Undercutting the undercutters...lovely career

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You might ask APA what happens when "the entire pilot group" violates the RLA. They did a sick-out and it cost them $10 million in fines and almost bankrupted their union. The fact that you can get them to do it is moot. It's against the law and if you do it your union will pay, and your union's officers can go to jail if the feds can pin it on them.

Options...

Many a union members are ready to send their officers to jail.... However, I don't think the public is ready for criminal pilots. If union officers who break the law are willing to do so.. then are their members also willing to do so on the flightdeck? Its not what we think but what the public believes....

In addition, though, I don't think union members are willing to BK their organization.... are they?

 

[Options_SLAVE]

Options...

Many a union members are ready to send their officers to jail.... However, I don't think the public is ready for criminal pilots. If union officers who break the law are willing to do so.. then are their members also willing to do so on the flightdeck? Its not what we think but what the public believes....

In addition, though, I don't think union members are willing to BK their organization.... are they?

I agree completely. I was very involved in our Union at Options. Our primary concern was from day 1 during the campaign to vote in the Union on the property and still is today, making sure we do everything legal and NOTHING illegal. In fact, our motto pretty much, which we have said a million times, is "Do nothing illegal, for or against the company".

The company on the other hand, has constantly done "little things" that "bent" or even blatantly violated the RLA, such as during our campaign changing our domiciles, crew meal policies, crew rest policies, circadium rythm cycles, crew rot (sitting 14 hrs at the FBO), predatory and flat out illegal pilot pushing and threatening, and cummulatively I think we can finally take them to court and beat them over the head with it, including their last boner move, firing 70 of the most supportive union members (including myself).

The RLA is weak for pilots, even though its initial inception was for the workers - lobbyists have since gutted the power of the RLA and it is very pro-company, and a strict set of rules MUST be followed, or you can be fined heavily as a union, be forced to decertify, or individually go to jail. The RLA SUCKS.

This is why it's imperative we don't vote the most anti-pilot and anti-union president we'd have since Reagan and would be equally as dangerous to our industry, John McCain. If he is president, you can pretty much forget any airline Union having any power to strike (legally). And I usually vote republican. NOT McCain.

As a union leader, I may love my pilot group, but I wouldn't be willing to go to jail for them by condoning, endorsing, or participating in any illegal actions, and I certainly would not suggest ANY pilot take matters to that level, you will just lose and in the end won't do anything for the cause.

My advise is to stay legal, ALWAYS, and kill the company with following the LAW and the CONTRACT - to the letter. If an entire pilot group does that, they will win every time, which means the company will have no choice but to bend to the pilots' will, or close the doors, which is not what anyone wants, including management (their bonuses stop).

 

[cmrflyer]

We don't have to worry about the RLA or unions getting sued or an other legal ramifications, if we all give in our two weeks notice at the same time, every airline would sh1t their pants.
Its legal, there is nothing to stop any of us quiting.
Then when the airline realizes what's happening the union can negotiate our return to work.
Management only understand two things, money and threats. We should play their game for once.

 

[BoilerUP]

We don't have to worry about the RLA or unions getting sued or an other legal ramifications, if we all give in our two weeks notice at the same time, every airline would sh1t their pants.
Its legal, there is nothing to stop any of us quiting.
Then when the airline realizes what's happening the union can negotiate our return to work.
Management only understand two things, money and threats. We should play their game for once.

That would be particularly useful if your airline has a contractual right for pilots to withdraw their resignation right up until the effective date...

 

[Options_SLAVE]

I'd love to see that work. Unfortunately, you can't trust everyone. And with no official work action, any pilot who did not quit could not be officially called a Scab. A strong pilot group could make that work, although I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure they would have a problem with this idea, although on the surface, I agree, I don't think there should be any reason why you should not have the right to quit.

However, even if only 40 to 50% of the pilot work force quit it would put such a financial impact on any airline it would be cost-prohibitive to allow it.

Then again, we saw what happened at Eastern. Plenty of Eastern scabs everywhere, and they are senior, now.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Undercutting the undercutters...

The reason I ask the question is because you are expecting ALPA to be or do something it isn't or cannot do...

effectiveness is achieved my the unification of the members..

This is what we were trying to achieve in 2000 with the PID. Delta and Comair were both in Section 6 at the time and the DMEC, doing business as ALPA, could have made it happen but they wanted to spend their negotiating capital on "United plus 1%" which as ~~~^~~~ used to say, assured Delta a seat in bankruptcy court.

