UAL Pilots take Skywest and Mesa jobs

[Carl_Everett]

That's pretty imaginative if you really think that's true. We’re talking about a small amount of money that only lasts until the pilot reaches second year pay anyway. Instead of blaming everyone else for your pay rates, maybe you should do something about it.

Where did I blame anyone for payrates? I was making a point about the current situation. Pilots from one company took paycuts to help the bottom line of UAL. UAL then will take a portion of that cost savings, and instead of helping their own bottom line, will send that money to a company were it may or may not be used in the UAL route system.

I bet that during the concessionary road shows the selling point about concessions did not include an hour on how a part of these pay cuts would be funding UAL furloughee pay checks. Do you really think any of those T/A's would have passed if they did?

 

[fracflyer]

Don't blame the UAL pilots for you not having the balls to vote no. Since you're so concerned with where the money is coming from, then assume it's from the 30-50% paycuts the pilots at UAL took. In fact, the cost of the program will probably be so small that UAL could switch from double-ply toilet paper to single-ply to pay for it.

 

[Carl_Everett]

Don't blame the UAL pilots for you not having the balls to vote no. Since you're so concerned with where the money is coming from, then assume it's from the 30-50% paycuts the pilots at UAL took. In fact, the cost of the program will probably be so small that UAL could switch from double-ply toilet paper to single-ply to pay for it.

If the unions at those carriers knew about what was going to happen, those T/A's would have never even been put to a vote.

It is foolish for you to be backing this logic. Don't you think that 30-50% from UAL pilots should be going to the bottom line of UAL? Wouldn't it make more sense to make UAL stronger, allow for UAL growth, and recalls back to UAL? The money saved on two-ply toilet paper could be going into UAL's pilot pension fund. If I flew for UAL I would be outraged. Do you think the UAL furloughees will have the balls to refuse the job offer? If they go to one of these carriers, they will be just as guilty as those who voted YES for pay cuts/substandard contracts.

 

[JJJ]

I don't think that UAL having to repay training contracts will be an issue. Which of the UA regionals have training contracts, and how long are they for?

In the unlikely situation where UAL recalled all of it's pilots before their training contracts were up, it would mean that UAL would be making money, and getting their pilots back to fly mainline A/C would outweigh the cost of repaying a training contract.

But what are the chances of a full recall at UAL in the next 2 years?

 

[fracflyer]

If the unions at those carriers knew about what was going to happen, those T/A's would have never even been put to a vote.

It is foolish for you to be backing this logic. Don't you think that 30-50% from UAL pilots should be going to the bottom line of UAL? Wouldn't it make more sense to make UAL stronger, allow for UAL growth, and recalls back to UAL? The money saved on two-ply toilet paper could be going into UAL's pilot pension fund. If I flew for UAL I would be outraged. Do you think the UAL furloughees will have the balls to refuse the job offer? If they go to one of these carriers, they will be just as guilty as those who voted YES for pay cuts/substandard contracts.

I believe you're using the logic, "Someone is getting something I'm not. I must be geting screwed."

If I was still at UAL I would be happy that the furloughed pilots were getting a little something to help them and their families out. The expense is chump change, and I think ALPA did the pilots a good service by giving them this option. (they don't have to do it)

From a business point of view, I think the dividends in Pilot/management relations will be 10x the cost.

 

[fracflyer]

But what are the chances of a full recall at UAL in the next 2 years?

Somewhere less than zero

 

[GuppyPuppy]

What happens if UAL fails to recover and part of their ongoing restructoring means they cant pay for the different pay scale and training/retraining?

eek:

If UAL folds up or if ANY flying is lost at Mesa/SkyWest due to UAL, these guys should be the first to go back to the street.

I was furloughed in January from UA and currently working for a UAX carrier. Should I complain to UAL and ALPA to ask for back pay since I have been flying their passengers around on UAX RJ's already?

Many of those UAL pilots who will benefit from this program will not even touch a CRJ700. They will be flying the same trips that I do, but getting more money - thanks United.

