UAL Pilots take Skywest and Mesa jobs

[~~~^~~~]

To: Furloughed United Pilots

From: Todd Coomans, UAL-MEC Furlough Coordinator

On Wednesday, the United MEC ratified a letter of agreement with UAL that will allow United pilots to be offered employment with our United Express partners, including Mesa Air and SkyWest. We are in the process of working out the details and will be sending informational packets as soon as they are prepared and ready for shipment. I anticipate this information being in your hands no later than the first week of September.

To be eligible for employment with Mesa Air and SkyWest, a United pilot must be on furlough or have received notice of furlough. Hiring will be administered by the MEC office. Please do not contact Mesa or SkyWest directly about this agreement.

The following are some highlights of the Letter of Agreement prepared by Negotiating Committee Chairman Captain Wendy Morse and her committee.

Number of Jobs - Any feeder carrier that has an agreement with UAL to take delivery of SJs with a certificated seating capacity in excess of 50 seats, but not more than 70, must offer 5 jobs per SJ-70. These are guaranteed jobs, not interviews.
Type of Jobs - At least 60% of the total jobs per carrier must be in the right seat of a jet, the rest can be in any equipment. The jet jobs are not specific to the SJ-70 because the carriers have the same pay rate for 50 and 70 seat jets and will likely operate them as a common fleet type. The jobs will not necessarily be in the carrier’s United Express operation.
Pay rates - All pilots will start at 2nd year jet F/O pay rates. Their pay will remain at that rate until the regular wage scale surpasses it. This rate is $27-35 per hour, depending on the carrier, compared to new-hire pay of $17. UAL is picking up the tab for the difference.
Probation - Pilots will be subject to what we call quasi-probation. They will technically be on “probation,” but they will have access to the same due process as any non-probationary pilot.
Resignation - Pilots will not be required to resign their seniority number from UAL.
Training Bond Repayment - If a pilot is recalled and owes money to the carrier as a result of a training bond, UAL will pay the remaining obligation.
We have posted on the MEC website at www.alpa.org the Letter of Agreement between ALPA and UAL, as well as links to the Mesa Air collective bargaining agreement, Mesa Air domiciles and equipment, the Mesa Air website and the SkyWest website. Please note that the pilot section of SkyWest.com is expected to be offline until mid October. We will post more information on SkyWest as it becomes available.

It is important that your MEC has current information on all furloughed United pilots. Please be certain that ALPA and United have your address, phone number, e-mail and other relevant information.

Please be patient. More information will be provided as it becomes available.

 

[General Lee]

It would be nice if Delta would do that for their furloughs, but they won't. And, atleast one of our DCI carriers doesn't want CRM problems. Atleast ASA and Chataqua offered jobs without resigning seniority, which will be remembered.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

How will ALPA ever decide the conflict when a UAL and a US Air pilot get in a nit about a position notice at Mesa? Oh, nevermind, the Delta MEC Presides over inner - ALPA conflicts. I forgot...

So the US Air pilot is Captain, since the UAL pilot is FO? How the heck does this work? What if the UAL pilot wants to upgrade?

Well, at least Orenstien is taken care of, training expenses, extra pay and the grievances will be paid by UAL. Wonder if UAL can write a check that cashes these days?

This is mind bogglin. Time for me to write another check to the RJDC, and my checks do cash.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

I just dont get it...

A guy gets kicked out by UAL and gets a jet job with second year pay over guys that have already been there?

And the training obligations and pay difference will be picked up buy UAL whos still in BK?How is that supposed to work..?

I have never been a supporter of anybody being out of a job..But..How is this fair to those guys that went through the whole hiring process and then see some UAL guy just walk in and get second year pay and no probation..

As ive said before..What happens when things get better and all of these "Jets for Jobs" people go back to the big show..
Whos going to pay for all the retraining as they leave!!UAL?

What happens if UAL fails to recover and part of their ongoing restructoring means they cant pay for the different pay scale and training/retraining?


Sounds like its going to be very quiet in some of those cockpits..

I must be missing something here

 

[fracflyer]

I just dont get it...

A guy gets kicked out by UAL and gets a jet job with second year pay over guys that have already been there?

And the training obligations and pay difference will be picked up buy UAL whos still in BK?How is that supposed to work..?

I have never been a supporter of anybody being out of a job..But..How is this fair to those guys that went through the whole hiring process and then see some UAL guy just walk in and get second year pay and no probation..

As ive said before..What happens when things get better and all of these "Jets for Jobs" people go back to the big show..
Whos going to pay for all the retraining as they leave!!UAL?

