UAL Pilots take Skywest and Mesa jobs

[MAK]

What people need to realize is that this is not helping UAL pilots. It is not helping regional pilots. It is ruining the profession. This is driving pilot's pay down on both sides.
[Read RJ's]

EXACTLY!!!!!

The larger the regionals get, the smaller the majors get, the less good jobs there are for EVERYBODY.

-MAK

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I've got to disagree on a couple points:

1. If none of the majors had been allowed to shift flying to regionals then the playing field would of remained level and they would of had to complete against each other.

2. I believe in capitalism, but the entire reason unions exist is to control it. If pure capitalism was allowed to exist, then we'd all be making 25 cents/hr flying our 100 hours a month.

Fracflyer,
I'd like to address your comments.
1. If no LCC's had come into existence then your assertion would be correct. However with LCC's in the picture not shifting flying to regionals would have spelled economic disaster even sooner. The majors may have been able to compete effectively in the long-haul international arena but the bread and butter domestic flying would have simply evaporated to a great extent. You can't sell a SFO-OAK seat in quantity for $1,000 when you competition offers it for $200.

2. I disagree with your definition of a union's role in "controlling capitalism." Unions cannot control an industry when some of the players are non-union. ALPA does not control how much a 737 captain at Southwest or what an A-320 captain at JBLU makes. Similarly they cannot control the work rules at Southwest or JBLU. Although Southwest is unionized their management enjoys a relatively good relationship with labor and SWAPA has wisely avoided killing the goose laying the golden eggs and further they have not alienated customers with labor actions.

 

[fracflyer]

Fracflyer,
I'd like to address your comments.
1. If no LCC's had come into existence then your assertion would be correct. However with LCC's in the picture not shifting flying to regionals would have spelled economic disaster even sooner. The majors may have been able to compete effectively in the long-haul international arena but the bread and butter domestic flying would have simply evaporated to a great extent. You can't sell a SFO-OAK seat in quantity for $1,000 when you competition offers it for $200.

2. I disagree with your definition of a union's role in "controlling capitalism." Unions cannot control an industry when some of the players are non-union. ALPA does not control how much a 737 captain at Southwest or what an A-320 captain at JBLU makes. Similarly they cannot control the work rules at Southwest or JBLU. Although Southwest is unionized their management enjoys a relatively good relationship with labor and SWAPA has wisely avoided killing the goose laying the golden eggs and further they have not alienated customers with labor actions.

1. As far as pilots are concerned, I think it would of been better if the majors had been forced to deal directly with SWA and JetBlue. Instead of farming flying out to regional carriers, they would of had to create a division to compete with them. At least the jobs would have stayed at the major and expanded the chances of everyone.

2. I disagree. ALPA does significantly influence the wages at SWA and JBLU. If SWA or JBLU wants to have happy pilot groups then they have to offer competitive compensation packages to keep their employees happy. Pilots in every type of aviation benefit from the years of union advances at the majors. I don't think corporate pilots would make what they do unless employers had to remain competitive with Airline wages. The regionals, for reasons I mentioned above, are the most notable exception.
Good luck

 

[AAflyer]

The regionals are for the time being. I wonder how quickly this will change as they become places that one may spend a majority of their careers. If they get those gains then there goes the original benefit of farming out that flying to cheaper paid labor.

So the big question is what will happen?

AA

To smart to guess, knowing how fluid and dynamic this industry is

 

[fracflyer]

The question should be, how (or when) can we make it happen?

 

[~~~^~~~]

EXACTLY!!!!!

The larger the regionals get, the smaller the majors get, the less good jobs there are for EVERYBODY.

-MAK

But you assume that "Regionals" have to be bad jobs. When I was a kid, Delta was a "Regional." Pan Am, Eastern, UAL and TWA were the big boys. But a Delta pilot on a 67 seat DC-9 did not have a "bad" job.

What has changed over the years is ALPA's negotiating pattern. Back in the good old days the union "jacked up the house" by lifting every corner to elevate the profession.

Now a days ALPA has slipped into letting a couple of MEC's run the entire union for the exclusive benefit of their members and the detriment of everyone else. The favored MEC's ascended to the current level of DAL. Now the house of cards is collapsing because the foundation is not firm. Two of the corners of the house of ALPA got jacked so high, that the house is falling in.

Why are "Regional" jobs bad? One reason is that the Delta MEC has proposed pay cuts for "all Delta employees" to offset the mainline pay cuts - so an ASA pilot at industry average wages is being asked by his own union (without his MEC's participation) to take a pay cut to supplement the income of a pilot at Delta making 47% more than the most highly paid pilot on the planet and 60% more than the industry average for the equipment.

