Undercutting the undercutters...lovely career

[Flybywire44]

So if MESA is losing the 7 900s they have now, what is happening to the other 7 900's that MESA was supposed to receive in the future? It does not sound like DAL has announced where they are going.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In a nutshell, yes that would be OK as long as ALPA established a "professional rate" that was indexed to inflation as the minimum. Certain benefits included as well. I think employers would entertain the notion because they would have a handle on what the costs would be if they wanted to employ a "professional" pilot corps.
Now to enforce the professional concept, you have to treat non-professionals as what they are. You have to be willing to only extend the benefits of "professional" society to those who work for companies that employ professionals.
If VA wants to hire A320 pilots at substandard wages (don't know if they do), then other "professional" pilots have to ensure that their behavior working for a nonprofessional company is unacceptable, and benefits reserved for professionals will not be extended, ie jumpseats, alpa services, etc.
Make the benefits such that everyone only wants to work for a professional company and VA will have no choice but to hire professionals, right now, they can hire anyone, and they are welcomed into the pilot profession with open arms, even if they have to commute across country to work a job for 1/4 less pay in the highest cost area of the country.

One big problem.

RLA.

Don't blame ALPA or unions for that. the RLA is fed law.

This is america. You can't force a company like VA and upstart to pay top end wages of a different business model.

We have all lived in American Culture with its economy and gov't. Why do we expect ALPA or for any reason that we as Pilots should have special economic barriers.... or protections...

 

[Wasted]

One big problem.

RLA.

Don't blame ALPA or unions for that. the RLA is fed law.

This is america. You can't force a company like VA and upstart to pay top end wages of a different business model.

We have all lived in American Culture with its economy and gov't. Why do we expect ALPA or for any reason that we as Pilots should have special economic barriers.... or protections...

Doesn't ALPA employ a lobbyist or two in Washington? What do they do all day? Isn't it their job to affect changes in law? Isn't that what a political action committee is supposed to do? What did those "I backed the pac" stickers get us? Age 65 rule change?

Why should longshoremen or construction workers get any special economic barriers/protections either? Because they fought for them. They negotiated for them. They played hardball, they played smart, they supported each other, and they won. That's business, that's America. Pilots and ALPA don't even rate anything close to those people, in fact, they're the opposite of all those virtues. Just lame, stupid, backstabbing, losers.

 

[cunchos]

The reality is that a union that doesn’t have the power to strike is meaningless. Until the pilots realize that the government isn’t going to arrest hole pilot group. Especially if the strike makes the media shines the light on all the down coming in government, management, and RLA. However I am a realist and we as pilots don’t have the @#@#@ to do this. So till we grow a pair or change career we should just vent our frustrations in a blog and see our futures dwindle away.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

cunchos-

valid point.... a couple of lobbyist is DC aren't going to change the RLA in favor of pilots...

Especially when there are many times more lobbyist in DC trying to change it the other way.. they've got the money.....

An FI post condeming labor is easy! (#24)

 

[Turtlesfly]

Rez,

so what you're saying is that you don't have any actual ideas that would fix anything.

 

[XPOO]

Never ask Rez a question, all he will do is answer your question with another question. He makes no attempt to solve anything but throws a myriad of ideas at you, but doesn't commit to any of them.

Wait, I think that's the Webster's definition of ALPA. Go figure.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

so what you're saying is that you don't have any actual ideas that would fix anything.

actually I do, but no one wants to hear it....

Most want their problems solved by others....

Many expect unions and to do and be something they are not. They don't have justification for this thinking, but yet they still believe it...

effectiveness is achieved my the unification of the members..

Individual commitment to a group effort - that is what makes a team work, a company work, a society work, a civilization work -Lombardi​

Rosa Parks didn't change the racist laws in AL. She only brought awareness. What changed the laws was over a year of blacks not riding the city buses.

The quick argument is the leadership stinks. Ok, fine, find good leaders and place them in position. As pilots are are all leaders flying the line, but when it comes to our careers we act like welfare recipients...

Why?

 

[JumpersAway]

Rez: Kudos for doing something that not a single one of your critics is doing- contributing to the profession via a unified, established voice. Alpa is as strong as it's membership, not some miracle plan that runs on magic. Perhaps more people should quit bitching, and start participating to guide, and envoke change......

 

[Options_SLAVE]

The reality is that a union that doesn’t have the power to strike is meaningless. Until the pilots realize that the government isn’t going to arrest hole pilot group. Especially if the strike makes the media shines the light on all the down coming in government, management, and RLA. However I am a realist and we as pilots don’t have the @#@#@ to do this. So till we grow a pair or change career we should just vent our frustrations in a blog and see our futures dwindle away.

