Unfortunately CAL will lose it's 50 seat scope.

[luckytohaveajob]

SCOPE is a tough fight.

And an even tougher fight for a SCAB union. CAL ALPA cannot even get a pay raise after a concessionary contract has expired for two years. How is it ever going to lead the industry in something so important?

 

[Skyflyin]

What leverage will all the Major Pilot groups have over Scope, really?

The only legal leverage is a Strike, and I just don't think any Pilot group out there is going to Strike over Scope. Personally, I don't think Major Pilots will put it all on the line over Scope.

A full blown strike is not the only leverage. In fact, I believe many are correct that the President would not allow an airline the size of the combined United to fully strike. Instead, I see us doing something similar to the CHAOS campaign of the flight attendants. Strike only certain portions of the airline say, all Europe flights one week, then all Pacific flights the next, then Latin and South America flights next. That would not be a total shut down of the airline and still be legal after we have been released by the NMB.

As far as Scope, every pilot should be concerned about it. If much of our 737 flying is shifted to the regionals, as United's was, and we lose the bottom third of the seniority list, then everyone moves down. If your not fighting for Scope, you would end up losing money even if the contract included raises since you would be downgraded to the right seat or to a lesser airplane more than likely.

If a major airline pilot is not willing to put it all on the line for Scope then they need to get their head out of sand and look around.

 

[jetflier]

Strikes work.
As a NWA guy in 1998, our strike worked in our favor.

BUT, it takes balls. Period

 

[bigshooter107]

The new asa contract with Ua/Co for exspress jet flying is locked in for ten years with each airframe. When the 50 seat leases expire they are slated to be replaced with 70 seat aircraft. Those airframes and jobs have already been lost, does it not make sense to allow the company to have a first class product and make more money on the small lift feed?

 

[sleeves]

The new asa contract with Ua/Co for exspress jet flying is locked in for ten years with each airframe. When the 50 seat leases expire they are slated to be replaced with 70 seat aircraft. Those airframes and jobs have already been lost, does it not make sense to allow the company to have a first class product and make more money on the small lift feed?

Not arguing the merits of the equipment. The company can fly them as long as pilots on our seniority list fly them. They want to replace the 50's with 70's, what is next 70's for 100's. Bring them on property at rates they are being flown at now.

 

[doh]

It is not a joke. I am tired of bad pilots. Stupid accidents happened like this one because those people should have chosen another career path.

I saw it all the time at the regionals, I would say 50% of the pilot staff could not deal with a real emergency, 50% of them would make stupid mistakes on a daily basis. When they are paired together the odds of dumb mistakes doubles.

I am not saying I am perfect, I make mistakes too. But my daily mistakes would be things like breaking sterile cockpit, not doing all of the waypoint accuracy checks accross the Atlantic (who cares btw if you do them, just look at the GPS if it is working), forgetting to switch to tower at the sign in "LAX" (I may remember 100' past or so).... stuff that is not that big of a deal..
When if comes to situational awareness and actually doing what is important, flying the plane, I am at about a 99%. Oh and BTW, you can read the newspaper and know what is going on, unless you don't have any skill. I know there are some geeks that can't do that because they have to pay attention all the time...they are nervous every flight... My advice to them is change career, they were not meant to be a pilot.

I really get tired of the union protecting these pilots. I think they should be fired. I had a sim partner once at a regional that got 5 extra sim lessons, ridiculous!! I was finishing up sim #3 and he was still on sim #1, couldn't do a raw data takeoff, kept crashing.

Do you want your family or yourself on his plane, with 2 pilots like that?


Look at the Comair crash in Lexington....more bad pilots. You may say "that could happen to any of us"... I hate to tell you, NOT REALLY... good pilots would figure it out anything short of a unrecoverable mechanical issue.

