UAL Pilots take Skywest and Mesa jobs

[fracflyer]

In your perfect world, just who would be in charge of controlling where the majors shifted their flying? How would you have denied new entry to the market? How would you have made them compete against each other?

1. In my perfect world scope language at the beginning would of prevented flying being farmed out to another pilot group. This situation has resulted in us (pilots) having to fight each other. There would of been no entry denied to the market, but all planes with United or Delta etc. on the tail should of been flown by pilots on the United, Delta, etc. senority list. United, AMR, and Delta should have to compete against each other. Not ACA pilots vs. UAL pilots and ASA/Comair pilots vs. Delta pilots. ALPA dropped this ball at the beginning and never saw the long term implications of the RJ.



So it would seem that you believe in "situational capitalism". You believe in it, but just not for your industry. That sort of sounds like the phrase I hear about taxes. "Don't tax you, don't tax me, tax the guy behind the tree".

Your conclusion about the result of pure capitalism only shows your lack of understanding of economics. A purely competitive marketplace will always reach a level of equilibrium. In our present system, beginners see the upper level of earnings paid out to international777 Captains and they decide to work for nothing in order to get to that level. As long as unions play favorites and prop up the wages for a select few, it basically guarantees that those at the bottom will continue to sacrific in order to be in a position that might allow them to one day gain the top level job. The problem is this, the low wages accepted by the bottom only drag down the numbers of people working at the top wages. If the true effect of accepting slave wages at the bottom were unveiled, it is almost a given that the downward pressure would be stopped because top level wages no longer exist across the board. However, since the union manages to protect the favored few, all of the entry level aspirants continue to see the illusive pot of gold at rainbows end and continue to work for nothing in an attempt to reach said pot.



So, I study the socio-economics of the situation and conclude that the problem we face is not entry level wannabees, nor top wage earning pilots, nor the free market. Our problem is a union structure that continues to ignore true market forces. If ALPA were to take on the characteristics of a benevolent dictatorship, we could all do well. As long as ALPA tries to maintain Mr. Worths wages and supress Mr. Commuter Pilots wages, we will continue to see wages and working conditions slide.

If ALPA were to allow market realities to set wages, and concentrate on what they really do best, like: working conditions, safety, legal help, etc,; we would all be making a decent wage and working in an acceptable environment. As long as DAL, etc has 777 Captains making a quarter of a mil, the aspirants will continue to work for nothing and drag the rest of us down.

Maybe you need to read a little history if you really think the free market is setting pilot wages in aviation. There are thousands of pilots that would do the same job a pilot at the majors do for 50% of the money. If supply and demand were allowed to run free, then a 777 captain would be lucky to make 50K and a F/O 30K. Why do you think the Big 3 had 10,000 applications on file during the hiring rush of the late 90's? Unions, in general, have raised the standard of all workers in America. Where do you think the 5 day work week came from? How about the 40 hours week? How about retirement plans and employer provided health insurance. I believe in the free market, but the uncontrolled market treats people like any other resource. One to be used up and thrown away. Read Upton Sinclar's "The Jungle" to see how workers were treated at the turn of century before unions gained power. Capitalism must be tempered with Unions and government regulations to protect workers.

The answer? I think ALPA needs a strategy that allows pilots to bargin on a single level. Not against each other. How are they going to do it? It might be too late.



Exactly. But point three is in conflict with points one and two. Which perspective do your really believe in?

regards,
enigma

Point three is fully in compliance with my other ones. It's an easy example of how the supply of pilots far outweighs the demand, however Unions have been able to keep wages high. If the market were allowed to set wages we'd all be making next to nothing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Surplus, do you think J4J is radically different from staple? I was under the impression that the majority of CMR/ASA pilots would go for the staple...

*J4J allows pilots from another airline to take the most senior positions and schedules, denying the rightful seniority list holder of his, or her, seniority.

*J4J presumes that the regional pilots are second class citizens, to be at a second class airline that can be limited, controlled, or destroyed at the whim of the mainline MEC.

