even reach.

The current contract set up is unsustainable. It must be reworked. Mindsets of "you'll be senior one day and you can get yours" are flawed. At the current pace guest workers with residence permits and thick accents will be your FOs and you'll (we all will) become a dying breed in a once proud yet now forgotten profession.

Note to senior guys: In BK you were willing to give up a lot just to keep your spot on the seniority list. That is what is most important: the steady paycheck twice a month so you can eat, pay your house note and send your kids to college. Not the A fund. (UAL). (funny, that is what we all want)

Therefore, keep you spot on the seniority list and get scope back. You drove us here.... now drive us out.....