Regional jobs don't have to stink - it is simply a result of the representation ALPA has provided. The union forgot about "restoring the industry," the union forgot we are all in this together.

~~~^~~~

 

[enigma]

I've got to disagree on a couple points:

1. If none of the majors had been allowed to shift flying to regionals then the playing field would of remained level and they would of had to complete against each other.

In your perfect world, just who would be in charge of controlling where the majors shifted their flying? How would you have denied new entry to the market? How would you have made them compete against each other?

2. I believe in capitalism, but the entire reason unions exist is to control it. If pure capitalism was allowed to exist, then we'd all be making 25 cents/hr flying our 100 hours a month.

So it would seem that you believe in "situational capitalism". You believe in it, but just not for your industry. That sort of sounds like the phrase I hear about taxes. "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the guy behind the tree".

Your conclusion about the result of pure capitalism only shows your lack of understanding of economics. A purely competitive marketplace will always reach a level of equilibrium. In our present system, beginners see the upper level of earnings paid out to international777 Captains and they decide to work for nothing in order to get to that level. As long as unions play favorites and prop up the wages for a select few, it basically guarantees that those at the bottom will continue to sacrific in order to be in a position that might allow them to one day gain the top level job. The problem is this, the low wages accepted by the bottom only drag down the numbers of people working at the top wages. If the true effect of accepting slave wages at the bottom were unveiled, it is almost a given that the downward pressure would be stopped because top level wages no longer exist across the board. However, since the union manages to protect the favored few, all of the entry level aspirants continue to see the illusive pot of gold at rainbows end and continue to work for nothing in an attempt to reach said pot.

So, I study the socio-economics of the situation and conclude that the problem we face is not entry level wannabees, nor top wage earning pilots, nor the free market. Our problem is a union structure that continues to ignore true market forces. If ALPA were to take on the characteristics of a benevolent dictatorship, we could all do well. As long as ALPA tries to maintain Mr. Worths wages and supress Mr. Commuter Pilots wages, we will continue to see wages and working conditions slide.

If ALPA were to allow market realities to set wages, and concentrate on what they really do best, like: working conditions, safety, legal help, etc,; we would all be making a decent wage and working in an acceptable environment. As long as DAL, etc has 777 Captains making a quarter of a mil, the aspirants will continue to work for nothing and drag the rest of us down.

3. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is not because you have so many applicants. The majors had 10x the applicants when they were hiring. It's because people see the regionals a stepping stone. They're aprehensive to stick their necks out and stand up for better pay and working conditions, because they think the major job is right around the corner. (Of course the Comair guys do have brass ones with their 90 day strike) The key is organization and unity.

Exactly. But point three is in conflict with points one and two. Which perspective do your really believe in?

regards,
enigma

 

[surplus1]

Re: UAL pilots keep jobs

While Jets for Jobs is far from a good deal for anyone concerned it is at least a step in the right direction.

A step in the right direction? For whom? Looks to me like you're playing the very "definition game" that you outlined, i.e., what is just and fair is based on how it affects you (or your peers).

The idea of preferential hiring at the bottom of the list is not bad. The idea that a newly hiried pilot should make more than a previously hired pilot at the same airline, for the same job, is a bad precedent for everyone, no matter who "pays for it". So much for the "UAL deal".

The USAirways deal is a different animal. Plain and simple it is the theft of seniority. It aslo forces the abrogation of labor contracts. It discriminates against some members of a labor union in favor of other members of the same labor union, both in different and separate bargaining units. That makes it violate the law and the unions DFR obligation. To say that that is a "step in the right direction" is ludicrous.

This isn't a question of perspective, it's a question of ethics and of law. Apparently neither ALPA or the mainline pilot groups can grasp this. Neither can the regional groups that "agreed" (coerced or not) to accept this garbage.

The labor union that invented "jets for jobs" should be sued out of existence and enjoined from implementing it. Too bad the abused don't seem to have the moxy to stand up for themselves.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1,

What do you think about the USAir "Midatlantic" deal? I know it hasn't started yet, but they do have orders for the EMB-170's, and they should be on the way eventually. As I understand it, the Mid Atlantic deal provides 70 seaters for their own furloughs. I wish Delta would do that for theirs. That is the example I bring up to the Dalpa people and the management people in the ATL CPO. USAir actually might be trying to take care of their own. Sure, the pay rates have gone down tremendously, but I bet our furloughed pilots wouldn't mind the Comair contract, especially if their furlough might be an extended one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Freight Dog]

Surplus, do you think J4J is radically different from staple? I was under the impression that the majority of CMR/ASA pilots would go for the staple...

 

[fracflyer]

In your perfect world, just who would be in charge of controlling where the majors shifted their flying? How would you have denied new entry to the market? How would you have made them compete against each other?

1. In my perfect world scope language at the beginning would of prevented flying being farmed out to another pilot group. This situation has resulted in us (pilots) having to fight each other. There would of been no entry denied to the market, but all planes with United or Delta etc. on the tail should of been flown by pilots on the United, Delta, etc. senority list. United, AMR, and Delta should have to compete against each other. Not ACA pilots vs. UAL pilots and ASA/Comair pilots vs. Delta pilots. ALPA dropped this ball at the beginning and never saw the long term implications of the RJ.



So it would seem that you believe in "situational capitalism". You believe in it, but just not for your industry. That sort of sounds like the phrase I hear about taxes. "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the guy behind the tree".

Your conclusion about the result of pure capitalism only shows your lack of understanding of economics. A purely competitive marketplace will always reach a level of equilibrium. In our present system, beginners see the upper level of earnings paid out to international777 Captains and they decide to work for nothing in order to get to that level. As long as unions play favorites and prop up the wages for a select few, it basically guarantees that those at the bottom will continue to sacrific in order to be in a position that might allow them to one day gain the top level job. The problem is this, the low wages accepted by the bottom only drag down the numbers of people working at the top wages. If the true effect of accepting slave wages at the bottom were unveiled, it is almost a given that the downward pressure would be stopped because top level wages no longer exist across the board. However, since the union manages to protect the favored few, all of the entry level aspirants continue to see the illusive pot of gold at rainbows end and continue to work for nothing in an attempt to reach said pot.



So, I study the socio-economics of the situation and conclude that the problem we face is not entry level wannabees, nor top wage earning pilots, nor the free market. Our problem is a union structure that continues to ignore true market forces. If ALPA were to take on the characteristics of a benevolent dictatorship, we could all do well. As long as ALPA tries to maintain Mr. Worths wages and supress Mr. Commuter Pilots wages, we will continue to see wages and working conditions slide.

If ALPA were to allow market realities to set wages, and concentrate on what they really do best, like: working conditions, safety, legal help, etc,; we would all be making a decent wage and working in an acceptable environment. As long as DAL, etc has 777 Captains making a quarter of a mil, the aspirants will continue to work for nothing and drag the rest of us down.

Maybe you need to read a little history if you really think the free market is setting pilot wages in aviation. There are thousands of pilots that would do the same job a pilot at the majors do for 50% of the money. If supply and demand were allowed to run free, then a 777 captain would be lucky to make 50K and a F/O 30K. Why do you think the Big 3 had 10,000 applications on file during the hiring rush of the late 90's? Unions, in general, have raised the standard of all workers in America. Where do you think the 5 day work week came from? How about the 40 hours week? How about retirement plans and employer provided health insurance. I believe in the free market, but the uncontrolled market treats people like any other resource. One to be used up and thrown away. Read Upton Sinclar's "The Jungle" to see how workers were treated at the turn of century before unions gained power. Capitalism must be tempered with Unions and government regulations to protect workers.

The answer? I think ALPA needs a strategy that allows pilots to bargin on a single level. Not against each other. How are they going to do it? It might be too late.



Exactly. But point three is in conflict with points one and two. Which perspective do your really believe in?

regards,
enigma

Point three is fully in compliance with my other ones. It's an easy example of how the supply of pilots far outweighs the demand, however Unions have been able to keep wages high. If the market were allowed to set wages we'd all be making next to nothing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus, do you think J4J is radically different from staple? I was under the impression that the majority of CMR/ASA pilots would go for the staple...

*J4J allows pilots from another airline to take the most senior positions and schedules, denying the rightful seniority list holder of his, or her, seniority.

*J4J presumes that the regional pilots are second class citizens, to be at a second class airline that can be limited, controlled, or destroyed at the whim of the mainline MEC.

*J4J gives the regional pilots the promise of possible future expansion in exchange for giving up pay and position now. In every J4J, or flow through, type deal the regional pilot has never realized the reward for their sacrifice. In every case, the major pilots have taken what they want and years later the regional pilots are forgotten. The best examples of flow throughs are COEX and Eagle. The best example of J4J is the US Air Wholly Owneds. Flow throughs and J4J have destroyed many ALPA members' jobs.

*J4J allows pilots at another airline to control the careers, wages and working conditions of pilots at a separate carrier. The pilots at the regional have little say and no representation in matters effecting their employment.

*J4J puts pilots who have no interest in the success of the airline (after all, it isn't "their" airline) in control of the ship. An airline like CHQ may find that their rather incredible perofrmance numbers are not delivered when disgruntled US Air pilots are at the helm of Republic jets - particularly as former $200,000 a year pilots tire of $40 something thousand pay and difficult working conditions.

*A staple is one list. Everyone has a seniority number and has the rights that the seniority number provides.

*One list means one MEC structure, one representational structure, one negotiating agenda.

*One list means one team. While there may be differences between interests of the senior and junior pilots, they both are in the same boat together and dependent on the success of their airline.

Surplus 1 is better read than I am and can probably add a hundered points to my list.

Thanks for asking
~~~^~~~