What happens if UAL fails to recover and part of their ongoing restructoring means they cant pay for the different pay scale and training/retraining?


Sounds like its going to be very quiet in some of those cockpits..

I must be missing something here

The United guys will be at the bottom of the senority list and be behind everyone else. The second year pay difference they'll be making will be paid by United, not by the express carrier. So they're not getting anything more out of the express carrier that everyone else is. I don't think that's unfair to anyone. When the folks go back to UAL and the majors start hiring again then all the pilot will be leaving, so the furloughed people leaving will be few of many.

This is a good opportunity (kinda)for the UAL folks getting kicked to the street. I disagree with your assertion that it hurts anyone else.

 

[MDP727]

Will all the commuter folks be guaranteed jobs at UAL?

 

[MDP727]

Give me a break general! How long have you guys been crapping on those comair pilots? You and AA are one in the same.

 

[typhoonpilot]

UAL pilots keep jobs

Isn't that what you meant to say ~~~^~~~ ?

The headline for the last three years was actually Mesa and Skywest take jobs away from mainline pilots of UAL, USAirways, etc.

While Jets for Jobs is far from a good deal for anyone concerned it is at least a step in the right direction.

Your perspective just depends on which side of the fence you are sitting. It's called " The definition game ". People will always define what is just and fair based on how it affects them.

MLBWINGBORN brings up a good point about Mesa and having both USAirways and UAL pilots participating in J4J. I find it ironic how the new hire United pilots of a few years ago were screaming that USAirways pilots would go on the bottom of any combined list since their " career expectations " were so much better. Now they will quite possibly be flying right seat for a furloughed USAirways pilot at a disliked regional with poor work rules. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in one of those cockpits.

Typhoonpilot

 

[Carl_Everett]

The United guys will be at the bottom of the senority list and be behind everyone else. The second year pay difference they'll be making will be paid by United, not by the express carrier. So they're not getting anything more out of the express carrier that everyone else is. I don't think that's unfair to anyone. When the folks go back to UAL and the majors start hiring again then all the pilot will be leaving, so the furloughed people leaving will be few of many.

This is a good opportunity (kinda)for the UAL folks getting kicked to the street. I disagree with your assertion that it hurts anyone else.

How can you say it will not hurt anyone else? Remember all of the pay cuts at SkyWest and Airwisky? Guess where that money is going...

Regional pilots take a pay cut to finance the mainline furlough placement program, yeah that doesn't hurt anyone. The pay differnence is not being paid by United, it is being paid by Skywest and AirWhisky pilots.

 

[9guy]

Inconceivable

I was a regional airline pilot for a long time. I moved up to a bigger airline, and promptly got furloughed. I have all the sympathy in the world for pilots who are out of work, including my many, many friends who got furloughed from United.

That being said, this proposal is just appalling. Now United has created new financial obligations for itself, and funding them on the backs of underpaid, overworked regional airline pilots. They ought to be ashamed of themselves.

9g

 

[WorldSeries]

How does this help United??? they are losing millions a day and now they are going to pay labor for employees that are not even working for United??? it might only be 15 an hour, but if a few hundred go after this, it will add up. UAL could take that money they are going to spend, to pay the furloughed guy to fly for someone else, and use that money to recall 100 mainline guys. the only way i could see this as being some benfit is if UAL management has plans to get many many many RJ 70- 90 seater in the future and try to use this jet for jobs as a bargaining tool with mailine pilots in future negoiations such as scope limits?????? i hate to see any pilots on the street so this is good, but it just seems odd that Ual managemnet would agree to pay for anything costs to support this when they are losing so much per day.

 

[fracflyer]

How can you say it will not hurt anyone else? Remember all of the pay cuts at SkyWest and Airwisky? Guess where that money is going...

Regional pilots take a pay cut to finance the mainline furlough placement program, yeah that doesn't hurt anyone. The pay differnence is not being paid by United, it is being paid by Skywest and AirWhisky pilots.

That's pretty imaginative if you really think that's true. We’re talking about a small amount of money that only lasts until the pilot reaches second year pay anyway. Instead of blaming everyone else for your pay rates, maybe you should do something about it.

 

[AAflyer]

Carl E,

Wow, I don't think those numbers will add up to the pay cuts that have been taken at the regionals. Do you want to know some numbers that do?

Usairways pilots take pay cuts, and have their pensions destroyed, pension money then used to purchase RJs. If you would like to complain, how about them apples.