You might ask APA what happens when "the entire pilot group" violates the RLA. They did a sick-out and it cost them $10 million in fines and almost bankrupted their union. The fact that you can get them to do it is moot. It's against the law and if you do it your union will pay, and your union's officers can go to jail if the feds can pin it on them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You might ask APA what happens when "the entire pilot group" violates the RLA. They did a sick-out and it cost them $10 million in fines and almost bankrupted their union. The fact that you can get them to do it is moot. It's against the law and if you do it your union will pay, and your union's officers can go to jail if the feds can pin it on them.

Options...

Many a union members are ready to send their officers to jail.... However, I don't think the public is ready for criminal pilots. If union officers who break the law are willing to do so.. then are their members also willing to do so on the flightdeck? Its not what we think but what the public believes....

In addition, though, I don't think union members are willing to BK their organization.... are they?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Options...

Many a union members are ready to send their officers to jail.... However, I don't think the public is ready for criminal pilots. If union officers who break the law are willing to do so.. then are their members also willing to do so on the flightdeck? Its not what we think but what the public believes....

In addition, though, I don't think union members are willing to BK their organization.... are they?

I agree completely. I was very involved in our Union at Options. Our primary concern was from day 1 during the campaign to vote in the Union on the property and still is today, making sure we do everything legal and NOTHING illegal. In fact, our motto pretty much, which we have said a million times, is "Do nothing illegal, for or against the company".

The company on the other hand, has constantly done "little things" that "bent" or even blatantly violated the RLA, such as during our campaign changing our domiciles, crew meal policies, crew rest policies, circadium rythm cycles, crew rot (sitting 14 hrs at the FBO), predatory and flat out illegal pilot pushing and threatening, and cummulatively I think we can finally take them to court and beat them over the head with it, including their last boner move, firing 70 of the most supportive union members (including myself).

The RLA is weak for pilots, even though its initial inception was for the workers - lobbyists have since gutted the power of the RLA and it is very pro-company, and a strict set of rules MUST be followed, or you can be fined heavily as a union, be forced to decertify, or individually go to jail. The RLA SUCKS.

This is why it's imperative we don't vote the most anti-pilot and anti-union president we'd have since Reagan and would be equally as dangerous to our industry, John McCain. If he is president, you can pretty much forget any airline Union having any power to strike (legally). And I usually vote republican. NOT McCain.

As a union leader, I may love my pilot group, but I wouldn't be willing to go to jail for them by condoning, endorsing, or participating in any illegal actions, and I certainly would not suggest ANY pilot take matters to that level, you will just lose and in the end won't do anything for the cause.

My advise is to stay legal, ALWAYS, and kill the company with following the LAW and the CONTRACT - to the letter. If an entire pilot group does that, they will win every time, which means the company will have no choice but to bend to the pilots' will, or close the doors, which is not what anyone wants, including management (their bonuses stop).

 

[cmrflyer]

We don't have to worry about the RLA or unions getting sued or an other legal ramifications, if we all give in our two weeks notice at the same time, every airline would sh1t their pants.
Its legal, there is nothing to stop any of us quiting.
Then when the airline realizes what's happening the union can negotiate our return to work.
Management only understand two things, money and threats. We should play their game for once.

 

[BoilerUP]

We don't have to worry about the RLA or unions getting sued or an other legal ramifications, if we all give in our two weeks notice at the same time, every airline would sh1t their pants.
Its legal, there is nothing to stop any of us quiting.
Then when the airline realizes what's happening the union can negotiate our return to work.
Management only understand two things, money and threats. We should play their game for once.

That would be particularly useful if your airline has a contractual right for pilots to withdraw their resignation right up until the effective date...

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I'd love to see that work. Unfortunately, you can't trust everyone. And with no official work action, any pilot who did not quit could not be officially called a Scab. A strong pilot group could make that work, although I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure they would have a problem with this idea, although on the surface, I agree, I don't think there should be any reason why you should not have the right to quit.

However, even if only 40 to 50% of the pilot work force quit it would put such a financial impact on any airline it would be cost-prohibitive to allow it.

Then again, we saw what happened at Eastern. Plenty of Eastern scabs everywhere, and they are senior, now.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Undercutting the undercutters...

The reason I ask the question is because you are expecting ALPA to be or do something it isn't or cannot do...

effectiveness is achieved my the unification of the members..