*J4J gives the regional pilots the promise of possible future expansion in exchange for giving up pay and position now. In every J4J, or flow through, type deal the regional pilot has never realized the reward for their sacrifice. In every case, the major pilots have taken what they want and years later the regional pilots are forgotten. The best examples of flow throughs are COEX and Eagle. The best example of J4J is the US Air Wholly Owneds. Flow throughs and J4J have destroyed many ALPA members' jobs.

*J4J allows pilots at another airline to control the careers, wages and working conditions of pilots at a separate carrier. The pilots at the regional have little say and no representation in matters effecting their employment.

*J4J puts pilots who have no interest in the success of the airline (after all, it isn't "their" airline) in control of the ship. An airline like CHQ may find that their rather incredible perofrmance numbers are not delivered when disgruntled US Air pilots are at the helm of Republic jets - particularly as former $200,000 a year pilots tire of $40 something thousand pay and difficult working conditions.

*A staple is one list. Everyone has a seniority number and has the rights that the seniority number provides.

*One list means one MEC structure, one representational structure, one negotiating agenda.

*One list means one team. While there may be differences between interests of the senior and junior pilots, they both are in the same boat together and dependent on the success of their airline.

Surplus 1 is better read than I am and can probably add a hundered points to my list.

Thanks for asking
~~~^~~~

 

[Freight Dog]

*J4J allows pilots from another airline to take the most senior positions and schedules, denying the rightful seniority list holder of his, or her, seniority.

So fins, are you being selective here? For example, you are flying your CRJ under DL code. MD88 crew that used to do that route is now in unemployment line or at Home Depot while you are flying your shiny new CRJ. Is it not their right to protect themselves? After all, you gain your seniority at their expense.

*J4J presumes that the regional pilots are second class citizens, to be at a second class airline that can be limited, controlled, or destroyed at the whim of the mainline MEC.

I'd say MEC is looking after its members' interests since YOU are taking the flying away from them because YOU are cheap labor. Secondly, you are STILL outnumbered in ALPA national by mainline... democracy rules. I highly doubt that mainline MEC's wake up in the morning thinking of ways to screw the "second-class" regional guys. Second-class.... please!!!

*J4J gives the regional pilots the promise of possible future expansion in exchange for giving up pay and position now. In every J4J, or flow through, type deal the regional pilot has never realized the reward for their sacrifice. In every case, the major pilots have taken what they want and years later the regional pilots are forgotten. The best examples of flow throughs are COEX and Eagle. The best example of J4J is the US Air Wholly Owneds. Flow throughs and J4J have destroyed many ALPA members' jobs.

The difference between those flowthrough setups and the J4J as I understand it is that if you want to fly A330 at USAir, you have to start in a Dash 8 first. Correct me if I'm wrong. Whereas, in any of those above, you can be bypassed. See, flowthrough is a double-edge sword. It's great for you when the mainline is hiring, but sucks for you when they're furloughing. That's the chance you take.

*J4J allows pilots at another airline to control the careers, wages and working conditions of pilots at a separate carrier. The pilots at the regional have little say and no representation in matters effecting their employment.

How's that? Can Capt. Burguey just arbitrarily say hey.. we're putting our 1310 furloughees at Comair? Naww... the pilots had to vote to allow J4J. You can cry me a river about tough choices, but ultimately, they voted for it...

*J4J puts pilots who have no interest in the success of the airline (after all, it isn't "their" airline) in control of the ship. An airline like CHQ may find that their rather incredible perofrmance numbers are not delivered when disgruntled US Air pilots are at the helm of Republic jets - particularly as former $200,000 a year pilots tire of $40 something thousand pay and difficult working conditions.

Hasnt happened yet...

*A staple is one list. Everyone has a seniority number and has the rights that the seniority number provides.

*One list means one MEC structure, one representational structure, one negotiating agenda.

*One list means one team. While there may be differences between interests of the senior and junior pilots, they both are in the same boat together and dependent on the success of their airline.

Surplus 1 is better read than I am and can probably add a hundered points to my list.

Thanks for asking
~~~^~~~

I agree with you to some extent fins. One list, one MEC, one structure, one agenda... yeah, I'd love it. It would make the pilots be way too powerful. That's exactly why that hasn't happened. Even if ALPA threw its collective weight behind merging WO airlines into one fold, it is ultimately management's choice to do so.