Bad pilot crashes:

1) Air Florida
2) American in Cali
3) Air France in 2009
4) Most regional accidents.... AE in Indiana & RDU, Comair in DTW, Jetstream that crashed in Hibing & the other one up north in 2004. ACA in CMH (1995 I think), Clownair in LEX

5) and many more..


We need to demand good pilot hiring practices in order to demand higher wages!!! As long as we have goofy characters amongst us we will always get treated goofy by management.

I'm so glad you are able to stand in such absolute judgement of your fellows! All from the comfort of your computer screen! And you are 99% solid! I know this because you are telling me! What other proof could I possibly need!?! Someplace in this thread there is a reference to karma.

 

[bigshooter107]

Not arguing the merits of the equipment. The company can fly them as long as pilots on our seniority list fly them. They want to replace the 50's with 70's, what is next 70's for 100's. Bring them on property at rates they are being flown at now.

The company is not going to break a long term contract to make pilots happy. Lock the scope in for the duration of these contracts and bring them under mainline senority later. Just seems like this is a distraction from getting the best possible pat and work rules at mainline.

 

[bigshooter107]

Pay I mean

 

[Hvy]

What do you want to wager on that Gramps? You are being sold a bill of goods by your mec. They don't care much about the scope, only what that scope is good to trade for. Kiss it goodbye. Widebody folks can count on a raise. Narrow body pukes can count on getting the shaft. Hopefully you dont get furloughed.

Obviously, you know nothing. Start looking for another career. Your RJ job is going to be gone over the next few years.

 

[jonjuan]

Not arguing the merits of the equipment. The company can fly them as long as pilots on our seniority list fly them. They want to replace the 50's with 70's, what is next 70's for 100's. Bring them on property at rates they are being flown at now.

There was a good article posted some time back about this maneuver. It said that there's no way management will fall for this as they know they'll have to pay for it in the future when rates are brought up. They really are smarter than most people believe or want to give them credit for as they have the $$ and resources to protect their ATM, unfortunately. The battle cry always seems to be "management is a bunch of idiots." They seem to know what they are doing, however. Simple reality.

 

[doh]

That is why you have to be willing to go to the wall if you want to fix this mess.

 

[rtmcfi]

Obviously, you know nothing. Start looking for another career. Your RJ job is going to be gone over the next few years.

Looks like you fly big stuff. Enjoy your raise at your co-workers expense. The only way you all get back the rj is by burning the place down. Not gonna happen. You will be OK. Narrow body folks.......not so much. Save this post, and look at it again in 5 years. United already parked their 73s, Continentals smaller 73s are next.

 

[Jetjockey]

Looks like you fly big stuff. Enjoy your raise at your co-workers expense. The only way you all get back the rj is by burning the place down. Not gonna happen. You will be OK. Narrow body folks.......not so much. Save this post, and look at it again in 5 years. United already parked their 73s, Continentals smaller 73s are next.

They way mainline gets it back is holding the line on CAL's scope. As the economics become untenable for 50 seaters...they dwindle. Even if the new JCBA allows 70 seaters, I seriously doubt there will be any more ground given. Who says mainline has to "give up" anything?

This is not a concessionary environment. RJ operators have reached their high point. The decline has been in progress for over a year (consolidation is survival of the fittest). Mainline scope is the only thing preventing ALL domestic flying from being outsourced to regional airlines. You really think mainline pilots will allow more jobs to be outsourced? Guess again.

Whether you realized or not, the RJ is getting squeezed on one end by economics and the high CASM, and scope limiting seat increase on the other end.

 

[mamba20]

Whether you realized or not, the RJ is getting squeezed on one end by economics and the high CASM, and scope limiting seat increase on the other end.

I love a good 3 way.

 

[TheAlchemist]

They way mainline gets it back is holding the line on CAL's scope. As the economics become untenable for 50 seaters...they dwindle. Even if the new JCBA allows 70 seaters, I seriously doubt there will be any more ground given. Who says mainline has to "give up" anything?

