Unfortunately CAL will lose it's 50 seat scope.

[doh]

That is why you have to be willing to go to the wall if you want to fix this mess.

 

[rtmcfi]

Obviously, you know nothing. Start looking for another career. Your RJ job is going to be gone over the next few years.

Looks like you fly big stuff. Enjoy your raise at your co-workers expense. The only way you all get back the rj is by burning the place down. Not gonna happen. You will be OK. Narrow body folks.......not so much. Save this post, and look at it again in 5 years. United already parked their 73s, Continentals smaller 73s are next.

 

[Jetjockey]

Looks like you fly big stuff. Enjoy your raise at your co-workers expense. The only way you all get back the rj is by burning the place down. Not gonna happen. You will be OK. Narrow body folks.......not so much. Save this post, and look at it again in 5 years. United already parked their 73s, Continentals smaller 73s are next.

They way mainline gets it back is holding the line on CAL's scope. As the economics become untenable for 50 seaters...they dwindle. Even if the new JCBA allows 70 seaters, I seriously doubt there will be any more ground given. Who says mainline has to "give up" anything?

This is not a concessionary environment. RJ operators have reached their high point. The decline has been in progress for over a year (consolidation is survival of the fittest). Mainline scope is the only thing preventing ALL domestic flying from being outsourced to regional airlines. You really think mainline pilots will allow more jobs to be outsourced? Guess again.

Whether you realized or not, the RJ is getting squeezed on one end by economics and the high CASM, and scope limiting seat increase on the other end.

 

[mamba20]

Whether you realized or not, the RJ is getting squeezed on one end by economics and the high CASM, and scope limiting seat increase on the other end.

I love a good 3 way.

 

[TheAlchemist]

They way mainline gets it back is holding the line on CAL's scope. As the economics become untenable for 50 seaters...they dwindle. Even if the new JCBA allows 70 seaters, I seriously doubt there will be any more ground given. Who says mainline has to "give up" anything?

This is not a concessionary environment. RJ operators have reached their high point. The decline has been in progress for over a year (consolidation is survival of the fittest). Mainline scope is the only thing preventing ALL domestic flying from being outsourced to regional airlines. You really think mainline pilots will allow more jobs to be outsourced? Guess again.

Whether you realized or not, the RJ is getting squeezed on one end by economics and the high CASM, and scope limiting seat increase on the other end.

We can all dream...but not likely to unfold like that.

 

[Flopgut]

Sorry to burst your bubble gramps, but it's not my wet dream, it's my nightmare. Yours too. I'm beting you are pretty junior. I'm gonna get stuck at a regional flying 100 seaters, and your gonna get furloughed. I hope and pray I am wrong, but nothing has de-railed the rjs "manifest destiny" yet. The same mentaility that allowed the RJs to be flown by outsourced pilots will liely prevail. The upper half of the seniority list will have their pay and work rules restored. The lower half of the seniority lists will get to throw gear for me (yet again), or leave the industry. Good luck to us all.

That's not the reality we have on this specific issue. It's a convenient way of rationalizing it's ok to campaign for someone else's job. The current, concessionary CAL contract protected as much for the top half as it did the bottom half. (froze the pension and protected 50 seat jet scope) That's not different from what the CAL and UAL groups are trying to do going forward. What IS different is that there are bunch of regional pilots who parade around with "guppy killer" stickers on their bags and fly 70 seat airplanes for the same rate as 50s. Not all of them, but too many of them. And as noble as you think [hope] your post might indicate you are on the issue, I really don't think any of us can trust you. We'll see what happens if we win.

 

[rtmcfi]

That's not the reality we have on this specific issue. It's a convenient way of rationalizing it's ok to campaign for someone else's job. The current, concessionary CAL contract protected as much for the top half as it did the bottom half. (froze the pension and protected 50 seat jet scope) That's not different from what the CAL and UAL groups are trying to do going forward. What IS different is that there are bunch of regional pilots who parade around with "guppy killer" stickers on their bags and fly 70 seat airplanes for the same rate as 50s. Not all of them, but too many of them. And as noble as you think [hope] your post might indicate you are on the issue, I really don't think any of us can trust you. We'll see what happens if we win.

I am not asking you to trust me, as I certainly don't trust the Sr mainline folks to clean up the mess they, and their predecesors made. Continental Pilots were smart to keep the 50 seat scope. United........well, we all know how that worked out. There are roughly 4700 continental pilots. United has about 7700. United has shown a propensity to eat their young. Check out the narrow body work rules vs. those of the wide bodies. The UAL pilots will control this thing, and I am afraid the continental folks, along with their good scope are along for the ride. Good luck with the 70 seat arbitration. I sincerely mean that.

 

[clr4theapch]

Moderator note: Some members have a short memory, or just refuse to follow the very simple and basic rules we enforce here on Flight Info..