As it stands in the industry, you have replaced the mainline massively. You are hiring while mainline is furloughing. I applaud ASA for taking Delta furloughees amongst its fold without resigning. But at the same token, can you blame the mainline MEC for looking out for their furloughees - be it J4J or preferential hiring? In any case... the regional pilot group has to OK it in terms of voting for, or against it.

Would you be against your MEC trying to secure you a job while you were furloughed? I doubt you would...


Regards!

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree with you to some extent fins. One list, one MEC, one structure, one agenda... yeah, I'd love it. It would make the pilots be way too powerful. That's exactly why that hasn't happened. Even if ALPA threw its collective weight behind merging WO airlines into one fold, it is ultimately management's choice to do so.

No, it is a matter of law. Management has to comply. Why hasn't it happened? ALPA has not filed a single carrier petition for any of the current regional airlines. There is a reason why ALPA has not even tried, the Delta MEC does not want it.

But at the same token, can you blame the mainline MEC for looking out for their furloughees

No, I do not blame the mainline MEC. They represent their pilots. My problem is with ALPA National, that lakes the will to lead the national union and reign in the predatory inclinations of the major MEC's. My MEC can not represent me to the operator of my airline because ALPA refuses to let them.

In any case... the regional pilot group has to OK it in terms of voting for, or against it.

Not true. CC Air voted against it, ALPA National refused to endorse their contract. Without at PWA the airline folded. Pilots at Mesa did not vote for the UAL J4J and pilots at the US Air wholly owneds were faced with their destruction if they did not ratify jets for jobs (reference CC Air and the litigation against ALPA by Allegheny pilots, that ALPA won on a motion to dismiss).

We are not taking mainline flying. The Delta MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages.

We tried to give you the flying, the airplanes and the votes at the 2000 Board of Directors meeting. Your MEC lied at the BOD meeting and kept us separate. Now why don't you follow up with them for the harm they have done to your career?

Can you blame us for fighting to secure representation? Can you blame us for fighting to avoid being replaced by a furloughed pilot from another airline?

As a Dash 8 pilot I'm pretty sure you know about the US Air situation. Are you saying that is moral? Is that what you think is fair?

 

[MAK]

But you assume that "Regionals" have to be bad jobs.

Only because the people that run the majors and their affiliates want to keep it that way.

Until regional jobs are looked upon as careers with all the compensation and benefits they deserve, they will continue to be filled by "stepping-stone" pilots willing to work for sub-par wages in exchange for "quality" turbine time in hopes that they will get picked up by a major some day. What a bargain!! It's virtually domestic cabotage.

As the regionals grow by filling routes for the shrinking majors, the pilots at the regionals can simply count on adding years to their term at that carrier. Only when the majors are forced to grow will job opportunities for all the "time-builders" out there materialize.

Unless, of course, SWA and JetBlue can make room for all of them.

-MAK

 

[SkyWstman]

Things are changing fast in this industry. Some one will always get paid more than you. You may be on top or on bottom when it is all said and done. At the end of your life the only thing that will matter is if you knew Jesus.

 

[Freight Dog]

No, it is a matter of law. Management has to comply. Why hasn't it happened? ALPA has not filed a single carrier petition for any of the current regional airlines. There is a reason why ALPA has not even tried, the Delta MEC does not want it.

If it was a matter of law, it would have been done. Do tell me... do you have anything in your contract that requires the company to merge you into Delta that was overlooked?


No, I do not blame the mainline MEC. They represent their pilots. My problem is with ALPA National, that lakes the will to lead the national union and reign in the predatory inclinations of the major MEC's. My MEC can not represent me to the operator of my airline because ALPA refuses to let them.