This is not a concessionary environment. RJ operators have reached their high point. The decline has been in progress for over a year (consolidation is survival of the fittest). Mainline scope is the only thing preventing ALL domestic flying from being outsourced to regional airlines. You really think mainline pilots will allow more jobs to be outsourced? Guess again.

Whether you realized or not, the RJ is getting squeezed on one end by economics and the high CASM, and scope limiting seat increase on the other end.

We can all dream...but not likely to unfold like that.

 

[Flopgut]

Sorry to burst your bubble gramps, but it's not my wet dream, it's my nightmare. Yours too. I'm beting you are pretty junior. I'm gonna get stuck at a regional flying 100 seaters, and your gonna get furloughed. I hope and pray I am wrong, but nothing has de-railed the rjs "manifest destiny" yet. The same mentaility that allowed the RJs to be flown by outsourced pilots will liely prevail. The upper half of the seniority list will have their pay and work rules restored. The lower half of the seniority lists will get to throw gear for me (yet again), or leave the industry. Good luck to us all.

That's not the reality we have on this specific issue. It's a convenient way of rationalizing it's ok to campaign for someone else's job. The current, concessionary CAL contract protected as much for the top half as it did the bottom half. (froze the pension and protected 50 seat jet scope) That's not different from what the CAL and UAL groups are trying to do going forward. What IS different is that there are bunch of regional pilots who parade around with "guppy killer" stickers on their bags and fly 70 seat airplanes for the same rate as 50s. Not all of them, but too many of them. And as noble as you think [hope] your post might indicate you are on the issue, I really don't think any of us can trust you. We'll see what happens if we win.

 

[rtmcfi]

That's not the reality we have on this specific issue. It's a convenient way of rationalizing it's ok to campaign for someone else's job. The current, concessionary CAL contract protected as much for the top half as it did the bottom half. (froze the pension and protected 50 seat jet scope) That's not different from what the CAL and UAL groups are trying to do going forward. What IS different is that there are bunch of regional pilots who parade around with "guppy killer" stickers on their bags and fly 70 seat airplanes for the same rate as 50s. Not all of them, but too many of them. And as noble as you think [hope] your post might indicate you are on the issue, I really don't think any of us can trust you. We'll see what happens if we win.

I am not asking you to trust me, as I certainly don't trust the Sr mainline folks to clean up the mess they, and their predecesors made. Continental Pilots were smart to keep the 50 seat scope. United........well, we all know how that worked out. There are roughly 4700 continental pilots. United has about 7700. United has shown a propensity to eat their young. Check out the narrow body work rules vs. those of the wide bodies. The UAL pilots will control this thing, and I am afraid the continental folks, along with their good scope are along for the ride. Good luck with the 70 seat arbitration. I sincerely mean that.

 

[clr4theapch]

Moderator note: Some members have a short memory, or just refuse to follow the very simple and basic rules we enforce here on Flight Info..

Stop the personal attacks, stop the creative swearing, including the use of Initials to spell out swearing sentences.. Suspensions are out.. repeat offenders are leaving us for good.. Please keep it civil, I don't care what point of view you have or what you say.. "as long as you say it nicely"

Thank you .. Clr4 ....mod

 

[chppr5]

I am not asking you to trust me, as I certainly don't trust the Sr mainline folks to clean up the mess they, and their predecesors made. Continental Pilots were smart to keep the 50 seat scope. United........well, we all know how that worked out. There are roughly 4700 continental pilots. United has about 7700. United has shown a propensity to eat their young. Check out the narrow body work rules vs. those of the wide bodies. The UAL pilots will control this thing, and I am afraid the continental folks, along with their good scope are along for the ride. Good luck with the 70 seat arbitration. I sincerely mean that.

Tell us "All knowing one"...what are the work rules for the NB vs WB at UAL? CAL didn't have to face a BK judge this decade so it was a bit easier to hold on to scope.