Stop the personal attacks, stop the creative swearing, including the use of Initials to spell out swearing sentences.. Suspensions are out.. repeat offenders are leaving us for good.. Please keep it civil, I don't care what point of view you have or what you say.. "as long as you say it nicely"

Thank you .. Clr4 ....mod

 

[chppr5]

I am not asking you to trust me, as I certainly don't trust the Sr mainline folks to clean up the mess they, and their predecesors made. Continental Pilots were smart to keep the 50 seat scope. United........well, we all know how that worked out. There are roughly 4700 continental pilots. United has about 7700. United has shown a propensity to eat their young. Check out the narrow body work rules vs. those of the wide bodies. The UAL pilots will control this thing, and I am afraid the continental folks, along with their good scope are along for the ride. Good luck with the 70 seat arbitration. I sincerely mean that.

Tell us "All knowing one"...what are the work rules for the NB vs WB at UAL? CAL didn't have to face a BK judge this decade so it was a bit easier to hold on to scope.

 

[Jetjockey]

No rmtcfi..... you've got it backwards. The regionals are along for the ride. You and anyone else who flies for a regional airline will fly what mainline scope allows. You seem to know how the combined pilots group will vote. So the regionals have long terms deals. I don't think it's a drop in the bucket compared to multiple billion dollar revenues, and the prospect of disrupting via mainline self- help.

You are assuming what happened in the past will be exactly how it plays out in the future. The concession stand is closed, and so goes your hope of flying a bigger "rj".

 

[Hvy]

Looks like you fly big stuff. Enjoy your raise at your co-workers expense. The only way you all get back the rj is by burning the place down. Not gonna happen. You will be OK. Narrow body folks.......not so much. Save this post, and look at it again in 5 years. United already parked their 73s, Continentals smaller 73s are next.

Opinions without knowledge are just .....opinions. But the truth of the matter is, this contract is a "narrow body" contract. They will benefit the most (as it should be after the last 8 years).

 

[spacecadet1]

If I were an RJ driver with a UAL/CAL codeshare, I would be looking at the Home Depot help wanted ads.

 

[rtmcfi]

I hope you all are correct, as I would really like to move on to bigger and better. If my predictions come true, just remember where to direct your anger. Sadly, history is on my side. Your best hope is that Tilton capitulates to your demands in an effort to close the deal, thereby securing his payout. No forward thinking management would ever allow the rjs back in house. That barn door was left open long ago, and the horse is gone, likely never to return.

The problem with bringing the rjs back in house is that the company loses the ability to decimate longetivity. With the outsourced feed, you never have to pay 25 year captains or 15 year fo's. As soon as one contract gets old, you put it back out to bid, and a fresh batch of teenagers moves in. Even if you undercut the current RJ rates substantially, management knows they will lose the ability to reset those longetivity rates down the road. Do you really think UAL will allow that to happen when AMR, USAIR and DAL all enjoy the ability to do this? The only way you get this fixed is if you take it all the way to a strike, threatening the merger. I don't believe that the senior folks will do it. The Jr folks might. I don't think there will be enough Jr folks to carry the day. The Sr folks will sell you, and I down the river for a couple sheckels.

 

[Flopgut]

If my predictions come true, just remember where to direct your anger.

And if you are wrong and we win, you remember not to fly disputed work. Jeff Lorenzo is probably going to ignore a negative ruling.

 

[rtmcfi]

Damn right I wont! What happens if the pilots win? Can management still give you the finger? Or is the arbitration somehow binding on them? If the pilots lose, are you dead in the water, or is there an avenue for appeal?

 

[Flopgut]

I think Jeff has a variety of throw down plans for whatever outcome. I don't think it's a coincidence that the non-union carrier was matched with the hub city in a right to work state. Make no mistake, mgts goal is to destroy the profession completely. First use the regionals against the mainline and then regionals against regionals.

There is no reason labor should not prevail. Other than we as labor rarely gets the proper outcome we should. Wrecking CAL's scope is a major reason UAL and CAL came together. There was no other way Jeff was going to get around it.

It doesn't help either that more than half the non CAL/UAL pilots want us to lose as well.

 

[BeCareful!]

I think Jeff has a variety of throw down plans for whatever outcome. I don't think it's a coincidence that the non-union carrier was matched with the hub city in a right to work state. Make no mistake, mgts goal is to destroy the profession completely. First use the regionals against the mainline and then regionals against regionals.

There is no reason labor should not prevail.................

Oh yes there is, Flopgut, and here it is: The almighty union in this "fight" is ALPA, an entity in the business, primarily, of representing regional airline pilots. Behind the scenes at Papa ALPA there is no fight, and there won't be. Just like they want to allow an increase of flight time limits in their "fight" to cure fatigue. That's just stupid pandering to the ATA and their next acquisition, the JB pilots.

There is no fight left in ALPA, because they serve too many masters. Sad to see this fail, because it might be the keystone to restoring the profession.