You know, it's hard to get sympathy from other pilot groups when your airline is expanding while the mainline is shrinking. Yet, the mainline *STILL* holds the cards due to sheer numbers. Sorry bud, but mainline still outnumbers you by a long shot.


Not true. CC Air voted against it, ALPA National refused to endorse their contract. Without at PWA the airline folded. Pilots at Mesa did not vote for the UAL J4J and pilots at the US Air wholly owneds were faced with their destruction if they did not ratify jets for jobs (reference CC Air and the litigation against ALPA by Allegheny pilots, that ALPA won on a motion to dismiss).

Yeah, that's too bad.. but you know... sometimes the pilots have to stand up for what they believe is right. Maybe they're not ready to sacrifice for what they "believe" is right. But just like Mesa and any other carrier that votes in a bad deal, they lose their right to complain about it - they voted for it.

With all due respect to Mesa pilots, but they're like JO's battered wife. They'll do whatever JO tells them to. They proved it in their last contract.

JO: SIGN HERE, or I'm gonna b*tch slap you.
MESA Pilots: OK, please don't hurt me anymore.
JO: Now, I'm gonna do this.. and you will like it or I'll slap you into next week.
MESA Pilots: OK, do it.. just don't hurt me.

No sympathy for people like that.

We are not taking mainline flying. The Delta MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages.

Riiiiiiiggghhhht!!!! Come on fins... so by the same token... if you "raise the bar" with your new ASA contract, if Mesa joins the DCI ranks and starts flying out of ATL and DFW, would you say that ASA MEC sold this flying to achieve higher wages?

We tried to give you the flying, the airplanes and the votes at the 2000 Board of Directors meeting. Your MEC lied at the BOD meeting and kept us separate. Now why don't you follow up with them for the harm they have done to your career?

I don't work for Delta. Not my MEC. But like I told you before, I agree with you that there should be one list, one level of representation, truly one voice. But once again... what is there to force the company to staple you to the bottom of Delta list?

Can you blame us for fighting to secure representation? Can you blame us for fighting to avoid being replaced by a furloughed pilot from another airline?

As a Dash 8 pilot I'm pretty sure you know about the US Air situation. Are you saying that is moral? Is that what you think is fair?

Actually, when I flew a Dash 8, I didn't fly for USAir WO's. But personally, I do think it's fair that half of new jets should be staffed by furloughed mainline pilots. It still creates a net growth for the regional folks. One thing I like about USAir J4J deal is that, at least on paper for now, one has to start in a Dash 8 there in order to get to fly A330 later on.

It's interesting to watch you blame other pilot groups, but not the morally-bankrupt management.

Finally, you pro-RJDC folks remind me of high school freshmen girls who claim their lives are ruined by their parents.

Let's face it... 1310 guys/gals at Delta on the street since 9/11. Between you and CMR, how many have you hired? How many upgrades has that resulted in? How many new bid lines? Sorry, but until you show me the actual harm that ALPA has caused you by failing to properly represent you, I can't help but laugh and compare you people to these rebellious teenage girls.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Frieght Dog:

Unless you quote correctly there is no easy way to debate with you.

None the less, just off the top of my head there are several points you are incorrect on.

(1) ASA is not growing, we are shrinking because we have no scope and ALPA will not allow us to negotiate with the party that controls scope (therefore we could not sell it, we don't have it and can't get it). It is looking like I will loose my 4th stripe this fall due to displacements at ASA.

(2) US Labor law prohibits a company from operating an alter ego subsidiary for the purpose of undermining collective bargaining efforts. This is how the "Single Carrier Petitions" are brought before the NLRB. I posted some on the law, but don't have my research handy. You can probably find it archived on this board if you are genuinely interested.

(3) US Air furloughees do not get half the airplanes, they get half the pilot slots. In other words, they get the left seat unless they can not qualify. This has not been a problem at US Air, but American and United hired some very low time pilots who don't have the time to hold an ATP. One Harrier pilot I know comes to mind. He got hired at AA with less than 700 TT. He is now furloughed, but can not qual for the left seat of an RJ at Eagle. Besides, how many 1,500 hour Captains should be flying around?