I wonder if ALPA ever thought about those of us furloughees who are already flying UA passengers around on UAX RJ's. Probably not - thanks ALPA.

GP

 

[fracflyer]

If UAL folds up or if ANY flying is lost at Mesa/SkyWest due to UAL, these guys should be the first to go back to the street.

I was furloughed in January from UA and currently working for a UAX carrier. Should I complain to UAL and ALPA to ask for back pay since I have been flying their passengers around on UAX RJ's already?

Many of those UAL pilots who will benefit from this program will not even touch a CRJ700. They will be flying the same trips that I do, but getting more money - thanks United.

I wonder if ALPA ever thought about those of us furloughees who are already flying UA passengers around on UAX RJ's. Probably not - thanks ALPA.

GP

1. They'll be at the bottom of the senority list, why wouldn't they be the first to go?

2. By the time this gets up and running you'll probably be at or close to second year pay.

3. I was furlouged almost two years ago, and I know this will never help me, but I'm glad someone might benifit. It doesn't hurt anybody.

Peace

 

[Carl_Everett]

I believe you're using the logic, "Someone is getting something I'm not. I must be geting screwed."

If I was still at UAL I would be happy that the furloughed pilots were getting a little something to help them and their families out. The expense is chump change, and I think ALPA did the pilots a good service by giving them this option. (they don't have to do it)

From a business point of view, I think the dividends in Pilot/management relations will be 10x the cost.

I am not using that logic at all.

What people need to realize is that this is not helping UAL pilots. It is not helping regional pilots. It is ruining the profession. This is driving pilot's pay down on both sides.

You said regional pilots didn't have the balls to vote down a concessionary T/A, that is why the pay is so bad there. What was the other option? Vote no and risk furlough, or worse liquidation. Are you happy that regional pilots are at least getting a little something to help them and thier families? I mean they aren't getting what what they deserve, but at least it is something.

You logic here will prevent any UAL furloughee from returning to UAL. Why should UAL grow mainline? They get great rates from the regionals. If they grow mainline, labor costs willl go up. If they grow Express, they can use the BAIN technique to drive Express labor cost down futher and make even more money for UAL. (Remember UAL now has the option to change the flying allocations after a set amount of time) If we keep going down that path, the logical progression will be that UAL will stop operating aircraft all together. They will farm out all flying and only sell tickets.

Back to you idea of my logic. Isn't that what every mainline pilot in the past 10 years has complained about. Regional pilots getting something that they are not getting. They must be getting screwed. [Read RJ's]

 

[Carl_Everett]

I don't think that UAL having to repay training contracts will be an issue. Which of the UA regionals have training contracts, and how long are they for?

In the unlikely situation where UAL recalled all of it's pilots before their training contracts were up, it would mean that UAL would be making money, and getting their pilots back to fly mainline A/C would outweigh the cost of repaying a training contract.

But what are the chances of a full recall at UAL in the next 2 years?

How much do you wanna bet that just before the 1st UAL pilot heads over to MESA, J.O. will make the training contract 7 years? I don't think the unions have any control over training contracts. Management has the option to change them at will.

 

[fracflyer]

I am not using that logic at all.

What people need to realize is that this is not helping UAL pilots. It is not helping regional pilots. It is ruining the profession. This is driving pilot's pay down on both sides.

You said regional pilots didn't have the balls to vote down a concessionary T/A, that is why the pay is so bad there. What was the other option? Vote no and risk furlough, or worse liquidation. Are you happy that regional pilots are at least getting a little something to help them and thier families? I mean they aren't getting what what they deserve, but at least it is something.

You logic here will prevent any UAL furloughee from returning to UAL. Why should UAL grow mainline? They get great rates from the regionals. If they grow mainline, labor costs willl go up. If they grow Express, they can use the BAIN technique to drive Express labor cost down futher and make even more money for UAL. (Remember UAL now has the option to change the flying allocations after a set amount of time) If we keep going down that path, the logical progression will be that UAL will stop operating aircraft all together. They will farm out all flying and only sell tickets.