It would have been a huge step toward real, meaningful scope and all we ever hear about it now is: "...the nerve of that seniority grab."

The mainliners are about to do it again by leaving Comair, Compass and Mesaba in alter-ego pergatory. If unity isn't the overriding issue, then the union is doomed to fail.

 

[Options_SLAVE]

The mainliners are about to do it again by leaving Comair, Compass and Mesaba in alter-ego pergatory. If unity isn't the overriding issue, then the union is doomed to fail.

Very profound statement. I think you hit the nail on the head. The majors (management) sees the INCREDIBLE value and savings they get by whipsawing the regionals against each other.

Personally, I think the regional market is saturated - even super-saturated. ALL the regional flying is just outsourced mainline flying, and mainlines are shrinking, which means inevitably the regionals will also shrink, meaning that there is more pilots and airplanes than there is flying available for the existing market.

This means furloughs. The majors are going to down-size to the appropriate levels, and force those mainline pilots to fly at their alter-ego B or C scale carriers, or even slum themselves down into the non-Major owned regionals, and ALL the regionals, including American Eagle very shortly, will all be fighting for scraps given to them by the majors and all the regionals get to fight over those scraps. The win-win for management is that those major airline pilots are now doing the same flying for half the cost or less as a regional pilot, and mainline's customer still gets from point A to point B, and they paid the same price they paid for a major airline ticket to fly around in a Barbie Jet.

At the regionals, meanwhile, lowest bidder gets the flying. Losers all get to furlough.

It's a race to the bottom and we all can't get there fast enough.


sh!ty industry to be in. Any person thinking of going to college and learning to fly to be an airline pilot now is crazy and in for a disappointing career.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd love to see that work. Unfortunately, you can't trust everyone. And with no official work action, any pilot who did not quit could not be officially called a Scab. A strong pilot group could make that work, although I'm not a lawyer and I'm sure they would have a problem with this idea, although on the surface, I agree, I don't think there should be any reason why you should not have the right to quit.

However, even if only 40 to 50% of the pilot work force quit it would put such a financial impact on any airline it would be cost-prohibitive to allow it.

Then again, we saw what happened at Eastern. Plenty of Eastern scabs everywhere, and they are senior, now.

As you know.... from Flying the Line Vol 1, Dave Behnke sat down with a stack of pilot resignation letters...

He could submit them on his accord.... and he used these letters to negotiate with management...


Also, the Air Mail pilots decided that the next time one pilot refused to fly for bad wx, they all would.... the first strike.... it worked...


Problem is... I don't see too many pilots with this kind of courage.. oh they talk about the golden age and the good ol days and fret that these days aren[t around from them, but they expect someone else to provide those glorly days....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is what we were trying to achieve in 2000 with the PID. Delta and Comair were both in Section 6 at the time and the DMEC, doing business as ALPA, could have made it happen but they wanted to spend their negotiating capital on "United plus 1%" which as ~~~^~~~ used to say, assured Delta a seat in bankruptcy court.

It would have been a huge step toward real, meaningful scope and all we ever hear about it now is: "...the nerve of that seniority grab."

The mainliners are about to do it again by leaving Comair, Compass and Mesaba in alter-ego pergatory. If unity isn't the overriding issue, then the union is doomed to fail.

We've talked about this.... the CMR/ASA guys couldn't form relationships with DALPA... thus DALPA didn't care to go further.... simplified yes...

 

[N2264J]

Re: Undercutting the undercutters...

We've talked about this.... the CMR/ASA guys couldn't form relationships with DALPA... thus DALPA didn't care to go further.... simplified yes...

You ask hundreds of questions and apparently they're all rhetorical because, in your mind, ALPA isn't doing anything wrong. Isn't that true?

...you are expecting ALPA to be or do something it isn't or cannot do...

ALPA could have fixed the scope problem in 2000 but the Delta pilots were more interested in a "United plus 1%" contract so that's where the bargaining capital went. Unity was traded for dollars by our "union." So now, you're reduced to endorsing the Delta pilots decision in 2000 while crying crocodile tears over scope.

You ask a question then dismiss the answer if it doesn't fit your narrow view of the neoALPA dogma. You're disingenuous in that you aren't looking for any responses. Seriously, you are the perfect spokesman for a failed policy of a labor union in decline.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You ask hundreds of questions and apparently they're all rhetorical because, in your mind, ALPA isn't doing anything wrong. Isn't that true?

