UAL Pilots get TSA'ed in MIA

[banned username 1]

I don't have my flight ops manual with me so I have to go by memory. As I recall, you don't have an option to refuse- well, you DO, but if you do, it is taken as a admission of guilt (or no contest). At a large station like MIA, there are certainly UAL personnel who are responsible to handle both the employee and the situation and get the proper tests administered and monitored. It's only fair to all participants. As far as breath tests go, it was informative (as well as funny) to see "MythBusters" try to fool the breathalizer (they couldn't).

You are all correct when you state that you'd WANT the test to establish your innocence. Also, as we're all aware, very seldom does any news reporting agency get the entire story entirely correct. There are a lot of places here where factual errors are possible- one glaring one is that UAL "suspended" the pilot. They didn't "suspend" anybody.

As Eagleflip said, statistically, there are going to be pilots who have problems with alcohol or drugs. The amazing thing is that in this day of being "kinder and gentler" with numerous intervention and confidentiality programs, that pilots will endure the lifestyle and it's inherent risks by continuing down a dead-end street.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this whole story.

Oh, as an interesting aside, a fellow pilot once told me that a flight attendant came to the cockpit telling of a passenger who was concerned about the safety of the flight because "they had seen the pilot drinking a beer". You can imagine the captain's response and all of the emotions. He went back and met with the passenger and told them that it was a pretty serious accusation (and other passengers had heard the charge) they were making. How did they come to that conclusion? The passenger was steadfast. "I know you were, because I saw you myself as I got on the airplane. I looked right through the window and saw you had a beer on your table." The captain proceeded to tell them that they were looking at the first class section of the aircraft- NOT the cockpit! Then he demanded to have a breath test, which was negative, and went on to fly the trip- after throwing the passenger off the plane.

 

[AceCrackshot]

EagleFlip said:

"As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly."

I have a number of problems with this Eagleflip...call me an unabashed wand monkey hater but...

Who guards the guardians? To wit, what training does your average TSA screener have in sensing the proverbial drunk pilot? Common sense, inituition, what? Considering the ramifications to the accused, is that level of "training" a sufficent reed on which to rest your career?

We have multi-person crews for a reason. Quite honestly, the other pilot, cabin attendants, ramp personnel that the accused will come in contact all have a legal, plus personal obligation to call the accused out. Considering the TSA track record of incompetence and featherbedding, are increased powers for their employee's really a good idea. As was noted, hammering the pilot, guilty or not, is usually the order of the day.

At what point do we have a TSA minder just come with us on all layovers? I mean, since obviously we have no expectation of privacy, then where is the cutoff? Breathalyzer before each flight, each day. One a month?

Drug testing was bad solution to a nonexistant problem. Do pilots drink? Yes. More than they should. Probably. Has it contributed negatively to aviation safety in the U.S.? IMHO, not demonstrably.

 

[flx757]

One other thought though: Does anyone know if there has ever been an airline accident/incident wherein it was discovered the proximate cause was consumption of alcohol or drugs by the flight crew?

I don't know about "proximate cause", but the company I was flying for at the time...Trans-Colorado Airlines, operating as "Continental Express" through a wet-lease agreement with Rocky Mountain Airways, had an accident on approach to Durango in the mid 80s that resulted in the fatality of both crewmembers and a number of the passengers. The Captain was found to have cocaine metabolites in his system, and while he was not directly under the influence at the time of the accident, they determined that fatique related to his recent use was a contributing factor. This accident was a major catalyst in the DOT instituing the drug and alcohol testing program we now are all subject to.

 

[Ty Webb]

I thought that Elizabeth Dole led to the testing program we are all subject to. . . . Oh, no, wait, she led to the development of Viagra.

Poor Bob.

 

[radarlove]

Oh, as an interesting aside, a fellow pilot once told me that a flight attendant came to the cockpit telling of a passenger who was concerned about the safety of the flight because "they had seen the pilot drinking a beer". You can imagine the captain's response and all of the emotions. He went back and met with the passenger and told them that it was a pretty serious accusation (and other passengers had heard the charge) they were making. How did they come to that conclusion? The passenger was steadfast. "I know you were, because I saw you myself as I got on the airplane. I looked right through the window and saw you had a beer on your table." The captain proceeded to tell them that they were looking at the first class section of the aircraft- NOT the cockpit! Then he demanded to have a breath test, which was negative, and went on to fly the trip- after throwing the passenger off the plane.

It's always interesting to me how over-reactive UAL pilots can be. Why take a breath test? Why kick the passenger off?