(4) J4J is now at almost every airline except for ASA and Comair. For our defense of this predatory theft of our most senior positions I thank the RJDC.

ALPA National is not my parent. There is no correlation. ALPA National is our exclusive bargaining agent. Unfortunately there are no checks and balances on the unrestrained power of democracy and the parties in power have abused the democracy by making it very undemocratic. Look at the Executive Vice President structure of the union. EVP's are awarded on the amount of dues and the type of equipment in your fleet - so it isn't one pilot, one vote.

Even so, DeToqueville warned that one of the perils of democracy was that the majority would use the democracy to take from the pockets of the minority. That is eactly what is happening when the Delta MEC tries to negotiate cuts for all employees, including the pilots they do not represent.

My MEC is not even allowed in the negotiations over my wages and working conditions and I do not have the opportunity to vote on contracts with the Delta pilots that control my career. In effect my union representation has been hijacked. The RJDC will hopefully get the ship back under control and restore our union.

 

[Freight Dog]

Frieght Dog:

Unless you quote correctly there is no easy way to debate with you.

None the less, just off the top of my head there are several points you are incorrect on.

(1) ASA is not growing, we are shrinking because we have no scope and ALPA will not allow us to negotiate with the party that controls scope (therefore we could not sell it, we don't have it and can't get it). It is looking like I will loose my 4th stripe this fall due to displacements at ASA.

You haven't lost your 4th stripe yet, have you? In case you do lose it, and I hope you don't.. but should you lose it, watch how soon you get it back when you sign a new contract. You are being played like a fiddle by the company... and you don't even see it. No wonder you can't get scope. Yet, you will quickly blame ALPA for you losing your stripe.


(2) US Labor law prohibits a company from operating an alter ego subsidiary for the purpose of undermining collective bargaining efforts. This is how the "Single Carrier Petitions" are brought before the NLRB. I posted some on the law, but don't have my research handy. You can probably find it archived on this board if you are genuinely interested.

So why aren't you merged with Comair then? ALPA's fault?

(3) US Air furloughees do not get half the airplanes, they get half the pilot slots. In other words, they get the left seat unless they can not qualify. This has not been a problem at US Air, but American and United hired some very low time pilots who don't have the time to hold an ATP. One Harrier pilot I know comes to mind. He got hired at AA with less than 700 TT. He is now furloughed, but can not qual for the left seat of an RJ at Eagle. Besides, how many 1,500 hour Captains should be flying around?

There really is no right answer. Mainline can argue that it's their old routes flown under their code but for peanuts, and in interests of their job security, they want to fly those routes even if it's for peanut wages. Regional guys say that it's abrogation of seniority with these mainline guys getting captain slots on those routes and it's slowing down their careers. Who's right and who's not? Depends on whose side of the fence were you on. I'm willing to bet that if you were on the mainline side of the fence, you'd be singing a different tune. Also, don't forget that at least on paper, if USAirways survives, those guys flying Dash 8's in USAir colors don't have to interview again if/when USAirways needs pilots again. But then again... everyone wants instant gratification.


(4) J4J is now at almost every airline except for ASA and Comair. For our defense of this predatory theft of our most senior positions I thank the RJDC.

Once again, read above... it's predatory to you because you don't gain as much as you would without those furloughees. You'd rather have them thrown out on their asses while you fly your RJ under their code, in their livery, on the route they flew just a month before. Oh yeah... and if they want to fly those routes in an RJ for say Comair, they're told to pound sand if they don't resign from Delta. Class act.

Also, it is CMR/ASA pilots suing ALPA for predatory scope allegedly limiting their careers. How many have both hired since Delta started with their furloughs?