Wow, I can point to a few people on this board that live by the slogan, "It is all about me"..Does anyone really wonder why our careers will continue to be eroded.

AA (ex Eagle)
According to MDP727, just another one of those guys sh1tting all
over Eagle.

 

[RUhiring?]

Will all the commuter folks be guaranteed jobs at UAL?

If you want it to work both ways, you have to provide the same incentives.....

The commuters (regionals) will have to provide a route system, a worldwide trademark, and sweet operating contracts that allow UAL to buy a whole new fleet of jets.

Then the regional guys can get guaranteed jobs at UAL if they get furloughed as a result.

 

[Carl_Everett]

Carl E,

Wow, I don't think those numbers will add up to the pay cuts that have been taken at the regionals. Do you want to know some numbers that do?

Usairways pilots take pay cuts, and have their pensions destroyed, pension money then used to purchase RJs. If you would like to complain, how about them apples.

Wow, I can point to a few people on this board that live by the slogan, "It is all about me"..Does anyone really wonder why our careers will continue to be eroded.

AA (ex Eagle)
According to MDP727, just another one of those guys sh1tting all
over Eagle.

The amount of money spent will be substantial, however. In addition to the extra 10-15 bucks an hour that will be paid, UAL also has to pay any training contracts if they recall. All of this goes to a bottom line of an outside carrier, possibly not even flying in the UAL system. Not too bad of a deal for the regional management types. Quality cheap labor, training cost recoup, and guaranteed growth.

As for US Airways, you forgot to mention that those same US Airways guys will be now flying those same RJ's for substandard wages, no pension, garbage work rules, etc. RJ's that should have been on the USAIR property to begin with. If you ask me those apples are rotten. This system is broken and it is gonna take someone a lot smarter than you or me to fix it.

 

[Carl_Everett]

That's pretty imaginative if you really think that's true. We’re talking about a small amount of money that only lasts until the pilot reaches second year pay anyway. Instead of blaming everyone else for your pay rates, maybe you should do something about it.

Where did I blame anyone for payrates? I was making a point about the current situation. Pilots from one company took paycuts to help the bottom line of UAL. UAL then will take a portion of that cost savings, and instead of helping their own bottom line, will send that money to a company were it may or may not be used in the UAL route system.

I bet that during the concessionary road shows the selling point about concessions did not include an hour on how a part of these pay cuts would be funding UAL furloughee pay checks. Do you really think any of those T/A's would have passed if they did?

 

[fracflyer]

Don't blame the UAL pilots for you not having the balls to vote no. Since you're so concerned with where the money is coming from, then assume it's from the 30-50% paycuts the pilots at UAL took. In fact, the cost of the program will probably be so small that UAL could switch from double-ply toilet paper to single-ply to pay for it.

 

[Carl_Everett]

Don't blame the UAL pilots for you not having the balls to vote no. Since you're so concerned with where the money is coming from, then assume it's from the 30-50% paycuts the pilots at UAL took. In fact, the cost of the program will probably be so small that UAL could switch from double-ply toilet paper to single-ply to pay for it.

If the unions at those carriers knew about what was going to happen, those T/A's would have never even been put to a vote.

It is foolish for you to be backing this logic. Don't you think that 30-50% from UAL pilots should be going to the bottom line of UAL? Wouldn't it make more sense to make UAL stronger, allow for UAL growth, and recalls back to UAL? The money saved on two-ply toilet paper could be going into UAL's pilot pension fund. If I flew for UAL I would be outraged. Do you think the UAL furloughees will have the balls to refuse the job offer? If they go to one of these carriers, they will be just as guilty as those who voted YES for pay cuts/substandard contracts.

 

[JJJ]

I don't think that UAL having to repay training contracts will be an issue. Which of the UA regionals have training contracts, and how long are they for?

In the unlikely situation where UAL recalled all of it's pilots before their training contracts were up, it would mean that UAL would be making money, and getting their pilots back to fly mainline A/C would outweigh the cost of repaying a training contract.

But what are the chances of a full recall at UAL in the next 2 years?

 

[fracflyer]

If the unions at those carriers knew about what was going to happen, those T/A's would have never even been put to a vote.

It is foolish for you to be backing this logic. Don't you think that 30-50% from UAL pilots should be going to the bottom line of UAL? Wouldn't it make more sense to make UAL stronger, allow for UAL growth, and recalls back to UAL? The money saved on two-ply toilet paper could be going into UAL's pilot pension fund. If I flew for UAL I would be outraged. Do you think the UAL furloughees will have the balls to refuse the job offer? If they go to one of these carriers, they will be just as guilty as those who voted YES for pay cuts/substandard contracts.

