UAL MEC (daddy) has to warn pilots (children) to stop denying j.s. to jetblue pilots

[Maj]

Opposite

Personally, I think that if the above happened (and I would hope it wouldn't...I commute offline) and we reciprocated in kind (which we most likely wouldn't) it would affect all JSers equally, especially a good number of NWA, UAL, AA, and DAL FAs.

In the meantime, I welcome anyone on my airplane. In fact, I'll swing through the gate and make sure to let folks know that I'll do everything possible to get them on. Rather than chastise them with questions and comments that I know they have no control over when they stop in to say hello, I say "Welcome aboard...make yourself comfortable."

I've had some that apparently are too good to stop in and say hello. I remind them when they're deplaning that if I tried that sh!t at their airline, I'd probably lose my head.

Life's too short to be bitter.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I am not saying that Jetblue has caused the problems at the legacy carriers, but they did contribute. When you have lower cost labor (prior to 9/11) and no pension plan, it lowers the bar. UAL and UAIR had problems despite Jetblue, but the Jetblue plan isn't friendly to union labor. A five year contract isn't exactly labor friendly.

ALPA needs to differentiate between pilot friends and union members. Airtran and SWA have in house unions and should be obviously be included in any jumpseat agreements. I would definitely support limiting jumpseat to union members only. While it may be unfortunate to lose access to Jetblues jumpseat, it would certainly be a reason to push for a union. They have very limited city pairings anyway. They have a ton of commuters at JFK and this would definitely effect their operations.

If they want to enjoy using the very large legacy networks to get to work, let them pay for their own tickets or move to New York or a Jetblue city.

Make the jumpseat a political tool! Join up or take greyhound!

Respectfully, furloughed dude:
Ref' your "five year contract", no pilot has not had their contract renewed. Not a factor. Cards would be out the next day if that were the case.
Please tell me how JB affected UA and UAIR prior to 9/11. Tell me how a 25 airplane startup (At 9/11, presently up to a whole 72 airplanes! UA, USAIR and AA have how many?) held you guys down. Perhaps you would prefer JB to pay much more and take concessions, later. Or furlough, as you apparently have been.
If it is true that JB has lowered the bar at your carrier, what kind of erectile-dysfunctional union do you have, anyway? What did you expect? A bunch of guys at a brand-new startup to go on strike before JB turned a wheel? What was YOUR carriers first contract like? Industry leading? If your management compares you to JB, stand up and grow a pair! Perhaps then JB pilots will see a benefit from union membership.
ALPA and APA have done much for safety and aeromedical. That said, besides a spiffy magazine, they never helped me much at my previous carrier.
You want to differentiate between "pilot friends and union members". I submit JB's liberal jumpseat policy benefits many more pilots and f/a s in a real-world way, than most of your union carriers do.
The last thing you want are "jumpseat wars".

 

[DIAMONDDD]

ALPA needs to differentiate between pilot friends and union members. Airtran and SWA have in house unions and should be obviously be included in any jumpseat agreements. I would definitely support limiting jumpseat to union members only.

Make the jumpseat a political tool! Join up or take greyhound!

In this Eutopia that you are in favor of, where would those "card-carrying" union members fit in that are now working for non-union airlines? Do you consider a furloughed UAL a union or non-union worker? How about an APA guy/gal? One who paid their dues, flew the contract, and was furloughed. Seems to me that a large chunk of B6 folks are furloughed. Wouldn't it be cool to be furloughed and then have a dude tell you, as you are trying to jump to work: "Hey! How ya doin' Dave? Haven't seen you since I flew with you here a couple of years back. How's the wife and kids? Good, good. Were you able to pay for COBRA with your unemployment? Man, that's unfortunate that you had to get furloughed. I remember back in '88 when I was furloughed. Rough times, rough times. Hey, by the way, I am not going to take you to New York today. It's a matter of principle, you see. You need to get a union over there. Anyway, get off the flight deck, we have to finish the checklist so we can push. Hey, and all my best to Cindy and the kids."


Wouldn't that be a real hoot?

DD

 

[furloughed dude]

Diamond,

I am not saying not be friends with nonunion members, just not give them access to the jumpseat. I know alot of folks at Jetblue are ex ALPA furloughees, but this isn't personal. I have many good friends that work there, and I tell them the same thing myself. If they want access to the large network carriers jumpseats, then organize. I know Jetblue pilots were pissed when the EMB rates were published, but after alot of huffing and puffing, the end result was the same. Management pretended to listen, but then paid at Comair rates. Hopefully this shows you that they can dictate most work rules to you and you have to accept it or move on.