While I don't really doubt that the story is true, I also don't see any way to get a breath test just because you want one. If there is no "reasonable suspicion", (again, by a trained employee, not some pax) then there is no test. That's to keep drug/alcohol testing from becoming a weapon in personal disputes.

 

[InTransit]

EagleFlip said:

"As for pilots reported by the TSA as having alcohol on their breath that were drinking, the list appears to be increasing. I have no problem with that. If a "wand monkey" (your term, not mine) keeps an inebriated pilot out of the cockpit, great. Frankly, anyone who would argue the opposite simply isn't thinking clearly."

I have a number of problems with this Eagleflip...call me an unabashed wand monkey hater but...

Who guards the guardians? To wit, what training does your average TSA screener have in sensing the proverbial drunk pilot? Common sense, inituition, what? Considering the ramifications to the accused, is that level of "training" a sufficent reed on which to rest your career?

We have multi-person crews for a reason. Quite honestly, the other pilot, cabin attendants, ramp personnel that the accused will come in contact all have a legal, plus personal obligation to call the accused out. Considering the TSA track record of incompetence and featherbedding, are increased powers for their employee's really a good idea. As was noted, hammering the pilot, guilty or not, is usually the order of the day.

At what point do we have a TSA minder just come with us on all layovers? I mean, since obviously we have no expectation of privacy, then where is the cutoff? Breathalyzer before each flight, each day. One a month?

Drug testing was bad solution to a nonexistant problem. Do pilots drink? Yes. More than they should. Probably. Has it contributed negatively to aviation safety in the U.S.? IMHO, not demonstrably.

I believe EagleFlip made a good arguement. I also believe that the TSA, despite it's weaknesses, has trained adequately enough for this scenario: If you smell alcohol, report it. The only ramifications a pilot will face are those equivalent to the level of his responsibily. And don't count on crewmembers to save the day, especially when they're the drinking buddies from the night before.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

It's time we start policing ourselves on this alcohol misuse issue. It may be embarrasing but, if you see a fellow pilot at the bar loading up, maybe a discrete word might make a difference. The response might be to go f yourself or maybe, though unlikely, thanks for your interest. We have a situation here where everybody wants to be a hero in their supervisor's eyes. Popping a pilot, whether real or imagined, by a TSA screener, may put a notch in their belt, but it's up to us to prevent that from happening. If it does happen, demand an alcohol screening or leave your ID at the door. I've walked off a flight for an unfounded alcohol misuse accusation, got tested, negative results, got paid for the trip, and lunch on the company. If you think you're anywhere close to not being legal, call off sick. Just don't let anybody get us. Too many wanna be hero TSA, LEO and Judges out there making our jobs tougher everyday.

 

[radarlove]

Why in the world would you "get yourself tested" and walk off a flight? Are you an ex UAL guy? And who tested you? Under what auspices?

Again, if you are not under "reasonable suspicion", there is no route to take under the DOT program to just go get a test. If you did, then you (and your company, and the testing contractor) violated the FAA/DOT regulations. Nice.

Now, I'm sure it made you fell all better to inconvenience a whole plane of people, plus your airline, plus the guy that had to replace you, but again, why? You weren't in any danger, you job wasn't in any danger and by storming off, all you did was look like a primadonna.

Why not a "We just don't joke about that sir."

Or, "If you are not comfortable sir, here is our customer service representative who will take care of your concerns and rebook you on another flight."

There--now the only person inconvenienced is the jerk, not the customers and your employer.

If you're curious, look here.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Why not, I got paid for it and the pax who made the accusation got a visit from corp. security. Also, you don't know who overheard the accusation. If it was a NY Times or USAToday reporter, you could be front page news the next day. Three things you don't say boarding a plane; Hijack, Bomb, and is the pilot drunk. It's time we stand up for ourselves. It seems that as an industry for the most part, nobody else will. BTW, the flight was delayed for about 20 mins. and a reserve Capt. flew the trip. But if you want to tolerate the continuing disrespect we continue to get as airline pilots, that's your choice. No primadonna about it. Just retaining our dignity.

 

[radarlove]

Why not, I got paid for it

Nice.

 

[jimEJet]

Radar Love, I Agree With Jb Bus Drvr

I Here The Same $hit Everytime Some A$$hole In Las Or Southern Cal Comes Down Our Jetways.

Hope The You Guys Haven't Been Drinking, Hope You Guys Weren't In The Bar, Hope You Guys Weren't Late Coming In Because You Had A Last Minute Drink.....

Just Really Getting Tired Of The Same Ol Jokes.