This is what we were trying to achieve in 2000 with the PID. Delta and Comair were both in Section 6 at the time and the DMEC, doing business as ALPA, could have made it happen but they wanted to spend their negotiating capital on "United plus 1%" which as ~~~^~~~ used to say, assured Delta a seat in bankruptcy court.

It would have been a huge step toward real, meaningful scope and all we ever hear about it now is: "...the nerve of that seniority grab."

The mainliners are about to do it again by leaving Comair, Compass and Mesaba in alter-ego pergatory. If unity isn't the overriding issue, then the union is doomed to fail.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

The mainliners are about to do it again by leaving Comair, Compass and Mesaba in alter-ego pergatory. If unity isn't the overriding issue, then the union is doomed to fail.

Very profound statement. I think you hit the nail on the head. The majors (management) sees the INCREDIBLE value and savings they get by whipsawing the regionals against each other.

Personally, I think the regional market is saturated - even super-saturated. ALL the regional flying is just outsourced mainline flying, and mainlines are shrinking, which means inevitably the regionals will also shrink, meaning that there is more pilots and airplanes than there is flying available for the existing market.

This means furloughs. The majors are going to down-size to the appropriate levels, and force those mainline pilots to fly at their alter-ego B or C scale carriers, or even slum themselves down into the non-Major owned regionals, and ALL the regionals, including American Eagle very shortly, will all be fighting for scraps given to them by the majors and all the regionals get to fight over those scraps. The win-win for management is that those major airline pilots are now doing the same flying for half the cost or less as a regional pilot, and mainline's customer still gets from point A to point B, and they paid the same price they paid for a major airline ticket to fly around in a Barbie Jet.

At the regionals, meanwhile, lowest bidder gets the flying. Losers all get to furlough.

It's a race to the bottom and we all can't get there fast enough.


sh!ty industry to be in. Any person thinking of going to college and learning to fly to be an airline pilot now is crazy and in for a disappointing career.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd love to see that work. Unfortunately, you can't trust everyone. And with no official work action, any pilot who did not quit could not be officially called a Scab. A strong pilot group could make that work, although I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure they would have a problem with this idea, although on the surface, I agree, I don't think there should be any reason why you should not have the right to quit.

However, even if only 40 to 50% of the pilot work force quit it would put such a financial impact on any airline it would be cost-prohibitive to allow it.

Then again, we saw what happened at Eastern. Plenty of Eastern scabs everywhere, and they are senior, now.

As you know.... from Flying the Line Vol 1, Dave Behnke sat down with a stack of pilot resignation letters...

He could submit them on his accord.... and he used these letters to negotiate with management...


Also, the Air Mail pilots decided that the next time one pilot refused to fly for bad wx, they all would.... the first strike.... it worked...


Problem is... I don't see too many pilots with this kind of courage.. oh they talk about the golden age and the good ol days and fret that these days aren[t around from them, but they expect someone else to provide those glorly days....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is what we were trying to achieve in 2000 with the PID. Delta and Comair were both in Section 6 at the time and the DMEC, doing business as ALPA, could have made it happen but they wanted to spend their negotiating capital on "United plus 1%" which as ~~~^~~~ used to say, assured Delta a seat in bankruptcy court.

It would have been a huge step toward real, meaningful scope and all we ever hear about it now is: "...the nerve of that seniority grab."

The mainliners are about to do it again by leaving Comair, Compass and Mesaba in alter-ego pergatory. If unity isn't the overriding issue, then the union is doomed to fail.

We've talked about this.... the CMR/ASA guys couldn't form relationships with DALPA... thus DALPA didn't care to go further.... simplified yes...

 

[N2264J]

Re: Undercutting the undercutters...

We've talked about this.... the CMR/ASA guys couldn't form relationships with DALPA... thus DALPA didn't care to go further.... simplified yes...

You ask hundreds of questions and apparently they're all rhetorical because, in your mind, ALPA isn't doing anything wrong. Isn't that true?

...you are expecting ALPA to be or do something it isn't or cannot do...

ALPA could have fixed the scope problem in 2000 but the Delta pilots were more interested in a "United plus 1%" contract so that's where the bargaining capital went. Unity was traded for dollars by our "union." So now, you're reduced to endorsing the Delta pilots decision in 2000 while crying crocodile tears over scope.

You ask a question then dismiss the answer if it doesn't fit your narrow view of the neoALPA dogma. You're disingenuous in that you aren't looking for any responses. Seriously, you are the perfect spokesman for a failed policy of a labor union in decline.