UAL Pilots take Skywest and Mesa jobs

[MAK]

What people need to realize is that this is not helping UAL pilots. It is not helping regional pilots. It is ruining the profession. This is driving pilot's pay down on both sides.
[Read RJ's]

EXACTLY!!!!!

The larger the regionals get, the smaller the majors get, the less good jobs there are for EVERYBODY.

-MAK

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I've got to disagree on a couple points:

1. If none of the majors had been allowed to shift flying to regionals then the playing field would of remained level and they would of had to complete against each other.

2. I believe in capitalism, but the entire reason unions exist is to control it. If pure capitalism was allowed to exist, then we'd all be making 25 cents/hr flying our 100 hours a month.

Fracflyer,
I'd like to address your comments.
1. If no LCC's had come into existence then your assertion would be correct. However with LCC's in the picture not shifting flying to regionals would have spelled economic disaster even sooner. The majors may have been able to compete effectively in the long-haul international arena but the bread and butter domestic flying would have simply evaporated to a great extent. You can't sell a SFO-OAK seat in quantity for $1,000 when you competition offers it for $200.

2. I disagree with your definition of a union's role in "controlling capitalism." Unions cannot control an industry when some of the players are non-union. ALPA does not control how much a 737 captain at Southwest or what an A-320 captain at JBLU makes. Similarly they cannot control the work rules at Southwest or JBLU. Although Southwest is unionized their management enjoys a relatively good relationship with labor and SWAPA has wisely avoided killing the goose laying the golden eggs and further they have not alienated customers with labor actions.

 

[fracflyer]

Fracflyer,
I'd like to address your comments.
1. If no LCC's had come into existence then your assertion would be correct. However with LCC's in the picture not shifting flying to regionals would have spelled economic disaster even sooner. The majors may have been able to compete effectively in the long-haul international arena but the bread and butter domestic flying would have simply evaporated to a great extent. You can't sell a SFO-OAK seat in quantity for $1,000 when you competition offers it for $200.

2. I disagree with your definition of a union's role in "controlling capitalism." Unions cannot control an industry when some of the players are non-union. ALPA does not control how much a 737 captain at Southwest or what an A-320 captain at JBLU makes. Similarly they cannot control the work rules at Southwest or JBLU. Although Southwest is unionized their management enjoys a relatively good relationship with labor and SWAPA has wisely avoided killing the goose laying the golden eggs and further they have not alienated customers with labor actions.

1. As far as pilots are concerned, I think it would of been better if the majors had been forced to deal directly with SWA and JetBlue. Instead of farming flying out to regional carriers, they would of had to create a division to compete with them. At least the jobs would have stayed at the major and expanded the chances of everyone.

2. I disagree. ALPA does significantly influence the wages at SWA and JBLU. If SWA or JBLU wants to have happy pilot groups then they have to offer competitive compensation packages to keep their employees happy. Pilots in every type of aviation benefit from the years of union advances at the majors. I don't think corporate pilots would make what they do unless employers had to remain competitive with Airline wages. The regionals, for reasons I mentioned above, are the most notable exception.
Good luck

 

[AAflyer]

The regionals are for the time being. I wonder how quickly this will change as they become places that one may spend a majority of their careers. If they get those gains then there goes the original benefit of farming out that flying to cheaper paid labor.

So the big question is what will happen?

AA

To smart to guess, knowing how fluid and dynamic this industry is

 

[fracflyer]

The question should be, how (or when) can we make it happen?

 

[~~~^~~~]

EXACTLY!!!!!

The larger the regionals get, the smaller the majors get, the less good jobs there are for EVERYBODY.

-MAK

But you assume that "Regionals" have to be bad jobs. When I was a kid, Delta was a "Regional." Pan Am, Eastern, UAL and TWA were the big boys. But a Delta pilot on a 67 seat DC-9 did not have a "bad" job.

What has changed over the years is ALPA's negotiating pattern. Back in the good old days the union "jacked up the house" by lifting every corner to elevate the profession.