 

[Jetjockey]

No rmtcfi..... you've got it backwards. The regionals are along for the ride. You and anyone else who flies for a regional airline will fly what mainline scope allows. You seem to know how the combined pilots group will vote. So the regionals have long terms deals. I don't think it's a drop in the bucket compared to multiple billion dollar revenues, and the prospect of disrupting via mainline self- help.

You are assuming what happened in the past will be exactly how it plays out in the future. The concession stand is closed, and so goes your hope of flying a bigger "rj".

 

[Hvy]

Looks like you fly big stuff. Enjoy your raise at your co-workers expense. The only way you all get back the rj is by burning the place down. Not gonna happen. You will be OK. Narrow body folks.......not so much. Save this post, and look at it again in 5 years. United already parked their 73s, Continentals smaller 73s are next.

Opinions without knowledge are just .....opinions. But the truth of the matter is, this contract is a "narrow body" contract. They will benefit the most (as it should be after the last 8 years).

 

[spacecadet1]

If I were an RJ driver with a UAL/CAL codeshare, I would be looking at the Home Depot help wanted ads.

 

[rtmcfi]

I hope you all are correct, as I would really like to move on to bigger and better. If my predictions come true, just remember where to direct your anger. Sadly, history is on my side. Your best hope is that Tilton capitulates to your demands in an effort to close the deal, thereby securing his payout. No forward thinking management would ever allow the rjs back in house. That barn door was left open long ago, and the horse is gone, likely never to return.

The problem with bringing the rjs back in house is that the company loses the ability to decimate longetivity. With the outsourced feed, you never have to pay 25 year captains or 15 year fo's. As soon as one contract gets old, you put it back out to bid, and a fresh batch of teenagers moves in. Even if you undercut the current RJ rates substantially, management knows they will lose the ability to reset those longetivity rates down the road. Do you really think UAL will allow that to happen when AMR, USAIR and DAL all enjoy the ability to do this? The only way you get this fixed is if you take it all the way to a strike, threatening the merger. I don't believe that the senior folks will do it. The Jr folks might. I don't think there will be enough Jr folks to carry the day. The Sr folks will sell you, and I down the river for a couple sheckels.

 

[Flopgut]

If my predictions come true, just remember where to direct your anger.

And if you are wrong and we win, you remember not to fly disputed work. Jeff Lorenzo is probably going to ignore a negative ruling.

 

[rtmcfi]

Damn right I wont! What happens if the pilots win? Can management still give you the finger? Or is the arbitration somehow binding on them? If the pilots lose, are you dead in the water, or is there an avenue for appeal?

 

[Flopgut]

I think Jeff has a variety of throw down plans for whatever outcome. I don't think it's a coincidence that the non-union carrier was matched with the hub city in a right to work state. Make no mistake, mgts goal is to destroy the profession completely. First use the regionals against the mainline and then regionals against regionals.

There is no reason labor should not prevail. Other than we as labor rarely gets the proper outcome we should. Wrecking CAL's scope is a major reason UAL and CAL came together. There was no other way Jeff was going to get around it.

It doesn't help either that more than half the non CAL/UAL pilots want us to lose as well.

 

[BeCareful!]

I think Jeff has a variety of throw down plans for whatever outcome. I don't think it's a coincidence that the non-union carrier was matched with the hub city in a right to work state. Make no mistake, mgts goal is to destroy the profession completely. First use the regionals against the mainline and then regionals against regionals.

There is no reason labor should not prevail.................

Oh yes there is, Flopgut, and here it is: The almighty union in this "fight" is ALPA, an entity in the business, primarily, of representing regional airline pilots. Behind the scenes at Papa ALPA there is no fight, and there won't be. Just like they want to allow an increase of flight time limits in their "fight" to cure fatigue. That's just stupid pandering to the ATA and their next acquisition, the JB pilots.

There is no fight left in ALPA, because they serve too many masters. Sad to see this fail, because it might be the keystone to restoring the profession.