I believe you're using the logic, "Someone is getting something I'm not. I must be geting screwed."

If I was still at UAL I would be happy that the furloughed pilots were getting a little something to help them and their families out. The expense is chump change, and I think ALPA did the pilots a good service by giving them this option. (they don't have to do it)

From a business point of view, I think the dividends in Pilot/management relations will be 10x the cost.

 

[fracflyer]

But what are the chances of a full recall at UAL in the next 2 years?

Somewhere less than zero

 

[GuppyPuppy]

What happens if UAL fails to recover and part of their ongoing restructoring means they cant pay for the different pay scale and training/retraining?

eek:

If UAL folds up or if ANY flying is lost at Mesa/SkyWest due to UAL, these guys should be the first to go back to the street.

I was furloughed in January from UA and currently working for a UAX carrier. Should I complain to UAL and ALPA to ask for back pay since I have been flying their passengers around on UAX RJ's already?

Many of those UAL pilots who will benefit from this program will not even touch a CRJ700. They will be flying the same trips that I do, but getting more money - thanks United.

I wonder if ALPA ever thought about those of us furloughees who are already flying UA passengers around on UAX RJ's. Probably not - thanks ALPA.

GP

 

[fracflyer]

If UAL folds up or if ANY flying is lost at Mesa/SkyWest due to UAL, these guys should be the first to go back to the street.

I was furloughed in January from UA and currently working for a UAX carrier. Should I complain to UAL and ALPA to ask for back pay since I have been flying their passengers around on UAX RJ's already?

Many of those UAL pilots who will benefit from this program will not even touch a CRJ700. They will be flying the same trips that I do, but getting more money - thanks United.

I wonder if ALPA ever thought about those of us furloughees who are already flying UA passengers around on UAX RJ's. Probably not - thanks ALPA.

GP

1. They'll be at the bottom of the senority list, why wouldn't they be the first to go?

2. By the time this gets up and running you'll probably be at or close to second year pay.

3. I was furlouged almost two years ago, and I know this will never help me, but I'm glad someone might benifit. It doesn't hurt anybody.

Peace

 

[Carl_Everett]

I believe you're using the logic, "Someone is getting something I'm not. I must be geting screwed."

If I was still at UAL I would be happy that the furloughed pilots were getting a little something to help them and their families out. The expense is chump change, and I think ALPA did the pilots a good service by giving them this option. (they don't have to do it)

From a business point of view, I think the dividends in Pilot/management relations will be 10x the cost.

I am not using that logic at all.

What people need to realize is that this is not helping UAL pilots. It is not helping regional pilots. It is ruining the profession. This is driving pilot's pay down on both sides.

You said regional pilots didn't have the balls to vote down a concessionary T/A, that is why the pay is so bad there. What was the other option? Vote no and risk furlough, or worse liquidation. Are you happy that regional pilots are at least getting a little something to help them and thier families? I mean they aren't getting what what they deserve, but at least it is something.

You logic here will prevent any UAL furloughee from returning to UAL. Why should UAL grow mainline? They get great rates from the regionals. If they grow mainline, labor costs willl go up. If they grow Express, they can use the BAIN technique to drive Express labor cost down futher and make even more money for UAL. (Remember UAL now has the option to change the flying allocations after a set amount of time) If we keep going down that path, the logical progression will be that UAL will stop operating aircraft all together. They will farm out all flying and only sell tickets.

Back to you idea of my logic. Isn't that what every mainline pilot in the past 10 years has complained about. Regional pilots getting something that they are not getting. They must be getting screwed. [Read RJ's]

 

[Carl_Everett]

I don't think that UAL having to repay training contracts will be an issue. Which of the UA regionals have training contracts, and how long are they for?

In the unlikely situation where UAL recalled all of it's pilots before their training contracts were up, it would mean that UAL would be making money, and getting their pilots back to fly mainline A/C would outweigh the cost of repaying a training contract.

But what are the chances of a full recall at UAL in the next 2 years?

How much do you wanna bet that just before the 1st UAL pilot heads over to MESA, J.O. will make the training contract 7 years? I don't think the unions have any control over training contracts. Management has the option to change them at will.

 

[fracflyer]

I am not using that logic at all.

What people need to realize is that this is not helping UAL pilots. It is not helping regional pilots. It is ruining the profession. This is driving pilot's pay down on both sides.