Now a days ALPA has slipped into letting a couple of MEC's run the entire union for the exclusive benefit of their members and the detriment of everyone else. The favored MEC's ascended to the current level of DAL. Now the house of cards is collapsing because the foundation is not firm. Two of the corners of the house of ALPA got jacked so high, that the house is falling in.

Why are "Regional" jobs bad? One reason is that the Delta MEC has proposed pay cuts for "all Delta employees" to offset the mainline pay cuts - so an ASA pilot at industry average wages is being asked by his own union (without his MEC's participation) to take a pay cut to supplement the income of a pilot at Delta making 47% more than the most highly paid pilot on the planet and 60% more than the industry average for the equipment.

Regional jobs don't have to stink - it is simply a result of the representation ALPA has provided. The union forgot about "restoring the industry," the union forgot we are all in this together.

~~~^~~~

 

[enigma]

I've got to disagree on a couple points:

1. If none of the majors had been allowed to shift flying to regionals then the playing field would of remained level and they would of had to complete against each other.

In your perfect world, just who would be in charge of controlling where the majors shifted their flying? How would you have denied new entry to the market? How would you have made them compete against each other?

2. I believe in capitalism, but the entire reason unions exist is to control it. If pure capitalism was allowed to exist, then we'd all be making 25 cents/hr flying our 100 hours a month.

So it would seem that you believe in "situational capitalism". You believe in it, but just not for your industry. That sort of sounds like the phrase I hear about taxes. "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the guy behind the tree".

Your conclusion about the result of pure capitalism only shows your lack of understanding of economics. A purely competitive marketplace will always reach a level of equilibrium. In our present system, beginners see the upper level of earnings paid out to international777 Captains and they decide to work for nothing in order to get to that level. As long as unions play favorites and prop up the wages for a select few, it basically guarantees that those at the bottom will continue to sacrific in order to be in a position that might allow them to one day gain the top level job. The problem is this, the low wages accepted by the bottom only drag down the numbers of people working at the top wages. If the true effect of accepting slave wages at the bottom were unveiled, it is almost a given that the downward pressure would be stopped because top level wages no longer exist across the board. However, since the union manages to protect the favored few, all of the entry level aspirants continue to see the illusive pot of gold at rainbows end and continue to work for nothing in an attempt to reach said pot.

So, I study the socio-economics of the situation and conclude that the problem we face is not entry level wannabees, nor top wage earning pilots, nor the free market. Our problem is a union structure that continues to ignore true market forces. If ALPA were to take on the characteristics of a benevolent dictatorship, we could all do well. As long as ALPA tries to maintain Mr. Worths wages and supress Mr. Commuter Pilots wages, we will continue to see wages and working conditions slide.

If ALPA were to allow market realities to set wages, and concentrate on what they really do best, like: working conditions, safety, legal help, etc,; we would all be making a decent wage and working in an acceptable environment. As long as DAL, etc has 777 Captains making a quarter of a mil, the aspirants will continue to work for nothing and drag the rest of us down.

3. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is not because you have so many applicants. The majors had 10x the applicants when they were hiring. It's because people see the regionals a stepping stone. They're aprehensive to stick their necks out and stand up for better pay and working conditions, because they think the major job is right around the corner. (Of course the Comair guys do have brass ones with their 90 day strike) The key is organization and unity.

Exactly. But point three is in conflict with points one and two. Which perspective do your really believe in?

regards,
enigma

 

[surplus1]

Re: UAL pilots keep jobs

While Jets for Jobs is far from a good deal for anyone concerned it is at least a step in the right direction.

A step in the right direction? For whom? Looks to me like you're playing the very "definition game" that you outlined, i.e., what is just and fair is based on how it affects you (or your peers).

The idea of preferential hiring at the bottom of the list is not bad. The idea that a newly hiried pilot should make more than a previously hired pilot at the same airline, for the same job, is a bad precedent for everyone, no matter who "pays for it". So much for the "UAL deal".

The USAirways deal is a different animal. Plain and simple it is the theft of seniority. It aslo forces the abrogation of labor contracts. It discriminates against some members of a labor union in favor of other members of the same labor union, both in different and separate bargaining units. That makes it violate the law and the unions DFR obligation. To say that that is a "step in the right direction" is ludicrous.

This isn't a question of perspective, it's a question of ethics and of law. Apparently neither ALPA or the mainline pilot groups can grasp this. Neither can the regional groups that "agreed" (coerced or not) to accept this garbage.

The labor union that invented "jets for jobs" should be sued out of existence and enjoined from implementing it. Too bad the abused don't seem to have the moxy to stand up for themselves.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

What do you think about the USAir "Midatlantic" deal? I know it hasn't started yet, but they do have orders for the EMB-170's, and they should be on the way eventually. As I understand it, the Mid Atlantic deal provides 70 seaters for their own furloughs. I wish Delta would do that for theirs. That is the example I bring up to the Dalpa people and the management people in the ATL CPO. USAir actually might be trying to take care of their own. Sure, the pay rates have gone down tremendously, but I bet our furloughed pilots wouldn't mind the Comair contract, especially if their furlough might be an extended one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus, do you think J4J is radically different from staple? I was under the impression that the majority of CMR/ASA pilots would go for the staple...

 