Back to you idea of my logic. Isn't that what every mainline pilot in the past 20 years has complained about. Regional pilots getting something that they are not getting. They must be getting screwed. [Read RJ's]

I can't say I disagree with your arguments regarding the future of the industry, but that is an entirely different subject from the one at hand. A few UAL pilots going to Mesa or Skywest has nothing to do with this. Mesa or Skywest would hire pilots anyway. This is not going to influence the future of the profession.

Now, if you're saying that UAL ALPA should of never allowed reduction of the scope provisions to allow 70 RJ's in the first place, that's a different story. However, they're just following the example of the boys at DAL and AA that led the way.

On the RJ question, the difference is that the RJ's DID end up screwing the mainline guys. Not to blame the regional guys, but ALPA dropped the ball on the RJ issue.

In my opinion, for the last 10 years the mainline guys have tried to push down the regional guys. The regional guys have spent the time pushing back. In the end management will win and we'll only have ourselves to blame

Good luck

 

[Carl_Everett]

..snip..

A few UAL pilots going to Mesa or Skywest has nothing to do with this. Mesa or Skywest would hire pilots anyway. This is not going to influence the future of the profession.

..snip..

But UAL ALPA had to use negotiating capital to get this deal. How much of that pay cut do you think was from this deal? Did management want 1%-2% in pay cuts in exchange for this psuedo J4J deal? Maybe it was a work rule change. I bet they just didn't "give" it to the pilots for nothing, out of the goodness of their hearts. Whatever it was, it was too much. Like you said those furloughs could have went to MESA anyway. The UAL pilot group had to give something up for basically nothing.

UAL should be using ALL assets to help the bottom line of UAL. That is the only way UAL pilots will benefit.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

The roots of the problem go back to deregulation. If the majors hadn't shifted flying to lower cost regionals they would be out of business. It's that simple. Free markets and capitalism is what you're up against. U had the most restrictive scope and they were the first to fall. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is we have more applicants than postions. It gets further complicated when you throw in someone like Ornstein combined with a pilot group that failed to simply wait for the judge to render the single carrier ruling. Doh!

 

[fracflyer]

But UAL ALPA had to use negotiating capital to get this deal. How much of that pay cut do you think was from this deal? Did management want 1%-2% in pay cuts in exchange for this psuedo J4J deal? Maybe it was a work rule change. I bet they just didn't "give" it to the pilots for nothing, out of the goodness of their hearts. Whatever it was, it was too much. Like you said those furloughs could have went to MESA anyway. The UAL pilot group had to give something up for basically nothing.

UAL should be using ALL assets to help the bottom line of UAL. That is the only way UAL pilots will benefit.

Since this agreement was well after the new contract, I assume nothing was given up. The 70 seat jets were coming anyway. Probably done as a goodwill jesture for the pilots. God knows they need some goodwill at UAL.

 

[fracflyer]

The roots of the problem go back to deregulation. If the majors hadn't shifted flying to lower cost regionals they would be out of business. It's that simple. Free markets and capitalism is what you're up against. U had the most restrictive scope and they were the first to fall. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is we have more applicants than postions. It gets further complicated when you throw in someone like Ornstein combined with a pilot group that failed to simply wait for the judge to render the single carrier ruling. Doh!

I've got to disagree on a couple points:

1. If none of the majors had been allowed to shift flying to regionals then the playing field would of remained level and they would of had to complete against each other.


1.5 U had bigger problems than restrictive scope.

2. I believe in capitalism, but the entire reason unions exist is to control it. If pure capitalism was allowed to exist, then we'd all be making 25 cents/hr flying our 100 hours a month.

3. The reason pay is so low at the regionals is not because you have so many applicants. The majors had 10x the applicants when they were hiring. It's because people see the regionals a stepping stone. They're aprehensive to stick their necks out and stand up for better pay and working conditions, because they think the major job is right around the corner. (Of course the Comair guys do have brass ones with their 90 day strike) The key is organization and unity.