You said regional pilots didn't have the balls to vote down a concessionary T/A, that is why the pay is so bad there. What was the other option? Vote no and risk furlough, or worse liquidation. Are you happy that regional pilots are at least getting a little something to help them and thier families? I mean they aren't getting what what they deserve, but at least it is something.

You logic here will prevent any UAL furloughee from returning to UAL. Why should UAL grow mainline? They get great rates from the regionals. If they grow mainline, labor costs willl go up. If they grow Express, they can use the BAIN technique to drive Express labor cost down futher and make even more money for UAL. (Remember UAL now has the option to change the flying allocations after a set amount of time) If we keep going down that path, the logical progression will be that UAL will stop operating aircraft all together. They will farm out all flying and only sell tickets.

Back to you idea of my logic. Isn't that what every mainline pilot in the past 20 years has complained about. Regional pilots getting something that they are not getting. They must be getting screwed. [Read RJ's]

I can't say I disagree with your arguments regarding the future of the industry, but that is an entirely different subject from the one at hand. A few UAL pilots going to Mesa or Skywest has nothing to do with this. Mesa or Skywest would hire pilots anyway. This is not going to influence the future of the profession.

Now, if you're saying that UAL ALPA should of never allowed reduction of the scope provisions to allow 70 RJ's in the first place, that's a different story. However, they're just following the example of the boys at DAL and AA that led the way.

On the RJ question, the difference is that the RJ's DID end up screwing the mainline guys. Not to blame the regional guys, but ALPA dropped the ball on the RJ issue.

In my opinion, for the last 10 years the mainline guys have tried to push down the regional guys. The regional guys have spent the time pushing back. In the end management will win and we'll only have ourselves to blame

Good luck

 

[Carl_Everett]

..snip..

A few UAL pilots going to Mesa or Skywest has nothing to do with this. Mesa or Skywest would hire pilots anyway. This is not going to influence the future of the profession.

..snip..

But UAL ALPA had to use negotiating capital to get this deal. How much of that pay cut do you think was from this deal? Did management want 1%-2% in pay cuts in exchange for this psuedo J4J deal? Maybe it was a work rule change. I bet they just didn't "give" it to the pilots for nothing, out of the goodness of their hearts. Whatever it was, it was too much. Like you said those furloughs could have went to MESA anyway. The UAL pilot group had to give something up for basically nothing.

UAL should be using ALL assets to help the bottom line of UAL. That is the only way UAL pilots will benefit.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

The roots of the problem go back to deregulation. If the majors hadn't shifted flying to lower cost regionals they would be out of business. It's that simple. Free markets and capitalism is what you're up against. U had the most restrictive scope and they were the first to fall. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is we have more applicants than postions. It gets further complicated when you throw in someone like Ornstein combined with a pilot group that failed to simply wait for the judge to render the single carrier ruling. Doh!

 

[fracflyer]

But UAL ALPA had to use negotiating capital to get this deal. How much of that pay cut do you think was from this deal? Did management want 1%-2% in pay cuts in exchange for this psuedo J4J deal? Maybe it was a work rule change. I bet they just didn't "give" it to the pilots for nothing, out of the goodness of their hearts. Whatever it was, it was too much. Like you said those furloughs could have went to MESA anyway. The UAL pilot group had to give something up for basically nothing.

UAL should be using ALL assets to help the bottom line of UAL. That is the only way UAL pilots will benefit.

Since this agreement was well after the new contract, I assume nothing was given up. The 70 seat jets were coming anyway. Probably done as a goodwill jesture for the pilots. God knows they need some goodwill at UAL.

 

[fracflyer]

The roots of the problem go back to deregulation. If the majors hadn't shifted flying to lower cost regionals they would be out of business. It's that simple. Free markets and capitalism is what you're up against. U had the most restrictive scope and they were the first to fall. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is we have more applicants than postions. It gets further complicated when you throw in someone like Ornstein combined with a pilot group that failed to simply wait for the judge to render the single carrier ruling. Doh!

I've got to disagree on a couple points:

1. If none of the majors had been allowed to shift flying to regionals then the playing field would of remained level and they would of had to complete against each other.


1.5 U had bigger problems than restrictive scope.

2. I believe in capitalism, but the entire reason unions exist is to control it. If pure capitalism was allowed to exist, then we'd all be making 25 cents/hr flying our 100 hours a month.

3. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is not because you have so many applicants. The majors had 10x the applicants when they were hiring. It's because people see the regionals a stepping stone. They're aprehensive to stick their necks out and stand up for better pay and working conditions, because they think the major job is right around the corner. (Of course the Comair guys do have brass ones with their 90 day strike) The key is organization and unity.