 

[Freight Dog]

*J4J allows pilots from another airline to take the most senior positions and schedules, denying the rightful seniority list holder of his, or her, seniority.

So fins, are you being selective here? For example, you are flying your CRJ under DL code. MD88 crew that used to do that route is now in unemployment line or at Home Depot while you are flying your shiny new CRJ. Is it not their right to protect themselves? After all, you gain your seniority at their expense.

*J4J presumes that the regional pilots are second class citizens, to be at a second class airline that can be limited, controlled, or destroyed at the whim of the mainline MEC.

I'd say MEC is looking after its members' interests since YOU are taking the flying away from them because YOU are cheap labor. Secondly, you are STILL outnumbered in ALPA national by mainline... democracy rules. I highly doubt that mainline MEC's wake up in the morning thinking of ways to screw the "second-class" regional guys. Second-class.... please!!!

*J4J gives the regional pilots the promise of possible future expansion in exchange for giving up pay and position now. In every J4J, or flow through, type deal the regional pilot has never realized the reward for their sacrifice. In every case, the major pilots have taken what they want and years later the regional pilots are forgotten. The best examples of flow throughs are COEX and Eagle. The best example of J4J is the US Air Wholly Owneds. Flow throughs and J4J have destroyed many ALPA members' jobs.

The difference between those flowthrough setups and the J4J as I understand it is that if you want to fly A330 at USAir, you have to start in a Dash 8 first. Correct me if I'm wrong. Whereas, in any of those above, you can be bypassed. See, flowthrough is a double-edge sword. It's great for you when the mainline is hiring, but sucks for you when they're furloughing. That's the chance you take.

*J4J allows pilots at another airline to control the careers, wages and working conditions of pilots at a separate carrier. The pilots at the regional have little say and no representation in matters effecting their employment.

How's that? Can Capt. Burguey just arbitrarily say hey.. we're putting our 1310 furloughees at Comair? Naww... the pilots had to vote to allow J4J. You can cry me a river about tough choices, but ultimately, they voted for it...

*J4J puts pilots who have no interest in the success of the airline (after all, it isn't "their" airline) in control of the ship. An airline like CHQ may find that their rather incredible perofrmance numbers are not delivered when disgruntled US Air pilots are at the helm of Republic jets - particularly as former $200,000 a year pilots tire of $40 something thousand pay and difficult working conditions.

Hasnt happened yet...

*A staple is one list. Everyone has a seniority number and has the rights that the seniority number provides.

*One list means one MEC structure, one representational structure, one negotiating agenda.

*One list means one team. While there may be differences between interests of the senior and junior pilots, they both are in the same boat together and dependent on the success of their airline.

Surplus 1 is better read than I am and can probably add a hundered points to my list.