[fracflyer]

In your perfect world, just who would be in charge of controlling where the majors shifted their flying? How would you have denied new entry to the market? How would you have made them compete against each other?

1. In my perfect world scope language at the beginning would of prevented flying being farmed out to another pilot group. This situation has resulted in us (pilots) having to fight each other. There would of been no entry denied to the market, but all planes with United or Delta etc. on the tail should of been flown by pilots on the United, Delta, etc. senority list. United, AMR, and Delta should have to compete against each other. Not ACA pilots vs. UAL pilots and ASA/Comair pilots vs. Delta pilots. ALPA dropped this ball at the beginning and never saw the long term implications of the RJ.



So it would seem that you believe in "situational capitalism". You believe in it, but just not for your industry. That sort of sounds like the phrase I hear about taxes. "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the guy behind the tree".

Your conclusion about the result of pure capitalism only shows your lack of understanding of economics. A purely competitive marketplace will always reach a level of equilibrium. In our present system, beginners see the upper level of earnings paid out to international777 Captains and they decide to work for nothing in order to get to that level. As long as unions play favorites and prop up the wages for a select few, it basically guarantees that those at the bottom will continue to sacrific in order to be in a position that might allow them to one day gain the top level job. The problem is this, the low wages accepted by the bottom only drag down the numbers of people working at the top wages. If the true effect of accepting slave wages at the bottom were unveiled, it is almost a given that the downward pressure would be stopped because top level wages no longer exist across the board. However, since the union manages to protect the favored few, all of the entry level aspirants continue to see the illusive pot of gold at rainbows end and continue to work for nothing in an attempt to reach said pot.



So, I study the socio-economics of the situation and conclude that the problem we face is not entry level wannabees, nor top wage earning pilots, nor the free market. Our problem is a union structure that continues to ignore true market forces. If ALPA were to take on the characteristics of a benevolent dictatorship, we could all do well. As long as ALPA tries to maintain Mr. Worths wages and supress Mr. Commuter Pilots wages, we will continue to see wages and working conditions slide.

If ALPA were to allow market realities to set wages, and concentrate on what they really do best, like: working conditions, safety, legal help, etc,; we would all be making a decent wage and working in an acceptable environment. As long as DAL, etc has 777 Captains making a quarter of a mil, the aspirants will continue to work for nothing and drag the rest of us down.

Maybe you need to read a little history if you really think the free market is setting pilot wages in aviation. There are thousands of pilots that would do the same job a pilot at the majors do for 50% of the money. If supply and demand were allowed to run free, then a 777 captain would be lucky to make 50K and a F/O 30K. Why do you think the Big 3 had 10,000 applications on file during the hiring rush of the late 90's? Unions, in general, have raised the standard of all workers in America. Where do you think the 5 day work week came from? How about the 40 hours week? How about retirement plans and employer provided health insurance. I believe in the free market, but the uncontrolled market treats people like any other resource. One to be used up and thrown away. Read Upton Sinclar's "The Jungle" to see how workers were treated at the turn of century before unions gained power. Capitalism must be tempered with Unions and government regulations to protect workers.

The answer? I think ALPA needs a strategy that allows pilots to bargin on a single level. Not against each other. How are they going to do it? It might be too late.



Exactly. But point three is in conflict with points one and two. Which perspective do your really believe in?

regards,
enigma

Point three is fully in compliance with my other ones. It's an easy example of how the supply of pilots far outweighs the demand, however Unions have been able to keep wages high. If the market were allowed to set wages we'd all be making next to nothing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus, do you think J4J is radically different from staple? I was under the impression that the majority of CMR/ASA pilots would go for the staple...

*J4J allows pilots from another airline to take the most senior positions and schedules, denying the rightful seniority list holder of his, or her, seniority.

*J4J presumes that the regional pilots are second class citizens, to be at a second class airline that can be limited, controlled, or destroyed at the whim of the mainline MEC.

*J4J gives the regional pilots the promise of possible future expansion in exchange for giving up pay and position now. In every J4J, or flow through, type deal the regional pilot has never realized the reward for their sacrifice. In every case, the major pilots have taken what they want and years later the regional pilots are forgotten. The best examples of flow throughs are COEX and Eagle. The best example of J4J is the US Air Wholly Owneds. Flow throughs and J4J have destroyed many ALPA members' jobs.

*J4J allows pilots at another airline to control the careers, wages and working conditions of pilots at a separate carrier. The pilots at the regional have little say and no representation in matters effecting their employment.

*J4J puts pilots who have no interest in the success of the airline (after all, it isn't "their" airline) in control of the ship. An airline like CHQ may find that their rather incredible perofrmance numbers are not delivered when disgruntled US Air pilots are at the helm of Republic jets - particularly as former $200,000 a year pilots tire of $40 something thousand pay and difficult working conditions.

*A staple is one list. Everyone has a seniority number and has the rights that the seniority number provides.

*One list means one MEC structure, one representational structure, one negotiating agenda.

*One list means one team. While there may be differences between interests of the senior and junior pilots, they both are in the same boat together and dependent on the success of their airline.

Surplus 1 is better read than I am and can probably add a hundered points to my list.

Thanks for asking
~~~^~~~