They are saying, well hey, you can bid the EMB early and may 70 bucks in your first year. What they decline to mention is this is the kind of degredation of the industry that hurts us all. When Richard Branson starts his non union, 5 year contract carrier, should we allow these guys access to union jumpseats? Just to make it a little easier for a few people to get to work?

The only way to get Jetblue to organize is to make it tough on them. Most Jetblue pilots are commuters, make them pay out of pocket to get to work or move to Jetblue cities. Put the pressure on them to organize... This is one of the few options ALPA has....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is amazing that professional pilots can have the social skills of a 5 year old.

It's Lord of the Flies baby. I have the conch shell! You want it? Come get it!!

 

[MercuryPilot]

The only way to get Jetblue to organize is to make it tough on them. Most Jetblue pilots are commuters, make them pay out of pocket to get to work or move to Jetblue cities. Put the pressure on them to organize... This is one of the few options ALPA has....

Misery really loves company doesn't it? Company's who have unions deserve unions. Our leadership doesn't deserve one. Organizing simply to catch a jumpseat is a ridiculous reason. Explain again why ALPA needs little JetBlue w/it's 72 airplanes so badly?

MP

 

[Blue Dude]

The only way to get Jetblue to organize is to make it tough on them. Most Jetblue pilots are commuters, make them pay out of pocket to get to work or move to Jetblue cities. Put the pressure on them to organize... This is one of the few options ALPA has....

And it makes ALPA look oh so attractive to us poor "unorganized" schlubs. So you're saying that as soon as JetBlue organizes, your largesse will flow freely, eh? How generous of you.

Most pilots, at ALL airlines, don't want to make the jumpseat political, since pilots don't own the jumpseat. The company does. My fear is that if the jumpseat becomes a political tool, we will all lose it. Moreover, the jumpseat is available largely because of the principle of professional courtesy. As soon as you become the self appointed arbiter of who is "professional" and who is not, in defiance of negotiated reciprocal agreements, you put the whole program in jeopardy.

How long would it take for reciprocal agreements to break down and we all start paying to ride offline? And how long will your oh so generous managements put up with such foolishness on their own aircraft?

BTW, I ride online to work, so it's no skin off my back either way. But I carry many, many offline jumpseaters, far more than I will ever have the opportunity to claim my "fair share" of reciprocal courtesy. I am a giver into the system, not a taker. That's how it's supposed to work. But as soon as the givers begin putting their own personal spin on the process, denying jumpseats because their buddies keep getting denied, it will break down. Is that what you really want? We as an industry have enough problems without creating a personal war between pilots.

 

[Dizel8]

I know AA, UAL, DAL, U, NWA, CAL pilots were pissed when the concessionary rates were published, but after alot of huffing and puffing, the end result was the same. Management pretended to listen, but then paid at the new rates. Hopefully this shows you that they can dictate most work rules to you and you have to accept it or move on.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

I can't believe how this thread has digressed from a few malcontents who are making the rest of the stand up, good guys at UA look stupid, to let's not fly anybody without a union card in the jumpseats. If your union wants to make an impact and send a message, why don't you guys organize a one day national strike to send a message to Congress that the union pilots have had enough and are not going to take it anymore. Oh yeah, our contract says that we would be in violation and ALPA could get in big trouble. Now we wouldn't want that to happen. So you know what, it's easier to blame to little guys for our troubles hid in the corners throwing rocks at these guys. I don't know how many guys I have helped to get a job here or other places after their organized labor let them down. They all don't seem to be complaining. Their bills are getting paid and their families are being taken care of. So if you want to deny me a jumpseat because I don't have a union card, guess what, I've got two. Both current and in good standing.

BTW, you're still all welcome on all 158 jumpseats in my aircraft.

 

[Dizel8]

"I am not saying not be friends with nonunion members, just not give them access to the jumpseat."

Let me know how that works out for you, I mean the friend thing and all after you deny your "friends" a jumpseat.