Thanks for asking
~~~^~~~

I agree with you to some extent fins. One list, one MEC, one structure, one agenda... yeah, I'd love it. It would make the pilots be way too powerful. That's exactly why that hasn't happened. Even if ALPA threw its collective weight behind merging WO airlines into one fold, it is ultimately management's choice to do so.

As it stands in the industry, you have replaced the mainline massively. You are hiring while mainline is furloughing. I applaud ASA for taking Delta furloughees amongst its fold without resigning. But at the same token, can you blame the mainline MEC for looking out for their furloughees - be it J4J or preferential hiring? In any case... the regional pilot group has to OK it in terms of voting for, or against it.

Would you be against your MEC trying to secure you a job while you were furloughed? I doubt you would...


Regards!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree with you to some extent fins. One list, one MEC, one structure, one agenda... yeah, I'd love it. It would make the pilots be way too powerful. That's exactly why that hasn't happened. Even if ALPA threw its collective weight behind merging WO airlines into one fold, it is ultimately management's choice to do so.

No, it is a matter of law. Management has to comply. Why hasn't it happened? ALPA has not filed a single carrier petition for any of the current regional airlines. There is a reason why ALPA has not even tried, the Delta MEC does not want it.

But at the same token, can you blame the mainline MEC for looking out for their furloughees

No, I do not blame the mainline MEC. They represent their pilots. My problem is with ALPA National, that lakes the will to lead the national union and reign in the predatory inclinations of the major MEC's. My MEC can not represent me to the operator of my airline because ALPA refuses to let them.

In any case... the regional pilot group has to OK it in terms of voting for, or against it.

Not true. CC Air voted against it, ALPA National refused to endorse their contract. Without at PWA the airline folded. Pilots at Mesa did not vote for the UAL J4J and pilots at the US Air wholly owneds were faced with their destruction if they did not ratify jets for jobs (reference CC Air and the litigation against ALPA by Allegheny pilots, that ALPA won on a motion to dismiss).

We are not taking mainline flying. The Delta MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages.

We tried to give you the flying, the airplanes and the votes at the 2000 Board of Directors meeting. Your MEC lied at the BOD meeting and kept us separate. Now why don't you follow up with them for the harm they have done to your career?

Can you blame us for fighting to secure representation? Can you blame us for fighting to avoid being replaced by a furloughed pilot from another airline?

As a Dash 8 pilot I'm pretty sure you know about the US Air situation. Are you saying that is moral? Is that what you think is fair?

 

[MAK]

But you assume that "Regionals" have to be bad jobs.

Only because the people that run the majors and their affiliates want to keep it that way.

Until regional jobs are looked upon as careers with all the compensation and benefits they deserve, they will continue to be filled by "stepping-stone" pilots willing to work for sub-par wages in exchange for "quality" turbine time in hopes that they will get picked up by a major some day. What a bargain!! It's virtually domestic cabotage.

As the regionals grow by filling routes for the shrinking majors, the pilots at the regionals can simply count on adding years to their term at that carrier. Only when the majors are forced to grow will job opportunities for all the "time-builders" out there materialize.

Unless, of course, SWA and JetBlue can make room for all of them.

-MAK

 

[SkyWstman]

Things are changing fast in this industry. Some one will always get paid more than you. You may be on top or on bottom when it is all said and done. At the end of your life the only thing that will matter is if you knew Jesus.

 

[Freight Dog]

No, it is a matter of law. Management has to comply. Why hasn't it happened? ALPA has not filed a single carrier petition for any of the current regional airlines. There is a reason why ALPA has not even tried, the Delta MEC does not want it.

If it was a matter of law, it would have been done. Do tell me... do you have anything in your contract that requires the company to merge you into Delta that was overlooked?


No, I do not blame the mainline MEC. They represent their pilots. My problem is with ALPA National, that lakes the will to lead the national union and reign in the predatory inclinations of the major MEC's. My MEC can not represent me to the operator of my airline because ALPA refuses to let them.

You know, it's hard to get sympathy from other pilot groups when your airline is expanding while the mainline is shrinking. Yet, the mainline *STILL* holds the cards due to sheer numbers. Sorry bud, but mainline still outnumbers you by a long shot.


Not true. CC Air voted against it, ALPA National refused to endorse their contract. Without at PWA the airline folded. Pilots at Mesa did not vote for the UAL J4J and pilots at the US Air wholly owneds were faced with their destruction if they did not ratify jets for jobs (reference CC Air and the litigation against ALPA by Allegheny pilots, that ALPA won on a motion to dismiss).

Yeah, that's too bad.. but you know... sometimes the pilots have to stand up for what they believe is right. Maybe they're not ready to sacrifice for what they "believe" is right. But just like Mesa and any other carrier that votes in a bad deal, they lose their right to complain about it - they voted for it.

With all due respect to Mesa pilots, but they're like JO's battered wife. They'll do whatever JO tells them to. They proved it in their last contract.

JO: SIGN HERE, or I'm gonna b*tch slap you.
MESA Pilots: OK, please don't hurt me anymore.
JO: Now, I'm gonna do this.. and you will like it or I'll slap you into next week.
MESA Pilots: OK, do it.. just don't hurt me.

No sympathy for people like that.

We are not taking mainline flying. The Delta MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages.

Riiiiiiiggghhhht!!!! Come on fins... so by the same token... if you "raise the bar" with your new ASA contract, if Mesa joins the DCI ranks and starts flying out of ATL and DFW, would you say that ASA MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages?

We tried to give you the flying, the airplanes and the votes at the 2000 Board of Directors meeting. Your MEC lied at the BOD meeting and kept us separate. Now why don't you follow up with them for the harm they have done to your career?

I don't work for Delta. Not my MEC. But like I told you before, I agree with you that there should be one list, one level of representation, truly one voice. But once again... what is there to force the company to staple you to the bottom of Delta list?

Can you blame us for fighting to secure representation? Can you blame us for fighting to avoid being replaced by a furloughed pilot from another airline?

As a Dash 8 pilot I'm pretty sure you know about the US Air situation. Are you saying that is moral? Is that what you think is fair?

Actually, when I flew a Dash 8, I didn't fly for USAir WO's. But personally, I do think it's fair that half of new jets should be staffed by furloughed mainline pilots. It still creates a net growth for the regional folks. One thing I like about USAir J4J deal is that, at least on paper for now, one has to start in a Dash 8 there in order to get to fly A330 later on.

It's interesting to watch you blame other pilot groups, but not the morally-bankrupt management.

Finally, you pro-RJDC folks remind me of high school freshmen girls who claim their lives are ruined by their parents.

Let's face it... 1310 guys/gals at Delta on the street since 9/11. Between you and CMR, how many have you hired? How many upgrades has that resulted in? How many new bid lines? Sorry, but until you show me the actual harm that ALPA has caused you by failing to properly represent you, I can't help but laugh and compare you people to these rebellious teenage girls.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Frieght Dog:

Unless you quote correctly there is no easy way to debate with you.

None the less, just off the top of my head there are several points you are incorrect on.

(1) ASA is not growing, we are shrinking because we have no scope and ALPA will not allow us to negotiate with the party that controls scope (therefore we could not sell it, we don't have it and can't get it). It is looking like I will loose my 4th stripe this fall due to displacements at ASA.

(2) US Labor law prohibits a company from operating an alter ego subsidiary for the purpose of undermining collective bargaining efforts. This is how the "Single Carrier Petitions" are brought before the NLRB. I posted some on the law, but don't have my research handy. You can probably find it archived on this board if you are genuinely interested.