 

[Freight Dog]

*J4J allows pilots from another airline to take the most senior positions and schedules, denying the rightful seniority list holder of his, or her, seniority.

So fins, are you being selective here? For example, you are flying your CRJ under DL code. MD88 crew that used to do that route is now in unemployment line or at Home Depot while you are flying your shiny new CRJ. Is it not their right to protect themselves? After all, you gain your seniority at their expense.

*J4J presumes that the regional pilots are second class citizens, to be at a second class airline that can be limited, controlled, or destroyed at the whim of the mainline MEC.

I'd say MEC is looking after its members' interests since YOU are taking the flying away from them because YOU are cheap labor. Secondly, you are STILL outnumbered in ALPA national by mainline... democracy rules. I highly doubt that mainline MEC's wake up in the morning thinking of ways to screw the "second-class" regional guys. Second-class.... please!!!

*J4J gives the regional pilots the promise of possible future expansion in exchange for giving up pay and position now. In every J4J, or flow through, type deal the regional pilot has never realized the reward for their sacrifice. In every case, the major pilots have taken what they want and years later the regional pilots are forgotten. The best examples of flow throughs are COEX and Eagle. The best example of J4J is the US Air Wholly Owneds. Flow throughs and J4J have destroyed many ALPA members' jobs.

The difference between those flowthrough setups and the J4J as I understand it is that if you want to fly A330 at USAir, you have to start in a Dash 8 first. Correct me if I'm wrong. Whereas, in any of those above, you can be bypassed. See, flowthrough is a double-edge sword. It's great for you when the mainline is hiring, but sucks for you when they're furloughing. That's the chance you take.

*J4J allows pilots at another airline to control the careers, wages and working conditions of pilots at a separate carrier. The pilots at the regional have little say and no representation in matters effecting their employment.