 

[habubuaza]

To all those in favor of using the jumpseat as a political tool I say go ahead....Do it!! Really, just go ahead and make life difficult for a poor slob just trying to get home or trying to get to work. You know something? I've been furloughed 3 times in the past few years post 9/11. I have also held several jobs and if there is one thing that I've learned in this industry it's this..... It's small. It's a small community and it's very likely that what goes around, comes around..with a vengance. Right now, right this minute I know guys who are laid off, and can't find a job, you know why..? Because they were pricks at their previous jobs. And people don't forget... Go ahead and be an a$$hole see how quickly your name spreads through this industry. Then pray to GOD that your job lasts and your not in a position to have to look for work. Believe me, the guy you disrespect today, may be the guy you sit in front of during an interview tomorrow. I am seeing it right now. Don't be a d1ck with the jumpseat. As a matter of fact don't be a d1ck at all, the industry is just too small and fragile to be making enemies out there. Union organization is a group effort, and to single out one individual and make their life difficult is nothing short of obnoxious.

 

[jetblue320]

To all those in favor of using the jumpseat as a political tool I say go ahead....Do it!! Really, just go ahead and make life difficult for a poor slob just trying to get home or trying to get to work. You know something? I've been furloughed 3 times in the past few years post 9/11. I have also held several jobs and if there is one thing that I've learned in this industry it's this..... It's small. It's a small community and it's very likely that what goes around, comes around..with a vengance. Right now, right this minute I know guys who are laid off, and can't find a job, you know why..? Because they were pricks at their previous jobs. And people don't forget... Go ahead and be an a$$hole see how quickly your name spreads through this industry. Then pray to GOD that your job lasts and your not in a position to have to look for work. Believe me, the guy you disrespect today, may be the guy you sit in front of during an interview tomorrow. I am seeing it right now. Don't be a d1ck with the jumpseat. As a matter of fact don't be a d1ck at all, the industry is just too small and fragile to be making enemies out there. Union organization is a group effort, and to single out one individual and make their life difficult is nothing short of obnoxious.

That has got to be one of the most sensible posts I have seen in a while here!

Thank you.

Back to lurk mode.

C yaaaa

 

[crazee8]

habubuaza:

You nailed it shut and drove it home. After being furloughed twice, I understand totally why you don't burn bridges. I used those bridges that I left intact to keep me afloat.

 

[Mach 80]

Regarding burning bridges -- years ago when one of my former employer's went bankrupt, one of my friends who worked with me had a chief pilot friend at a smaller carrier and immediately got hired there. The chief pilot had a huge stack of resumes from my fellow, now on the street, pilots. The chief pilot told my friend to go through them and put the as*hol*s' applications/resumes in the garbage and keep the good guys for him to bring in to interview.

Another friend of mine who flew for Southwest was in the reserves and used to catch a bunch of crap from his UAL and Delta reserve buddies shortly before 9-11 who would arrogantly asked him if he "was building time at Southwest to come to work at their airline?", "When are you coming to work at a REAL airline?", "How could you stand to fly 737s your entire career?", "He ought to come to an airline with a "guaranteed" retirement" and various other insults. Now those guys are asking him for letters of reccommendation for Southwest. He is refusing to do it for the most arrogant of the bunch.

I am also amused at something in the April issue of ALPA's "Airline Pilot" magazine. On page 35 they have a chart of airline hiring and mention that Continental, NWA, and United have recently recalled furloughees and Continental and FedEx have both *indicated* plans to hire additional pilots. Funny that they don't mention the fact that Southwest and Jetblue have been hiring plenty. Could it possibly be because they are not ALPA airlines??

Oh, is the expert Kit Darby STILL calling Southwest a "2nd tier airline" as he was a few years ago?

PS - Is it a requirement to have a mustache to be a national officer in ALPA?

 

[TooBad]

Diamond,

I am not saying not be friends with nonunion members, just not give them access to the jumpseat. I know alot of folks at Jetblue are ex ALPA furloughees, but this isn't personal. I have many good friends that work there, and I tell them the same thing myself. If they want access to the large network carriers jumpseats, then organize. I know Jetblue pilots were pissed when the EMB rates were published, but after alot of huffing and puffing, the end result was the same. Management pretended to listen, but then paid at Comair rates. Hopefully this shows you that they can dictate most work rules to you and you have to accept it or move on.