(3) US Air furloughees do not get half the airplanes, they get half the pilot slots. In other words, they get the left seat unless they can not qualify. This has not been a problem at US Air, but American and United hired some very low time pilots who don't have the time to hold an ATP. One Harrier pilot I know comes to mind. He got hired at AA with less than 700 TT. He is now furloughed, but can not qual for the left seat of an RJ at Eagle. Besides, how many 1,500 hour Captains should be flying around?

(4) J4J is now at almost every airline except for ASA and Comair. For our defense of this predatory theft of our most senior positions I thank the RJDC.

ALPA National is not my parent. There is no correlation. ALPA National is our exclusive bargaining agent. Unfortunately there are no checks and balances on the unrestrained power of democracy and the parties in power have abused the democracy by making it very undemocratic. Look at the Executive Vice President structure of the union. EVP's are awarded on the amount of dues and the type of equipment in your fleet - so it isn't one pilot, one vote.

Even so, DeToqueville warned that one of the perils of democracy was that the majority would use the democracy to take from the pockets of the minority. That is eactly what is happening when the Delta MEC tries to negotiate cuts for all employees, including the pilots they do not represent.

My MEC is not even allowed in the negotiations over my wages and working conditions and I do not have the opportunity to vote on contracts with the Delta pilots that control my career. In effect my union representation has been hijacked. The RJDC will hopefully get the ship back under control and restore our union.

 

[Freight Dog]

Frieght Dog:

Unless you quote correctly there is no easy way to debate with you.

None the less, just off the top of my head there are several points you are incorrect on.

(1) ASA is not growing, we are shrinking because we have no scope and ALPA will not allow us to negotiate with the party that controls scope (therefore we could not sell it, we don't have it and can't get it). It is looking like I will loose my 4th stripe this fall due to displacements at ASA.

You haven't lost your 4th stripe yet, have you? In case you do lose it, and I hope you don't.. but should you lose it, watch how soon you get it back when you sign a new contract. You are being played like a fiddle by the company... and you don't even see it. No wonder you can't get scope. Yet, you will quickly blame ALPA for you losing your stripe.


(2) US Labor law prohibits a company from operating an alter ego subsidiary for the purpose of undermining collective bargaining efforts. This is how the "Single Carrier Petitions" are brought before the NLRB. I posted some on the law, but don't have my research handy. You can probably find it archived on this board if you are genuinely interested.

So why aren't you merged with Comair then? ALPA's fault?

(3) US Air furloughees do not get half the airplanes, they get half the pilot slots. In other words, they get the left seat unless they can not qualify. This has not been a problem at US Air, but American and United hired some very low time pilots who don't have the time to hold an ATP. One Harrier pilot I know comes to mind. He got hired at AA with less than 700 TT. He is now furloughed, but can not qual for the left seat of an RJ at Eagle. Besides, how many 1,500 hour Captains should be flying around?

There really is no right answer. Mainline can argue that it's their old routes flown under their code but for peanuts, and in interests of their job security, they want to fly those routes even if it's for peanut wages. Regional guys say that it's abrogation of seniority with these mainline guys getting captain slots on those routes and it's slowing down their careers. Who's right and who's not? Depends on whose side of the fence were you on. I'm willing to bet that if you were on the mainline side of the fence, you'd be singing a different tune. Also, don't forget that at least on paper, if USAirways survives, those guys flying Dash 8's in USAir colors don't have to interview again if/when USAirways needs pilots again. But then again... everyone wants instant gratification.


(4) J4J is now at almost every airline except for ASA and Comair. For our defense of this predatory theft of our most senior positions I thank the RJDC.

Once again, read above... it's predatory to you because you don't gain as much as you would without those furloughees. You'd rather have them thrown out on their asses while you fly your RJ under their code, in their livery, on the route they flew just a month before. Oh yeah... and if they want to fly those routes in an RJ for say Comair, they're told to pound sand if they don't resign from Delta. Class act.

Also, it is CMR/ASA pilots suing ALPA for predatory scope allegedly limiting their careers. How many have both hired since Delta started with their furloughs?

ALPA National is not my parent. There is no correlation. ALPA National is our exclusive bargaining agent. Unfortunately there are no checks and balances on the unrestrained power of democracy and the parties in power have abused the democracy by making it very undemocratic. Look at the Executive Vice President structure of the union. EVP's are awarded on the amount of dues and the type of equipment in your fleet - so it isn't one pilot, one vote.

It may not be.. but regardless, your membership doesn't generate enough dues due to the number of members, as well as the amount on your paycheck. Gives you something to strive towards, doesn't it?


Even so, DeToqueville warned that one of the perils of democracy was that the majority would use the democracy to take from the pockets of the minority. That is eactly what is happening when the Delta MEC tries to negotiate cuts for all employees, including the pilots they do not represent.

My MEC is not even allowed in the negotiations over my wages and working conditions and I do not have the opportunity to vote on contracts with the Delta pilots that control my career. In effect my union representation has been hijacked. The RJDC will hopefully get the ship back under control and restore our union.

Tell me something fins... why should your MEC be around Delta pilot negotiations? Didn't Delta pilots say that if paycuts are in order, then everyone should take pay cuts, including you guys? Making their paycuts be conditional upon other unions and nonunionized workers taking paycuts is a far cry from them negotiating your paycuts without your MEC even being around...
Once again... a 14 year old teenybopper with a tantrum saying her mom ruined her life because she wouldn't let her go partying on Friday night.

Just for the records though, I'm against regionals taking pay cuts because regional pay, work rules, retirement etc. generally leave much to be desired when compared to the mainline. Creating more disparity between the two further takes away from the mainline since you become an even cheaper labor. Making regionals being looked on as career places instead of stepping stones is one way to alleviate the current problem. That's another discussion altogother...

Once again fins... I challenge you to give me a solution to this problem. I asked you this a few months ago, and never got an answer. Address your plight as you see it, address mainline plight to keep their jobs, address the thousands of furloughees from mainline, come up with a REALISTIC solution, not rhetoric, address scope and how it should work (not the "good scope includes, bad scope excludes" crapola) - exactly who would you scope out? What about those airlines that are not wholly-owned like yourself like say - ACA, AWAC, Mesa, TSA. Note I only mentioned some ALPA-represented non-wholly owned airlines.
Also, tell me how is RJDC going to protect you against Mesa offering to fly your RJ's for a fraction of your cost?

I'll be waiting..

Maybe you can solve this for everyone...


Best regards!

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

What has changed over the years is ALPA's negotiating pattern. Back in the good old days the union "jacked up the house" by lifting every corner to elevate the profession.

Now a days ALPA has slipped into letting a couple of MEC's run the entire union for the exclusive benefit of their members and the detriment of everyone else. The favored MEC's ascended to the current level of DAL. Now the house of cards is collapsing because the foundation is not firm. Two of the corners of the house of ALPA got jacked so high, that the house is falling in.

Why are "Regional" jobs bad? One reason is that the Delta MEC has proposed pay cuts for "all Delta employees" to offset the mainline pay cuts - so an ASA pilot at industry average wages is being asked by his own union (without his MEC's participation) to take a pay cut to supplement the income of a pilot at Delta making 47% more than the most highly paid pilot on the planet and 60% more than the industry average for the equipment.

Regional jobs don't have to stink - it is simply a result of the representation ALPA has provided. The union forgot about "restoring the industry," the union forgot we are all in this together.