No of course not... and if you've read my posts you've seen were I've been critical of ALPA. Also, though, I don't expect ALPA to be something it is not....

but lets get back to the RJDC. Simply put, the RJDC guys did not have the social skills to build relationships with DALPA to get what they wanted... thus they had to sue. That is what a lawsuit is all about.... two or more people/groups who can't work something out....

But let's be fair... DALPA was probably no easy group to work with.... but you can't control DALPA as much as you can control yourselves...

ALPA could have fixed the scope problem in 2000 but the Delta pilots were more interested in a "United plus 1%" contract so that's where the bargaining capital went. Unity was traded for dollars by our "union." So now, you're reduced to endorsing the Delta pilots decision in 2000 while crying crocodile tears over scope.

Thus a flaw in ALPA. How do you expect ALPA with so many different pilot groups to work in lock step? Shouldn't one expect conflict? And that is what EVERY ALPA member fails to realize.. including the Nat'l Officers....

No one works the paradox... we all have this notion that we should be one team.. well we should, but it isn't easy.....

There are two fronts when dealing with teams.. the internal and external.... Take a sports coach... to win his has to beat the opponent... and there is some effort knowing the other team.. but the real effort is dealing within his own team.. managing the personalities, issues, problems, etc...

Most leaders, managers, captain neglect the internal work.. Why should a leader NOT expect is followership to perform the way he wants... this is too simplified... A leader must always be working internally...

Same with flying jets... its not the weather, mx problems, passenger issues...any decent Captain can deal with that... but leading the crew.. that is the hard part... keeping everyone pulling on the same rope...

We have all failed in this regard at ALPA... you, me, the RJDC, DALPA, ALPA Nat'l....

You ask a question then dismiss the answer if it doesn't fit your narrow view of the neoALPA dogma. You're disingenuous in that you aren't looking for any responses. Seriously, you are the perfect spokesman for a failed policy of a labor union in decline.

Screw policy...

until we take a REAL individual interests in our pilot careers we will continue to have this problem... there is nothing wrong with ALPA on paper.. it is a just and democratic organization...


But you want ALPA to do what YOU want it to... well that is in conflict with others.... so how do you get what YOU want? Lawsuits? No... you actually work to solve other pilots problems.... If I know you are looking out for me... then what am I going to do? Yes, I am going to look out for you.... Does that seem strange? Maybe, but didn't the RJDC want DALPA to help solve RJDC problems? Doesn't the TWA pilots sueing ALPA want ALPA to solve TWA pilots' problems? We all want others to solve our problems... so shouldn't we be working to solve other peoples problems?

This is nothing new with human dynamics. The goal is find the common ground. We elect our leaders, but it seems that we can't get good enough leaders to step up to the plate.... why?

And what do we need do when only poor leaders step up to the plate to volunteer to lead?

Answer the italics question please....

 

[Caspian27]

Rez,

I agree with most of what you said in this post. The problem is the whole point of a union is to be unified, not just with your fellow company pilots, but across the company lines...so that you have a consistent front towards ALL management. This unity, as you agree in your post isn't there!

Your suggestion to get it back was for the TWA guys to help the APA somehow, and for RJDC to help DALPA. I don't think that would've done a thing. As you say, it's easier to control yourself, so they (APA/DALPA) controlled themselves to allow themselves to benefit at anothers demise.

The italics question? YOU (the person that recognizes a problem) volunteers to lead and help be part of the solution and not just whine about the problem.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your suggestion to get it back was for the TWA guys to help the APA somehow, and for RJDC to help DALPA. I don't think that would've done a thing.

Respectfully... this is the thinking that doesn't work....

But tell us why it would not have done a thing.... including market, gov't and corporate forces... effecting the outcome of the TWA pilots...


I don't know the details of any situation above... but the human dynamics are the same...

develop relationships, respect and trust... only from there can we proceed....

 

[Caspian27]

Respectfully... this is the thinking that doesn't work....

But tell us why it would not have done a thing.... including market, gov't and corporate forces... effecting the outcome of the TWA pilots...


I don't know the details of any situation above... but the human dynamics are the same...

develop relationships, respect and trust... only from there can we proceed....

I agree. The goal should be to develop relationships and trust. My point was that historically, that hasn't happened. But like you, I'm an outsider to these events, so I can only really speculate based on the end-results.

 

[samballs]

Respectfully... this is the thinking that doesn't work....

But tell us why it would not have done a thing.... including market, gov't and corporate forces... effecting the outcome of the TWA pilots...


I don't know the details of any situation above... but the human dynamics are the same...

develop relationships, respect and trust... only from there can we proceed....

God, you sound like JC Lawson