They are saying, well hey, you can bid the EMB early and may 70 bucks in your first year. What they decline to mention is this is the kind of degredation of the industry that hurts us all. When Richard Branson starts his non union, 5 year contract carrier, should we allow these guys access to union jumpseats? Just to make it a little easier for a few people to get to work?

The only way to get Jetblue to organize is to make it tough on them. Most Jetblue pilots are commuters, make them pay out of pocket to get to work or move to Jetblue cities. Put the pressure on them to organize... This is one of the few options ALPA has....

Yea, and I'm sure ALPA has done wonders for you too. Right?

 

[IB6 UB9]

Denied early yesterday on NWA. Nice.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Denying the jumpseat when your MEC says don't??? That is not "encouraging" anyone to form a union and is not punishment for wrong doing. It is mean spirited and a form of acting out. Get therapy. I bet the rocket scientists doing this live in domicile and are close to retirement. No way to get THEM back!

Management is laughing all the way to the bank when we go around treating each other badly.

This only results in more denials as "payback" from the other carriers. It will get more painful for commuters before it gets better unless these guys are stopped.

 

[TooBad]

Denied early yesterday on NWA. Nice.

Were you going to DTW?

What happened?

 

[IB6 UB9]

Were you going to DTW?

What happened?

MSP to LGA, A319. Was given the jumpseat only to have the Captain approach me minutes later saying he was going to block one jumpseat off and put one of their own positive space deadheading crewmembers up there to free up a seat for a paying passenger. He said "better luck on the next one". I watched the aircraft push back with empty jumpseats, then made it to NY 8 hours later and after the departure time for my original trip. Gratefully we work for a company that is easy to work with when this happens.

 

[wndshr]

Furloughed dude,

Let it go..... jetBlue will let you reinterview in another 6 months. Good luck.

He is gonna need more than 6000 hours of time!!!! LOL!!! Unfortunately, his flight time shows direct correlation to his comments....another FNG to the airline industry i guess!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

That's because you're the source of all NWA'a problems .

It's really funny that an airline with such a militant union has swallowed that bunch of garbage, which essentially lets their management off the hook.

No, it's not that they took a gamble and decided to keep 30 year-old gas-guzzlers on the property, a failure to hedge, 9-11, or lousy revenues with the other legacy carriers not willing to match fare increases.

No, it's those bad ol' LCC that are to blame, and their pilots.

GMAFB.

 

[Andy]

MSP to LGA, A319. Was given the jumpseat only to have the Captain approach me minutes later saying he was going to block one jumpseat off and put one of their own positive space deadheading crewmembers up there to free up a seat for a paying passenger. He said "better luck on the next one". I watched the aircraft push back with empty jumpseats, then made it to NY 8 hours later and after the departure time for my original trip. Gratefully we work for a company that is easy to work with when this happens.

So you weren't denied the jumpseat; you were bumped off of it by a NWA employee. You were initially given the jumpseat, but the NWA employee has a higher priority.
While you may disagree with the captain's decision, he is trying to make sure that the passengers who paid for tickets do not get inconvenienced.
I've been denied jumpseats many a time due to another pilot bumping me off of it; I don't consider it a denial of the jumpseat.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

I think IB6 UB9's point is that he/she was bumped for an employee to sit in the jumpseat so to get a revenue passenger on. Then, he/she watched the aircraft leave with the jumpseat empty.

I think the implication was that the captain made up the story to have a reason to deny the jumpseat.

My interpretation of the post -- maybe I'm off-base.

 

[Dizel8]

Not that I know much, but does the NWA 319 not have two jumpseats up front?

 

[skykid]

AAFlyer, I took your advice and took a look around. You will not have a defined pension by the end of this decade. I don't like it either, but you might as well realize it now.

Associated Press
American Airlines May Need More Concessions
Friday March 18, 10:43 pm ET
American Airlines May Need More Worker Concessions Due to Cash Crunch, Agency Says


FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) -- A cash crunch could force American Airlines to seek more employee concessions by year's end, a credit ratings agency has warned.
The report was issued this week by Chicago-based Fitch Ratings, which lowered its outlook on American's debt to "negative" from "stable." The firm predicted Fort Worth-based American's cash reserve could get squeezed in 2006 unless fuel prices drop, costs go down or revenue improves...

 

[Mugs]

Interesting,

While I do not care for the wages at JB, or should say the EJET payscale.
It would be easy to say that UAL and USAIR pilot have done more damage "to the profession" recently.