~~~^~~~

I'll tell you what, you guys strike until you achieve mainline parity and work rules. That is all you have to do. Comair did not do this. They quit early. They knew that mainline costs would bury them, and it will bury you.
You forget that the primary reason of your job's creation IS lower pay and benefits. Look it up.

The memo I read from the Delta MEC chairman mentioned concession parity with contract labor/ground support, renegotiated aircraft leases, fuel contracts, etc. Even if they required all other employees to take the pay cuts, it would have been because of the directionof the membership. Just about every Delta pilot wrongly believes that CMW and ASA pilots should accept cuts as well. Besides, I think the Delta MEC said it because they knew this would be a drop dead issue for the company.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

From squiggles>

(1) ASA is not growing, we are shrinking because we have no scope and ALPA will not allow us to negotiate with the party that controls scope (therefore we could not sell it, we don't have it and can't get it). It is looking like I will loose my 4th stripe this fall due to displacements at ASA.

Untrue. You just have to look over at Comair. No scope either and growing by leaps and bounds.

(2) US Labor law prohibits a company from operating an alter ego subsidiary for the purpose of undermining collective bargaining efforts. This is how the "Single Carrier Petitions" are brought before the NLRB. I posted some on the law, but don't have my research handy. You can probably find it archived on this board if you are genuinely interested.

True, but not in your context. This law applies to section 6 negotiations, not every day operations. If it were true, it would be done. If it were true, why have CMR and ASA not filed a single carrier petition?

(3) US Air furloughees do not get half the airplanes, they get half the pilot slots. In other words, they get the left seat unless they can not qualify. This has not been a problem at US Air, but American and United hired some very low time pilots who don't have the time to hold an ATP. One Harrier pilot I know comes to mind. He got hired at AA with less than 700 TT. He is now furloughed, but can not qual for the left seat of an RJ at Eagle. Besides, how many 1,500 hour Captains should be flying around?

They should get half the seats, IMO, because it is their scope which is at play. Any other view is just plain selfish and greedy. This goes for the other carriers J4J as well. If I were in a J4J situation, I would do it only as a way to keep current while I find a different job. Not having time enough to hold an ATP? How many can this possibly apply to? 1 or 2 at each carrier? Even 10 at each carrier, who cares? Pay protect them and move on. How many have CMR and ASA hired in the past who cannot hold an ATP?

My MEC is not even allowed in the negotiations over my wages and working conditions and I do not have the opportunity to vote on contracts with the Delta pilots that control my career. In effect my union representation has been hijacked. The RJDC will hopefully get the ship back under control and restore our union.

You'd better start the reacll if you MEC is not negotiating for your wages and working conditions. I guess CMRs contract is also a farse as well, since they can't either. You have all the power to negotiate anything you want to except which flying the Delta pilots must do. That is the reason for our existence in the first place, IMO. Flying which the mainline pilots did not "win" in that particular contract year.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, do you think J4J is radically different from staple?

In a word YES, I do. J4J is a labor union stealing from its less favorved members to give to its more favored members. It's wrotten to the core and it violates the union's DFR.

You've said a lot about the victims "voting for it". A "vote" is something you cast voluntarily and implies consent. I submit that there are no victims of rape who feel they consented (voted for it) while the rapist was holding a gun to their head. A contract entered into as a consequence of duress or coercion is not a valid contract. Sorry, but your perspective is flawed and your logic is warped.

A "staple" or any other form of seniority integration is the result of an agreement (or arbitration award) between two pilot groups brought together as the result of a merger of the corporate entities. Yes, that's radically different from J4J.

I was under the impression that the majority of CMR/ASA pilots would go for the staple...

I don't mean to be "personal" but based on your series of posts, you are obviously under a great many impressions, most of them without substance.

Would it be possible to merge the Comair and Delta lists using a staple? Yes, it would be. The devil is in the details. Any "staple" would have to include a great many provisos that protect the interests of both parties. Without those explicit and agreed details, a "pure staple" between Delta/Comair would simply result in the furlough of 1310 Comair pilots; approximately 2/3 of the seniority list and the displacement of the remainder. If you have the impression that Comair pilots "would go for" that, I say again, your impressions are without substance.