And You Know What? We Pilots Are Part To Blame For That Kind Of Disrespect. First Off, It Is In Fact The Supposed Professionals That Are Getting Busted By The Tsa Monkeys. Stop Drinking And Flying And That Would Stop All Of Our Harrasment In Our Profession, However. For The 99.9 True Professionals That Do Not Push The Drinking Rules We Need To Start Standing Up Against That Kind Of Crap. I Should Probably Pull Those People Aside And Politely Ask Them To Stop Those Comments In Front Of Our Anguish Pax Or I'll Have Them Removed And Put On An Airline Who Will Put Up With That Sort Of Harrassment.

Truly, I Do Not Respect Anyone Who Puts The Lives Of Our Customers And Coworkers, The Livelyhood Or Our Airline Or Disrespects Their Achievements In Life So Much That It's Worth An Extra Beer While At Work.

We Need To Stop The Downward Spiral Of Our Careers. This Just Puts More Fuel On It. Stop Drinking Like Your At A College Party. Go Get Help Or Go Get Another Job Jacka$$.

 

[banned username 1]

Hmmmm.....

Radarlove, me and my partners feel like we just got painted with somebody's broad brush. Wouldn't it have sufficed to think to yourself that you'd have done it differently? Handle a situation like that however you decide, but why be prejoritive about a fellow pilot- and his pilot group?

I was just thinking about a topic for discussion, and I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it used to be that pilots were held in the same esteem as doctors and lawyers. We can make all the jokes we want (and do) about lawyers. Doctors have seen their profession change over the years, but their profession is still generally regarded (I think) with respect. How do they do it?

My question, and it sort-of goes along with this thread, are pilots still looked up to with the respect that a highly-trained and responsible professional deserves?

If not, why not? If so, how so? Are we sometimes our own worst enemies? Are we, as a group, mutually supportive to each other and our profession? I truly am interested in your thoughtful responses and any examples you'd care to share. And I think it's something that every professional aviator should think about. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong...

 

[ultrarunner]

I hope this pilot is squekey clean. Then I hope this pilot files a CIVIL lawsuit for lost wages against this TSA PUKE. And wins.

It time to turn this $hit around.

"....racially profile, it's the only way...."

 

[radarlove]

Hmmmm.....

Radarlove, me and my partners feel like we just got painted with somebody's broad brush. Wouldn't it have sufficed to think to yourself that you'd have done it differently? Handle a situation like that however you decide, but why be prejoritive about a fellow pilot- and his pilot group?

I've just heard different versions over time, involving UAL pilots. Doesn't have to be UAL, but it strikes me as petulant.

I, too have heard the jokes. But I carry on, I don't throw a tantrum. Partially because I understand the DOT alcohol program and the rules.

Here's the interesting part--these guys don't seem to have the yarbles to do something assertive, like throwing the offensive passenger off, instead they choose the passive route--"FINE! I'LL JUST GO TAKE A DRUG TEST HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES?"

Delaying a flight and its passengers for your own passive-aggressive actions isn't "professional" as you folks keep typing. If you want to be treated as a professional, don't act like a five year-old.

There are chumps all across the world. If you are offended, take action. Kick the chump off. If you're not allowed to do that and have to resort to a tantrum "in the interest of safety", then you aren't a real professional, are you?

 

[densoo]

I Here The Same $hit Everytime Some A$$hole In Las Or Southern Cal Comes Down Our Jetways.

Hope The You Guys Haven't Been Drinking, Hope You Guys Weren't In The Bar, Hope You Guys Weren't Late Coming In Because You Had A Last Minute Drink.....

Just Really Getting Tired Of The Same Ol Jokes.

And You Know What? We Pilots Are Part To Blame For That Kind Of Disrespect. First Off, It Is In Fact The Supposed Professionals That Are Getting Busted By The Tsa Monkeys. Stop Drinking And Flying And That Would Stop All Of Our Harrasment In Our Profession, However. For The 99.9 True Professionals That Do Not Push The Drinking Rules We Need To Start Standing Up Against That Kind Of Crap. I Should Probably Pull Those People Aside And Politely Ask Them To Stop Those Comments In Front Of Our Anguish Pax Or I'll Have Them Removed And Put On An Airline Who Will Put Up With That Sort Of Harrassment.

Truly, I Do Not Respect Anyone Who Puts The Lives Of Our Customers And Coworkers, The Livelyhood Or Our Airline Or Disrespects Their Achievements In Life So Much That It's Worth An Extra Beer While At Work.

We Need To Stop The Downward Spiral Of Our Careers. This Just Puts More Fuel On It. Stop Drinking Like Your At A College Party. Go Get Help Or Go Get Another Job Jacka$$.

That's the longest book title ever.