Take a look at Us and UAs pay scale. The terminated pensions. This is putting the hurt to my pay and pension not JB. Hell U pilots on an aircraft average make less than JB now.

UA continues to offer cheap tickets and not pay it's bills in ORD while other companies like AMR continue payments to it's pension and pays their bills.

UA has been hiding under BK for over 2 years and they still need more time to organize a business plan. WTFO!!!

I am not going to even go into the outsourcing of flying. The end terminal at ORD had 6-9 E-170s in UAL colors parked at UAL gates.

Good thing I don't use the jumpseat politically. We could all point fingers and nobody would be in the jumpseat. In the end there are only a handful of pilots that would risk it all to better the profession, the others will do whats best for them.

AA

So if UAL and U had shut down 2 years ago, AMR could have returned to the old way of doing business and happily serviced its astronomical debt load while paying for your pension plan and preserving your payscale right? No low cost competition would have built in UAL / U's wake, and customers would have gladly paid big bucks for the privilege of flying nonstop from ORD to the West Coast on an MD80 instead of doing the same on a 737 out of MDW for much less. Thousands of out of work pilots would have exited the business never to return out of fear that going to work for an upstart and competeing with AMR might once again threaten the AMR pensions. Not to mention, the pilots working for Eagle that love you guys so much would never want to leave the AMR world and do anything else.

Get your head out of the sand.

 

[skykid]

If fuel had been where it was in 2003, AA would have made money in 2004.

AAflyer, don't you think that was a little too obvious to even post? Vanguard would have been in the black under those conditions, and they don't even exist anymore.

You don't want to have to explain to me that there is a difference between the LCC model and the Legacies? That's the unfortunate point!! The LCCs are setting the price domestically, Legacies wont survive without a strong domestic presence, Legacies therefore have to adapt to compete domestically. Less pay, less benefits, no PENSIONS.

 

[reachpilot]

I am continually amazed at the lack of professionalism in this industry. We are flying airplanes for a living, it is not brain science or rocket surgery! The pilots that are denying their jumpseats for political reasons need to get over themselves. I am carrying the ALPA card and I am not impressed with the organization at all. ALPA president is making 1/2 million a year and I practically qualify for food stamps. That is an organization you can be proud of! Whatever. Everyone is always welcome on my jumpseats. You can even have the left front seat and I will sit in back and have a diet coke.

 

[8vATE]

NWA Pilots also denying jumpseats...

Seems like the NWA group is also building a reputation for denying jetblue jumpseats...

 

[tailhookah]

Professionalism....

That's what this is all about... or lack of it. We all boast on this forum about being professional pilots yet then get in petty arguments about joining the "frat" or not joining the frat. The union should not be used as a tool to get in the way of being a professional pilot. Politics aside the system only works w/ reciprocating jumpseats on all sides. Why haven't ALPA guys denied jumpseats to APA guys or SWAPA guys or Frontier guys....they are unionized but not ALPA. ALPA came about for safety reasons and protection from out of control managements. If a company doesn't need ALPA's support because of good working relations then what's the big beef? Do you really enjoy paying ALPA/Duane Worth 2-3% of your paycheck??? That money could be going towards your retirement... frankly ALPA's income from me hasn't done me any good. I'm personally a furloughed ALPA guy and quite frankly would never let ALPA or non-ALPA ever get in the way of making a professional decision. Just because jetBlue is making a profit and the pilot wages are seen as a detriment to the rest of the industry doesn't make it jetBlue's fault that the legacy carriers are failing. They are failing because the environment has changed mainly due to the internet and managements inability to adapt while raping labor for more stock options, country club rights and bone-us's.... there are no secrets left in ticket pricing and the consumer knows exactly what the cheapest fares are... no longer are ticket agents and travel agents able to hoard the information. The legacy's are a broken business model and need major management restructuring.... labor has given enough, too much in my opinion. JetBlue is still the new kid in town and getting all the press.... no one was bitching about southwest low pay rates in the 90's or frontiers payrates today..... all in all it's just not right to deny B6 guys from jumpseats when a lot of B6 guys are furloughed....alpa should be happy furloughed guys are working.... but that's not always the case in an organization who, like the democratic party thinks the common person can't make a sound decision for themselves.....