Those pilots at Comair who drool at the prospect of a "Delta number" are the very ones that would be unemployed tomorrow, and for the foreseable future, if a staple were implemented today. The rest of us (old farts like me and a great number of my juniors) have no interest in a number at the bottom of the Delta list. Before you say it, we also have no interest in DOH integrations which would decidely harm the Delta pilots. We do have an interest in ending the dispute and we would like to see that happen. Candidly, if it can be done without a merger of lists, that would probably be best for all concerned.

It is not right for them to try to take from us. It would be equally wrong for us to try to take from them. There are better ways to end the conflict.

The real problem we have is that many (too many) people employed by "major airlines" appear to believe that they have been endowed with the unalienable right, to step on fellow pilots employed at regional carriers. I and others are here to tell them and you, that we do not share their idea and do not recognize their perceived "rights".

Whatever the method they choose in the attempt to take from us, be it predatory scope, Jets for Jobs, manipulation of the union or any other ruse, is going to be resisted by all available and legal means. It's that simple.

You don't have to agree with any of it, but you do have to understand that's the way it is. It's not pretty, it's not nice, it's not desirable. It's a civil war. War is never pleasant and each of the protagonists believes that his is the most holy grail.

Sooner or later (probably the latter) a victor will emerge. At that point "to the victor go the spoils". That won't make it right, but that's how life is. Deja vue.

PS: The idea that the ALPA is a "democracy" is a farce. ALPA is an oligarchy.

 

[aroundtheblock]

Alot of you are missing a couple main points.

1. United is attempting to take care of their own as much as they financially can, trying to relieve as much of the burden on those families as possible. They should be commended not trashed.

2. Skywest and Mesa, if the deal is like US Airways, are only getting these planes because the J4J commuters guarenteed furloughed pilot employment. To imply they are taking away jobs if wrong.

3. If Mesa and Skywest are growing, due to the mainline shrinking, then they should be lucky to get the quality and experience of a furloughed pilot, to help out alot of these new upgrades. I'm furloughed US Airways, pushing 11,000 hours, and feel I could help one of these commuters during expansion times. I personally met a Mesa copilot in PHL who was hired and on the line at 275 hours total time. Since he would be senior to me and thus upgrade before me, who do you think he'd like as his copilot.... an experienced pilot, grateful to be there instead of on the street like so many others, or another 275 hour copilot.

4. Don't lose sight of what you got into this profession for in the 1st place. Though many of us love what we do, I doubt many of us would have taken the Mesa route if we thought that is where our careers would top out. Your goal for most of you should not be worrying about if this furloughed guy is having his salary suplimented but rather to make contacts and relationships with these pilots. They are the future of United or US Airways (if there is a future there). Instead of being a hinderance for a year, they could be you ticket out of the commuters for years to come.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
Scope this, grow this, mainline shrinking, jobs being stolen, lots of crap to keep us at each others throats.
Wake up and smell the bottom of your shoe we have all stepped in it.
Mainline pilots for not supporting the regional pilots in their quest for a decent paycheck and working conditions, and the regional pilots willing to sell themselves cheaply for some quality 121 time.
Mainline guys have skrewed the pooch and now can look foreward to flying the right seat at a regional for 1/3rd the pay and bennies, Regional pilots are standing in line for sloppy seconds and no hope of getting to the big game, ever.

I will make it simple, the enemy is managment, the good guys wear stripes on their shoulders. There it is simple, litmus test? Has managment ever came to your(any) pilot group and said you guys are doing a great job, here is a truckload of spare cash for you?
Nope, didn't think so, put the crosshairs where they belong, not on the guy sitting in the foxhole next to you. Someone has to watch your 6 while you sleep.
While we fight, they(MGMT) laughs and issue themselves stock and fat bonuses.
WAKE UP!
PBR

 

[PBRstreetgang]

P.S.
Econ 101, mgmt will not rest until left seat 777 guy and rt seat 1900 guys wages are the same. do you think they will go up or down?
PBR

 

[~~~^~~~]

Tell me something fins... why should your MEC be around Delta pilot negotiations?

We should not be involved in all negotiations, but we do have the right to participate in negotiations involving our pay and working conditions. ALPA National calls it a "system scope solution." Unfortunately those at National are unwilling to bring the Delta MEC to the table. The Delta MEC has refused to participate unless they are guaranteed everything they want, up front. (That is not negotiation)

Once again fins... I challenge you to give me a solution to this problem. I asked you this a few months ago, and never got an answer. Address your plight as you see it, address mainline plight to keep their jobs, address the thousands of furloughees from mainline, come up with a REALISTIC solution. Also, tell me how is RJDC going to protect you against Mesa offering to fly your RJ's for a fraction of your cost?

I'll be waiting..

Maybe you can solve this for everyone...

Best regards!

An easy question, answered many times before.

ALPA has a long history of resolving merger battles. Lessons learned have been codified in the Constitution and Bylaws of our union. This document provides for a merger when airlines are operationally integrated. A petition for an implementation date was properly filed by the ASA MEC during the 2000 Board of Director's meeting. I continue to believe the answer to the problem is found in the Constitution and Bylaws of the union, either through merger, or by applying the representational rights afforded the ASA and Comair pilots under US labor law.

So plan A is a merger (in my book, not the RJDC's).

Plan B would be dilligent representation of ASA and Comair pilots.
The Union's Constitution holds that members should not be able to use the union to harm other members. In effect, Delta pilots should not be able to harm me while my MEC is not present to defend my interests. By shutting out my representatives, the union had failed in its duty of fair representation. (A lousy version of plan B is in place at CO, they have one MEC with COEX but no common seniority list.)

This brings us to plan C. If the union will not obey its rules and the law of the land and they refuse to negotiate, then you have no choice but to go to Court to get the union to obey the rules. Plan C is difficult and expensive, but so far, it is working. The Court has ruled that it will hear the case, discovery is going forward, then we will prepare for trial. Hopefully ALPA, already knowing full well where this is going, will tire of defending an lawsuit where they are arguing against collective bargaining (strange arguement for a union, eh?) and force a solution. Either way the outcome is the same - we will get to represent our pilots in matters involving their pay and working conditions.