ALPA National is not my parent. There is no correlation. ALPA National is our exclusive bargaining agent. Unfortunately there are no checks and balances on the unrestrained power of democracy and the parties in power have abused the democracy by making it very undemocratic. Look at the Executive Vice President structure of the union. EVP's are awarded on the amount of dues and the type of equipment in your fleet - so it isn't one pilot, one vote.

It may not be.. but regardless, your membership doesn't generate enough dues due to the number of members, as well as the amount on your paycheck. Gives you something to strive towards, doesn't it?


Even so, DeToqueville warned that one of the perils of democracy was that the majority would use the democracy to take from the pockets of the minority. That is eactly what is happening when the Delta MEC tries to negotiate cuts for all employees, including the pilots they do not represent.

My MEC is not even allowed in the negotiations over my wages and working conditions and I do not have the opportunity to vote on contracts with the Delta pilots that control my career. In effect my union representation has been hijacked. The RJDC will hopefully get the ship back under control and restore our union.

Tell me something fins... why should your MEC be around Delta pilot negotiations? Didn't Delta pilots say that if paycuts are in order, then everyone should take pay cuts, including you guys? Making their paycuts be conditional upon other unions and nonunionized workers taking paycuts is a far cry from them negotiating your paycuts without your MEC even being around...
Once again... a 14 year old teenybopper with a tantrum saying her mom ruined her life because she wouldn't let her go partying on Friday night.

Just for the records though, I'm against regionals taking pay cuts because regional pay, work rules, retirement etc. generally leave much to be desired when compared to the mainline. Creating more disparity between the two further takes away from the mainline since you become an even cheaper labor. Making regionals being looked on as career places instead of stepping stones is one way to alleviate the current problem. That's another discussion altogother...

Once again fins... I challenge you to give me a solution to this problem. I asked you this a few months ago, and never got an answer. Address your plight as you see it, address mainline plight to keep their jobs, address the thousands of furloughees from mainline, come up with a REALISTIC solution, not rhetoric, address scope and how it should work (not the "good scope includes, bad scope excludes" crapola) - exactly who would you scope out? What about those airlines that are not wholly-owned like yourself like say - ACA, AWAC, Mesa, TSA. Note I only mentioned some ALPA-represented non-wholly owned airlines.
Also, tell me how is RJDC going to protect you against Mesa offering to fly your RJ's for a fraction of your cost?

I'll be waiting..

Maybe you can solve this for everyone...


Best regards!

 

[scopeCMRandASA]

What has changed over the years is ALPA's negotiating pattern. Back in the good old days the union "jacked up the house" by lifting every corner to elevate the profession.

Now a days ALPA has slipped into letting a couple of MEC's run the entire union for the exclusive benefit of their members and the detriment of everyone else. The favored MEC's ascended to the current level of DAL. Now the house of cards is collapsing because the foundation is not firm. Two of the corners of the house of ALPA got jacked so high, that the house is falling in.

Why are "Regional" jobs bad? One reason is that the Delta MEC has proposed pay cuts for "all Delta employees" to offset the mainline pay cuts - so an ASA pilot at industry average wages is being asked by his own union (without his MEC's participation) to take a pay cut to supplement the income of a pilot at Delta making 47% more than the most highly paid pilot on the planet and 60% more than the industry average for the equipment.

Regional jobs don't have to stink - it is simply a result of the representation ALPA has provided. The union forgot about "restoring the industry," the union forgot we are all in this together.

~~~^~~~

I'll tell you what, you guys strike until you achieve mainline parity and work rules. That is all you have to do. Comair did not do this. They quit early. They knew that mainline costs would bury them, and it will bury you.
You forget that the primary reason of your job's creation IS lower pay and benefits. Look it up.

The memo I read from the Delta MEC chairman mentioned concession parity with contract labor/ground support, renegotiated aircraft leases, fuel contracts, etc. Even if they required all other employees to take the pay cuts, it would have been because of the directionof the membership. Just about every Delta pilot wrongly believes that CMW and ASA pilots should accept cuts as well. Besides, I think the Delta MEC said it because they knew this would be a drop dead issue for the company.

--a concerned regional pilot