How's that? Can Capt. Burguey just arbitrarily say hey.. we're putting our 1310 furloughees at Comair? Naww... the pilots had to vote to allow J4J. You can cry me a river about tough choices, but ultimately, they voted for it...

*J4J puts pilots who have no interest in the success of the airline (after all, it isn't "their" airline) in control of the ship. An airline like CHQ may find that their rather incredible perofrmance numbers are not delivered when disgruntled US Air pilots are at the helm of Republic jets - particularly as former $200,000 a year pilots tire of $40 something thousand pay and difficult working conditions.

Hasnt happened yet...

*A staple is one list. Everyone has a seniority number and has the rights that the seniority number provides.

*One list means one MEC structure, one representational structure, one negotiating agenda.

*One list means one team. While there may be differences between interests of the senior and junior pilots, they both are in the same boat together and dependent on the success of their airline.

Surplus 1 is better read than I am and can probably add a hundered points to my list.

Thanks for asking
~~~^~~~

I agree with you to some extent fins. One list, one MEC, one structure, one agenda... yeah, I'd love it. It would make the pilots be way too powerful. That's exactly why that hasn't happened. Even if ALPA threw its collective weight behind merging WO airlines into one fold, it is ultimately management's choice to do so.

As it stands in the industry, you have replaced the mainline massively. You are hiring while mainline is furloughing. I applaud ASA for taking Delta furloughees amongst its fold without resigning. But at the same token, can you blame the mainline MEC for looking out for their furloughees - be it J4J or preferential hiring? In any case... the regional pilot group has to OK it in terms of voting for, or against it.

Would you be against your MEC trying to secure you a job while you were furloughed? I doubt you would...


Regards!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree with you to some extent fins. One list, one MEC, one structure, one agenda... yeah, I'd love it. It would make the pilots be way too powerful. That's exactly why that hasn't happened. Even if ALPA threw its collective weight behind merging WO airlines into one fold, it is ultimately management's choice to do so.

No, it is a matter of law. Management has to comply. Why hasn't it happened? ALPA has not filed a single carrier petition for any of the current regional airlines. There is a reason why ALPA has not even tried, the Delta MEC does not want it.

But at the same token, can you blame the mainline MEC for looking out for their furloughees

No, I do not blame the mainline MEC. They represent their pilots. My problem is with ALPA National, that lakes the will to lead the national union and reign in the predatory inclinations of the major MEC's. My MEC can not represent me to the operator of my airline because ALPA refuses to let them.

In any case... the regional pilot group has to OK it in terms of voting for, or against it.

Not true. CC Air voted against it, ALPA National refused to endorse their contract. Without at PWA the airline folded. Pilots at Mesa did not vote for the UAL J4J and pilots at the US Air wholly owneds were faced with their destruction if they did not ratify jets for jobs (reference CC Air and the litigation against ALPA by Allegheny pilots, that ALPA won on a motion to dismiss).

We are not taking mainline flying. The Delta MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages.

We tried to give you the flying, the airplanes and the votes at the 2000 Board of Directors meeting. Your MEC lied at the BOD meeting and kept us separate. Now why don't you follow up with them for the harm they have done to your career?

Can you blame us for fighting to secure representation? Can you blame us for fighting to avoid being replaced by a furloughed pilot from another airline?

As a Dash 8 pilot I'm pretty sure you know about the US Air situation. Are you saying that is moral? Is that what you think is fair?

 

[MAK]

But you assume that "Regionals" have to be bad jobs.

Only because the people that run the majors and their affiliates want to keep it that way.

Until regional jobs are looked upon as careers with all the compensation and benefits they deserve, they will continue to be filled by "stepping-stone" pilots willing to work for sub-par wages in exchange for "quality" turbine time in hopes that they will get picked up by a major some day. What a bargain!! It's virtually domestic cabotage.

As the regionals grow by filling routes for the shrinking majors, the pilots at the regionals can simply count on adding years to their term at that carrier. Only when the majors are forced to grow will job opportunities for all the "time-builders" out there materialize.

Unless, of course, SWA and JetBlue can make room for all of them.

-MAK