End of story

Moral of story - If Delta wants effective scope and we want any scope we have to work together. Despite our different interests the purpose of a union is to bring employees together to bargain collectively with their employer.

P.S.

It would be preferable for the Delta MEC if they were to work with ALPA to settle the litigation before the next aircraft order, if the airplane is anywhere around 100 seats. Remember the lawsuit was filed when scope was set at 105 seats. If the airline orders an aircraft, even CRJ700's, the RJDC is in a position to seek injunctive relief that would basically put the Court in charge of where the airplanes go. (Now I could be way, way, off in my yeoman's read of the law, but I do know for sure that it was C2K scope that triggered the lawsuit.) ALPA would be much better off negotiating fairly rather than leaving it to the Court because candidly, the facts of the case are clearly in the ASA / Comair pilots' favor. ALPA kept breaking the rules and now has a nasty history of conduct that can not be hidden. We are used to ALPA's political actions, but the Court is not. A jury would be surprised by ALPA shenannigans and your typical jurist does not have much sympathy for "fat cat" airline pilots to begin with.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

It would be preferable for the Delta MEC if they were to work with ALPA to settle the litigation before the next aircraft order, if the airplane is anywhere around 100 seats. Remember the lawsuit was filed when scope was set at 105 seats. If the airline orders an aircraft, even CRJ700's, the RJDC is in a position to seek injunctive relief that would basically put the Court in charge of where the airplanes go. (Now I could be way, way, off in my yeoman's read of the law, but I do know for sure that it was C2K scope that triggered the lawsuit.) ALPA would be much better off negotiating fairly rather than leaving it to the Court because candidly, the facts of the case are clearly in the ASA / Comair pilots' favor. ALPA kept breaking the rules and now has a nasty history of conduct that can not be hidden. We are used to ALPA's political actions, but the Court is not. A jury would be surprised by ALPA shenannigans and your typical jurist does not have much sympathy for "fat cat" airline pilots to begin with.

This sounds like something the RJDC would put out, and I suppose you got it there. How else are they going to get contributions unless they "promise"something in return. THe burden of proof is enormous here, and IMO the RJDC doesn't have it. ALPA has been negotiating the same way for years. Their liability is no different on a wholy owned than a non-wholly owned.

It looks to me as if your 105 seat limit applied to a specific aircraft --not a general 105 seater, and 105 wasn't even in the language.

A jury can say whatever they want, but they cannot tell Delta where to operate a "105 seater". But keep dreaming, and keep sending those checks. And keep trying to ruin the industry for those of us who are moving up legitimately.

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[~~~^~~~]

This sounds like something the RJDC would put out, and I suppose you got it there. How else are they going to get contributions unless they "promise"something in return.

No the RJDC did not put that out. You could look on their web site, beause they publish their opinions and the factual basis relied on.

That is "my read" based on the differences between scope before and after C2K. Yes, the scope limit was over 100 seats and the aircraft was the BAE146.

The RJDC effort is the right thing to do, collectively, as a union. Look at what has happened to airlines like Allegehny and CC Air, who trusted ALPA and the mainline pilots to do what was best for them.

Candidly, you are a frustrated mainline pilot, not a "concerned regional pilot." Please explain what the difference is. The only difference I see has to do with ALPA politics. Why don't you start another thread to explain why regional pilots do not deserve union representation.

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

No the RJDC did not put that out. You could look on their web site, beause they publish their opinions and the factual basis relied on.

That is "my read" based on the differences between scope before and after C2K. Yes, the scope limit was over 100 seats and the aircraft was the BAE146.

The RJDC effort is the right thing to do, collectively, as a union. Look at what has happened to airlines like Allegehny and CC Air, who trusted ALPA and the mainline pilots to do what was best for them.

Candidly, you are a frustrated mainline pilot, not a "concerned regional pilot." Please explain what the difference is. The only difference I see has to do with ALPA politics. Why don't you start another thread to explain why regional pilots do not deserve union representation.

Your frustration is showing. You took a stab in the dark, and somebody called you on it. I looked up the language in Delta's contract back in 96. The limit was 70 seats. An exception was made for a type specific plane, which won't likely be flown on the Delta property again. To even use this argument shows what the RJDC types are really after. They want the bigger planes. All this time they have been saying they want fair representation, which would mean unlimited 70 seaters, but this guy just expanded his thoughts to actually larger airplanes. With this mentality running around out there, I might just start that thread. You don't deserve union representation by ALPA, with that mentality. You want more than your fair share, 70 seats in this case. That assumes your complaint is even valid, a big assumption.

I always find it funny when people edit their posts as soon as they are posted. I notice you neglected to comment on the fact, since you're so proper about facts, that no jury can tell Delta where to place a 100 seater. Delta has publically said it will be at mainline. Do you thiunk the Delta pilkots might have a lawsuit if they go anywhere else?

--a concerned regional pilot

 

[surplus1]

THe burden of proof is enormous here, and IMO the RJDC doesn't have it.

The burden of proof in DFR litigation is indeed high. IMO the plaintiffs do have it this time. Well have to see, won't we?

ALPA has been negotiating the same way for years.

Please keep in mind that the fact that one has been violating the law for a long time, does not equate to the right to do so. The longevity of the alleged malfeasance simply provides the plaintiff with greater opportunity to prove it. Additionally, repeated violations of the statue do not establish precedent that permits those violations to continue.

Their liability is no different on a wholy owned than a non-wholly owned.

That's an interesting point. Even the judge that refused to grant ALPA its motion to dismiss the case, raised that point. If ALPA doesn't win, a lot of apple carts will be overturned. Your point is hardly favorable to the ALPA.

A jury can say whatever they want, but they cannot tell Delta where to operate a "105 seater".

You are correct. Please note however that the plaintiffs have not asked a judge or a jury to tell Delta where it may operate any aircraft or for that matter, anything else. The courts are being asked to prevent ALPA from violating its duty of fair representation. ALPA, not Delta.