UAL to not make it through the Winter???

[eaglesview]

Must be nice to have a micro view of the world. How's USAPA working out for the pickleballers?

How's SWAPA working out??? APA???Thes two groups know exactly who THEIR union represents

 

[ualdriver]

How's SWAPA working out??? APA???Thes two groups know exactly who THEIR union represents

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

 

[eaglesview]

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

I respect that you are a diehard fan of ALPA. And I agree that ALPA has more influence right now than an independent union would. However the truth is it annoys the hell out of me that the union I joined in 1988 when I was hired at Eastern now has fallen silent on the outsourcing of jobs at the majors. Why because they also represent many pilots at the regionals. The ALPA I joined in 89 would not have let this go so quietly. How can you argue this is not a conflict of interest. You don't have to look any further than the scope battle we have coming in this contract. I am fed up with flying along side pilots that were hired at UAL over a decade ago just to watch all that experience flushed out onto the street to make room for some outsource jet being flown by the latest Comair academy grad. I along with you take random drug and alchohol test in a room where you are guilty until proven innocent. Why, because it's in the interest of public safety. Isn't having experience in the cockpit in the interest of public safety? Where is MY union??
I am sorry if my desire to have a union that represents ME at MY place of employment upsets you. I am happy to simply agree to disagree with you. Like Democrats and Republicans we both want the same thing but disagree on how to get there.

 

[Mr.B]

Must be nice to have a micro view of the world. How's USAPA working out for the pickleballers?

Hows APA working out for AA? Southwests in-house? UPS? I can tell you from my micro world it looks a hell of a lot better than whats going on at UA.

Perhaps from your expanded view of the world you can see this too.

BTW, whats a pickleballer?

 

[Mr.B]

It's great that you think independent unions are superior than ALPA, but there are shortcomings as well. For example, ALPA has more influence in government than either of those unions because we have 10,000's of thousands of members represented by one union. So now you're probably thinking, so what? Well, when it comes to governmental issues concerning pilots, government officials don't ask the leader of the APA to come and talk to a committee, but Prater does. After the Buffalo crash, it was Prater talking to Congress, not the leaders of SWAPA.

Big deal you're thinking, right? What has ALPA done for me lately, right? Well, right now we have some pretty important changes in regulation that are about to take place within the FAA. It's ALPA that has members providing their input. It's ALPA that is going to influence the direction that regulation is going to take. If we start splintering off into our own little unions, we lose the ability to speak with one voice. Do you think every member of the ATA agrees with everything the ATA does? When ATA loses a political battle, do you see Delta, American, United, etc., threatening to leave the ATA if they don't get their way? Of course not. The individual airline CEOs aren't STUPID. They know that collectively they'll have more influence when the ATA speaks for the industry then if each airline pursued it's own agenda. Pilots on the other hand want to pout, take their toys, and go home when the association that has to please 50,000 pilots doesn't meet their personal desires.

Oh, you mean influencing congress on issues ALPA opposes? Like age 65?

The WSJ has a nice article on the upcoming flight/ duty time regs that may change to allow transcon turns. Is ALPA going to "influence" that too?

 

[Mr.B]

I am fed up with flying along side pilots that were hired at UAL over a decade ago just to watch all that experience flushed out onto the street to make room for some outsource jet being flown by the latest Comair academy grad.

Buy this man a beer.

 

[Stan]

Oh, you mean influencing congress on issues ALPA opposes? Like age 65?

The WSJ has a nice article on the upcoming flight/ duty time regs that may change to allow transcon turns. Is ALPA going to "influence" that too?

They did influence age 65. They made it happen. They are going to influence the flight duty time rigs. Be prepared to deal with the rules that ALPA writes.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Sure, but SWAPA and APA have both been around for 40 years plus. You start an independent union now and you get USAPA or NPA.

www.usapa.org

 

[Plug]

Anyone else notice that CAL and UAL are slowly combining terminals at many airports. NRT seems to be the most recent. Also, in EWR Airtran currently operates out of "A" terminal along with UAL (Star Alliance) and Air Canada (Star Alliance). Last month Airtran and CAL did a slot swap between EWR and DCA resulting in Airtran is pulling out of EWR. Send Alaska and West Jet over to "B" and we now have a whole wing of "A" for Star Alliance carriers. They could end up doing with the "weed whacker scope buster turbo-props" along with the DHC200 that they did with the ERJ and send them over to "A" and make "C" all mainline and Star Aircraft.

CAL and UAL are getting things lined up, I expect an announcement shortly after we (CAL) join Star.

 

[ualdriver]

I respect that you are a diehard fan of ALPA. And I agree that ALPA has more influence right now than an independent union would. However the truth is it annoys the hell out of me that the union I joined in 1988 when I was hired at Eastern now has fallen silent on the outsourcing of jobs at the majors. Why because they also represent many pilots at the regionals. The ALPA I joined in 89 would not have let this go so quietly. How can you argue this is not a conflict of interest. You don't have to look any further than the scope battle we have coming in this contract. I am fed up with flying along side pilots that were hired at UAL over a decade ago just to watch all that experience flushed out onto the street to make room for some outsource jet being flown by the latest Comair academy grad. I along with you take random drug and alchohol test in a room where you are guilty until proven innocent. Why, because it's in the interest of public safety. Isn't having experience in the cockpit in the interest of public safety? Where is MY union??
I am sorry if my desire to have a union that represents ME at MY place of employment upsets you. I am happy to simply agree to disagree with you. Like Democrats and Republicans we both want the same thing but disagree on how to get there.

I respect those opinions as well.

It's not so much that I am a diehard fan of ALPA. It's just that ALPA is the best deal we have going right now. If something better were to come along, I'd want it.

The APA that you mentioned previously also allowed massive outsourcing, even though it is an in-house.

I think your point about furloughing experienced guys and replacing them with inexperienced guys is true, and I think that ALPA National is/was aware of that. But before this unfortunate Buffalo crash, do you think Congress or the FAA would have even entertained ALPA if they had strenuously pushed for say, tougher ATP requirements or minimums for Part 121 airline first officers? Unfortunately, ALPA only influences, and we both know the FAA is a tombstone agency that only does "difficult" things when passengers die and they are forced to. Now that this accident has unfortunately happened, it's ALPA that will be sitting at the big table. I like that because otherwise, particularly with a small in-house union, we'd have zero influence.

It is a conflict of interest to a certain extent to represent the regionals. So let's say tomorrow ALPA boots all the regionals out. OK great- conflict of interest gone. Without strong union representation, what do you think will happen to regional pay, work rules, and benefits? We all reailize that the regionals use more in resources than they take in with dues. Without the benefits and services ALPA provides, would their next contract be better or worse for them? Do we want to help lift regional pay, work rules, and benefits UP and make them a less attractive alternative to a mainline CEO, or do we want to boot them out of ALPA and "hope" things don't get worse for them and they undercut us even further? I think getting rid of that "conflict of interest" is a double edged sword that might have unintended consequences.